Should Christians own weapons?

[brhal]

Where does this say anything about doing harm to anyone?

 

[brhal]

All of your focus is on here and now.

 

[brhal]

Do harm to no man.

 

[brhal]

A true expression of free will.

 

[brhal]

The soldiers came out to John the Baptist and ask of him 'what should we do'. He told them three things: not to frame anyone; be satisfied with their wages; and do violence to no man.

 

[Francis Drake]

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do we have a purer
more righteous
justified
replacement for the Gospel that the Apostle Paul had
where he said
16I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 2Corinthians 11:16-29
and
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:7-10

is the Church (Christians) a western thing?
the attack
or mind-rape
given against all
suggests that the writer has forgotten that we are not commanded to own cars
have riches worth stealing
or even live a life that beckons sickness and therefore the use of medicines
the Gospel
the glorious Gospel was and is for all
not just the western world
so many in this world do not have access to police
to medications
to cars
to valuables
and many do not even have homes to lock up
why talk about insurance policies to a Church
that is in the world
but not of the world

ever been raped?
did you even have a husband to think about at the time
or perhaps it was your husband hurting you
speak your mind but be careful
more careful
that you stick to truth
and to remember those in bonds
for the Gospel sake

when the words came
turn the other cheek
to whom were they spoken
and what of the real threats of the time they lived in?
the modern church
western and entangled in the world and its cares is so distant from what and who the Lord spoke about

the Church is one
as He is One
and stands out as a light in the darkness
the darkness resists and fights against it
it exposes darkness
the Church was and is persecuted
and yet on display
turn the other cheek was and is a directive with good reason
as said in my earlier post
what of those in distant lands to the average TalkJesus writer
if one retaliates
the whole suffers
as with the early Church
a display by one reflects the whole

and what will and does our reactions speak to the lost
to the enemy
to those walking in darkness
what Gospel does it preach?
at a time when the Church was always a potential and real target for severe persecution
when the arenas were filled with blood
and pain
when soldiers were a law you could not resist
when some were able to do as they wanted against others without care
as in apartheid
racial or social segregation
injustice
oppression
no rights
what real benefit is there
or was there in retaliation
when imprisoned
and weak
a minority

even non-christians know that retaliation usually ends in a bigger nastier fight
or a sudden and hurtful end

attacking pacifists does not address the ownership of weapons
it merely aims at those who would prefer to live and love as Christians
in this world
but not of it

you do not need to own a weapon to react with force or violence or to use something in such a way that it becomes a weapon

unless we look at the Church as it was
how it has been throughout the ages since its beginning
and even today
where most of the Body is not in a material world with 911‘s or 000‘s or even 007‘s
and unless we also remember the futility of most people attempting to overpower and fight against the attackers who themselves often have weapons and support
remembering that not all are superheros and muscle-clad fighters and warriors
but mothers
sisters
brothers and average men and sons
and unless we put the Gospel into the place it is
against persecution and oppression
we can overlook the meaning and validity of
turn the other cheek
but we also can
we can
we surely can
react and desire to react in a way that spreads the Glorious Gospel
instead of just being another thing that happens in this world
we need to 3ncourage each other that we can
we can
and we know we can
because of who we are
and most surely because of Who our Lord is
and build each other up
to be able to be examples of the Gospel in every area of our lives

the world watches
the world sees what those who profess to be Christians do
and say
and our part is to put the Gospel and upholding it
(not putting it under a table or bushel)
first in our priorities
trusting Him
and to be brave and not cowardly
knowing the power of the life of the Gospel in us
(being a pacifist is actually a lot braver than is often thought)
but we can be strong in the Lord
and allow Him to be that strength in weakness

let His peace guide and rule you, both now and ever
resist worldly reasoning and worldly excuses
we have something much better
and enduring
steadfast and sure
encourage one another
in love
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Matthew 5:45a
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Peter 2:21-25
10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Corinthians 4:10-13

Eddy, is there any chance you could write in normal easy readable paragraphs.
I am not sure whether I am the only one who thinks this, but whatever it is you have written here, its far too tedious for me to read when laid out like that. It could be that your comment is excellent, but it certainly remains unread by me.

