Should Christians own weapons?

[howard]

Luke 6:30-32 (KJV)
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. [31] And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. [32] For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Luke 6:33-34 (KJV)
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. [34] And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

 

[howard]

Luke 6:35-38 (KJV)
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. [36] Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. [37] Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: [38] Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

that word love means a lot to the servants of God.

Remember vengeance is the Lords.

 

[howard]

Perhaps my point is that there is no definite answer to the question 'should a Christian own a weapon', which applies to every believer. Those who are, or who are to be a part of the Body of Christ will each have his function, but those functions will not all be the same:

"For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:14

"If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." I Cor 12:17-18

Actually, there is a definite answer

Romans 12:19 (KJV)Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

what purpose is a weapon needed if Jesus issues out vengeance

 

[howard]

Howard, your erratic postings show very little self-control. The fruit of the Spirit includes self-control. Shotgunning a million scriptures (many out of context) in a frantic manner is also an unwise manner to reprove, if you really feel called to reprove on this matter.

Also, implicating God in the evil of this world is a very wicked notion you need to repent of. I say this in love. God is light. In Him there is no darkness. His creation, however, has taken its freewill and done evil.

Let's consider the "civil authorities" scripture you pointed to. There isn't one scripture that suggests a person must seek out a civil authority to help them. Not one (the persistent widow is an analogy for how God will deliver much better than a person could) . Those scriptures are about obeying the laws of the civil authorities. God has blessed this nation with the ability to defend oneself. That is a mandated law from the civil authorities, no? It was established by God.

Granted, Satan wants to destroy all these blessings, and many people of this nation have wandered away from God and we are now beginning to reap the harvest of evil we have sown as a nation, but the 2nd Amendment still stands for a reason: Because God ordained it for our nation (one of the most blessed nations in the history of mankind).

There is no measure of change in God, or shadow due to variation. He does not change. In the Book of Exodus, Father God states that:

Exodus 22
2 If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

He continued:

Exodus 22
3 but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him.

Why would Father God suggest this? There are times when a threat to safety can be dealt with deadly force, and there are times when it would not be appropriate.

If you pull into your driveway, and a man is coming out of your home with your television under your arm, and you know your family is safe, you would not be justified in shooting him. On the other hand, if a man (or men) kicked in your back door at 3am, and there were vulnerable women and children the Lord has put in your charge to take care of, you would not only be justified in defending them, you would be obligated to protect them.

Consider this scripture:

1 Timothy 5
8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

You see, Howard, you're taking your doctrine too far. You would be much like a man who says, "Forget feeding and clothing my family, I will spend every dime I have on spreading the gospel!" Meanwhile, when your family goes hungry and uncared for, you are actually accounted worse than an unbeliever in the eyes of the Lord.

Knowledge without wisdom is dangerous, Howard. If you presume yourself a teacher, know that you will be judged more strictly.

The doctrine of Christian pacifism only relates to persecution and suffering for His namesake. Wanton violence and random lawlessness are not to be met with apathy and helplessness. And realistically, Christians who own guns certainly don't "live" by their gun like criminals do.

In the end, we are called to be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves. If this is a conviction for you, perhaps the Lord has a reason. But it's not doctrinally sound to insist all Christians should disarm.

Not!

Romans 12:19 (KJV)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

a servant of God need a weapon. Vengeance belongs to The Lord

the Lord told you to love your enemies

the scriptures I put all relate to the topic so it's not my opinion or your EMOTIONS

let emphasize vengeance belongs to The Lord

no weapon is needed to protect yourself

why
Genesis 15:1 (KJV)
After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Psalm 3:3 (KJV)
But thou, O Lord , art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.

 

[howard]

Howard, your erratic postings show very little self-control. The fruit of the Spirit includes self-control. Shotgunning a million scriptures (many out of context) in a frantic manner is also an unwise manner to reprove, if you really feel called to reprove on this matter.

Also, implicating God in the evil of this world is a very wicked notion you need to repent of. I say this in love. God is light. In Him there is no darkness. His creation, however, has taken its freewill and done evil.

Let's consider the "civil authorities" scripture you pointed to. There isn't one scripture that suggests a person must seek out a civil authority to help them. Not one (the persistent widow is an analogy for how God will deliver much better than a person could) . Those scriptures are about obeying the laws of the civil authorities. God has blessed this nation with the ability to defend oneself. That is a mandated law from the civil authorities, no? It was established by God.

Granted, Satan wants to destroy all these blessings, and many people of this nation have wandered away from God and we are now beginning to reap the harvest of evil we have sown as a nation, but the 2nd Amendment still stands for a reason: Because God ordained it for our nation (one of the most blessed nations in the history of mankind).

There is no measure of change in God, or shadow due to variation. He does not change. In the Book of Exodus, Father God states that:

Exodus 22
2 If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

He continued:

Exodus 22
3 but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him.

Why would Father God suggest this? There are times when a threat to safety can be dealt with deadly force, and there are times when it would not be appropriate.

If you pull into your driveway, and a man is coming out of your home with your television under your arm, and you know your family is safe, you would not be justified in shooting him. On the other hand, if a man (or men) kicked in your back door at 3am, and there were vulnerable women and children the Lord has put in your charge to take care of, you would not only be justified in defending them, you would be obligated to protect them.

Consider this scripture:

1 Timothy 5
8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

You see, Howard, you're taking your doctrine too far. You would be much like a man who says, "Forget feeding and clothing my family, I will spend every dime I have on spreading the gospel!" Meanwhile, when your family goes hungry and uncared for, you are actually accounted worse than an unbeliever in the eyes of the Lord.

Knowledge without wisdom is dangerous, Howard. If you presume yourself a teacher, know that you will be judged more strictly.

The doctrine of Christian pacifism only relates to persecution and suffering for His namesake. Wanton violence and random lawlessness are not to be met with apathy and helplessness. And realistically, Christians who own guns certainly don't "live" by their gun like criminals do.

In the end, we are called to be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves. If this is a conviction for you, perhaps the Lord has a reason. But it's not doctrinally sound to insist all Christians should disarm.

I don't have a doctrine what I have is the word of God which you can't defend this culture of killing and violence against
Pay attention to what satan said to Jesus

Luke 4:5-7 (KJV)
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. [6] And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. [7] If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

all the kingdom of the world includes the USA.

also keep this in mind God's commandments supersedes any nations constitution, God's words supersedes mans laws.

listen to these words from Jesus mouth

Luke 4:4 (KJV)
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Servants of God don't live by weapons of death we live by the word of God

 

[amadeus2]

Actually, there is a definite answer

Romans 12:19 (KJV)Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

what purpose is a weapon needed if Jesus issues out vengeance

Yes, as we see in the OT this same God that never changes, used people to bring vengeance on those who required it. The people used natural weapons, did they not?

One question perhaps we could ask today, is whether or not it is OK for police officers to have weapons. If it is allowable for there to be police officers, should those officer whose concern should be maintaining physical peace, how is he to do his job?

Does not God use people to do His work... including vengeance? Did He not use Pharaoh and Nebuchednezzar? Were they not in a sense, his weapons? Did they not their armies use physical weapons to accomplish God's purposes?

Did King David not command the death of the man who claimed to have killed God's anointed (Saul)? Was David out of God's will in that?

 

[howard]

Also, in regards to Peter, I agree he was not known to carry a weapon. Additionally, he dealt with innumerable assaults as an ambassador for Christ. However, he was a single man who had no family to look after and protect. Peter, however, was known to carry a sword. He did have a wife and family. Perhaps that's worth considering?

Understand this
Luke 22:31 (KJV)
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

so much for the sword Peter carried.

Why

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places .


The sword Peter and all Jesus servants need is this

Ephesians 6:13-17 (KJV)
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

the sword we are to carry is the word of God

 

[howard]

Yes, as we see in the OT this same God that never changes, used people to bring vengeance on those who required it. The people used natural weapons, did they not?

One question perhaps we could ask today, is whether or not it is OK for police officers to have weapons. If it is allowable for there to be police officers, should those officer whose concern should be maintaining physical peace, how is he to do his job?

Does not God use people to do His work... including vengeance? Did He not use Pharaoh and Nebuchednezzar? Were they not in a sense, his weapons? Did they not their armies use physical weapons to accomplish God's purposes?

Did King David not command the death of the man who claimed to have killed God's anointed (Saul)? Was David out of God's will in that?

Do a servant of God need a weapon?

do you really think God need to use a man to his work?

watch this

Genesis 6:17 (KJV)
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

This was a whole world.

Lets look at a country

Psalm 78:50 (KJV)
He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

Noah did not have a weapon.
The children of Israel did not use a weapon

do a servant of God need a weapon?

 

[howard]

Yes, as we see in the OT this same God that never changes, used people to bring vengeance on those who required it. The people used natural weapons, did they not?

One question perhaps we could ask today, is whether or not it is OK for police officers to have weapons. If it is allowable for there to be police officers, should those officer whose concern should be maintaining physical peace, how is he to do his job?

Does not God use people to do His work... including vengeance? Did He not use Pharaoh and Nebuchednezzar? Were they not in a sense, his weapons? Did they not their armies use physical weapons to accomplish God's purposes?

Did King David not command the death of the man who claimed to have killed God's anointed (Saul)? Was David out of God's will in that?

Because David had blood on his hand he could not build The Lord Holy Temple
Also did David really need a weapon or needed to kill

Understand what you are about to read next.

2 Samuel 12:8 (KJV)
And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

 

[howard]

I am not going to sift through all your posts to point out your mishandling of the word, I will simply point out this one as a glaring example:

The people God is referring to in that scripture, are spiritual leaders of the local church congregation. You've misapplied the scripture to be for civil authorities, which it absolutely is not. Please go back a few scriptures to see who "they" are (emphasis mine):


Hebrews 13
7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

because you don't understand you assume

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

the Mayor
the Governor
the senator.
The president

It's not hard to understand when emotions are not attached

 

[howard]

Good points, B.A.C. We are called to have wisdom and faith. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Ecclesiastes 9:18 (KJV)
Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

 

[howard]

Lets read a little more to see if it says blow the mans head off or take revenge

Exodus 22:2-4 (KJV)
If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. [3] If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. [4] If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or donkey, or sheep; he shall restore double.

Nope!! It says restore

"Smitten that he die", might qualify as getting their head blown off here.
The second part of the verses says "if he is found alive", then he shall restore.
=================================================================================
Now I ask again what can our weapons really do when The Lord send a evil spirit upon his servant for whatever reason?

what?

What could Job have done other than pray!

These days we have a few more options than Job did.
Mark 16:17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."

Still you have a point, a gun would do little against a demon. But I'm guessing the odds of a demon breaking into my house or slightly lower than a human.
Anything I can't handle spiritually, I know someone who can. Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34
==================================================================================
God protects my family this is why I don't need a weapon. I trust in God with all my mind and body?

I wonder do you ever go to the grocery store? Why, doesn't God provide food for you? Does manna fall from heaven for you?
Do you ever go to the gas station? Why, doesn't God provide gas in your gas tank?
Do you ever go to the doctor or dentist? Why?

God expects us to do certain things. Even if we trust him.
==================================================================================
Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Just a note here on Luke 22:36; The Bible doesn't usually mix metaphors.
In Eph 6, we see the armor of God (even the sword) is obviously being used metaphorically.
(i.e. shield of faith, helmet of salvation, breastplate of faith, etc...)
In Luke 22, it doesn't appear the money-belt, bag, and coat are metaphors, so why would the sword be one?

you really don't get it do you?

listen again

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 (KJV)
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Your weapon is carnal as is the person who carries it

again

Ephesians 6:11-12 (KJV)
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places .

you use of a weapon is not against flesh but against the spirit that controls that flesh

 

[howard]

Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

are we not back to these times?

 

[howard]

Interesting thread, very contentious.
I will take a shot at the question and see if I can hit the mark.

"The weapons of our warfare are not ....."

I'll shoot from the hip and take no prisoners.


"if someone strikes you on the cheek..."


Remember to aim high and don't go off half cocked.

Hope I have not jumped the gun with my opinion.

Emotions have crept into the conversation well as you can see I copy and paste the verses and let The Lord do the talking.

Finish the verses ad don't want anyone saying you are mishandling the word of God
I get it and when you read the verses there is no room for a weapon!

AMEN

 

[faithfulservant]

Luke 6:27-29 (KJV)
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, [28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. [29] And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Love you enemies.
If he smite thee on the cheek offer the other cheek.
Don't blow there head off.
if the come to steal your cloak or DVD player offer them the coat and tv.
don't blow his head off

Howard, if it were in your power to stop evil (the abduction of a child, the rape of a woman, the beating death of a victim in the road, whatever) you would simply pray, watch it happen, and do nothing assuming that's God's will?

I see again, Howard, you're shotgunning scriptures without self-control. It appears you love controversy, Howard, I am officially warning you for the first time to stop inflicting these judgmental attacks upon the brethren. It is of no profit, but ruins the hearers.

I have a special scripture for you, Howard:

2 Timothy 2
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

 

[faithfulservant]

Emotions have crept into the conversation well as you can see I copy and paste the verses and let The Lord do the talking.

Finish the verses ad don't want anyone saying you are mishandling the word of God
I get it and when you read the verses there is no room for a weapon!

AMEN

You're not "rightly dividing" God's word. But you presume to be a teacher. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean you should stand by while innocent, vulnerable people get assaulted and/or murdered.

 

[howard]

Howard, if it were in your power to stop evil (the abduction of a child, the rape of a woman, the beating death of a victim in the road, whatever) you would simply pray, watch it happen, and do nothing assuming that's God's will?

I see again, Howard, you're shotgunning scriptures without self-control. It appears you love controversy, Howard, I am officially warning you for the first time to stop inflicting these judgmental attacks upon the brethren. It is of no profit, but ruins the hearers.

I have a special scripture for you, Howard:

2 Timothy 2
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

how many times have you heard a innocent bystander seeing someone get rape or a child abducted?
You don't

a wicked person will do his wickedness where there is no opposition around.

lets read how to read and understand God's word

Isaiah 28:10-13 (KJV)
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: [11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. [13] But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Its not shot gunning its something most Christians don't know because they have not been taught
We read God's word line upon line and precept upon precept here a little and there a little.

by the way there is no quarrel

if their was one I would use this verse on you


Jude 1:3 (KJV)
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

contend for the faith

 

[howard]

You're not "rightly dividing" God's word. But you presume to be a teacher. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean you should stand by while innocent, vulnerable people get assaulted and/or murdered.

Where did I say I presumed to be anything except a servant of God and why did you add your opinion to the turn the other cheek verses? Show me where it say what you just said?

 

[faithfulservant]

Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

are we not back to these times?

You judge the the brethren in this thread implying their hearts are continually full of evil? There is no love in your posts. I discern you enjoy this and all the attention it's drawn. I pray Father God humbles your heart, that you may not hurt His children any further on this matter. In Jesus' name I pray.

 

[howard]

You judge the the brethren in this thread implying their hearts are continually full of evil? There is no love in your posts. I discern you enjoy this and all the attention it's drawn. I pray Father God humbles your heart, that you may not hurt His children any further on this matter. In Jesus' name I pray.

Why can't you answer the topic and stop trying to focus on me. I have not accused the people of this thread of anything. You cannot answer the thread with the word of God. So you try to attack the messenger instead of the message.

PAy close attention and answer the verses and do not direct your attacks at me

Vengeance is The Lord he will repay.

Who told you to take matters into your own hands ?