 

[Eddy Fire]

Forgiving and being forgiven are two names for the same thing. The important thing is that a discord has been resolved - C.S. Lewis

Eddy, is there any chance you could write in normal easy readable paragraphs.
I am not sure whether I am the only one who thinks this, but whatever it is you have written here, its far too tedious for me to read when laid out like that. It could be that your comment is excellent, but it certainly remains unread by me.

please forgive me Francis,
I most certainly did not want my post to be too tedious for you.

thank you for bringing my post to attention,sir.

and speaking of 'Sir', may I leave you with a quote?
“There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto the end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory.” - Sir Francis Drake

 

[faithfulservant]

The soldiers came out to John the Baptist and ask of him 'what should we do'. He told them three things: not to frame anyone; be satisfied with their wages; and do violence to no man.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, the Interlinear translation of Luke 3:14 which is word for word does not say "do violence to no man." The only translation I could find that does is a new "Aramaic" translation. But the New Testament was written in Greek, so I would not encourage someone to read a translation that gets that far from the original text. God's Word is pure. Dynamic translations, and one's that are creative in their interpretation get away from the truth and leaven the whole lump.

Secondly, it doesn't take the word for word translation to infer that John had no problem that they would remain soldiers. And as such, they would likely be required to use force in their line of duty. That's why they were asking, no? Perhaps with this newfound faith in Jesus they would be required to lay down their arms? Clearly, John tells them no such thing.

 

[faithfulservant]

Give me a moment of your attention to consider something:

God does not want lawlessness. It's His will that there are civil authorities in every nation and community to uphold the rule of law. But man is evil, and man uses his freewill to rebel against God. This is why Jesus exhorted us to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven. That's a major part of this spiritual battle. The freewill of man, led by the rebellion of Satan, is continually at odds with Father God's will for our world.

But knowing that God uses civil authorities to maintain order, what happens when there is a collapse and the authorities are unable/unwilling to maintain the rule of law in a community? Is it God's will that lawlessness would abound while municipalities flounder and people and communities are overtaken by criminal gangs?

We have missed the very heart of Father God if we don't recognize that He is all about protecting the vulnerable, oppressed, the weak.

My friends, it may shock you to know that lawlessness is exactly what's coming upon this nation. We are headed for an economic collapse orchestrated by Satan himself. I know many Christians have been prepared by God to help their communities maintain the rule of law when the local authorities will disappear and no longer offer services. Satan will be standing idly by while the masses get "softened" up from the violence and horror they will endure. Then, when he's ready, he's going to roll out the solutions to all these problems. It will be a global solution, of course, with a global leader. And the masses will flock to him seeking delieverance. There will be a price, but they will gladly take the mark to only be delivered from a nation in anarchy.

But there will be communities that will be safe. There will be cities set on the hill where the people live for Jesus. They will wake with praises for God, and go to sleep soundly with thoughts of God in their hearts. There will be watchmen, and the LORD will be with them. And while the world perishes, his faithful will live with blessings and peace awaiting the return of their King.

I am betting many people in this very thread will one day thank God for preparing other Christians to help defend and protect communities from random evil in an age of anarchy. If God is doing such a thing, and I know He is, do not get in the way of God. It is hard to kick against the goads. Do not judge a brother, because it is by his Master that he will stand or fall, and Jesus will be able to make him stand.

 

[Francis Drake]

Forgiving and being forgiven are two names for the same thing. The important thing is that a discord has been resolved - C.S. Lewis



please forgive me Francis,
I most certainly did not want my post to be too tedious for you.

thank you for bringing my post to attention,sir.

and speaking of 'Sir', may I leave you with a quote?
“There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto the end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory.” - Sir Francis Drake

Eddy Fire, thanks for your gracious response.
You obviously appreciate the real historic Francis Drake, how about this as a testimony of the man's deep and very real faithfulness. Drake was far more than the piratical figure of myth and legend. He was a real believer who did what he did because of conviction. He came from a family which had suffered at the hands of Catholic persecution.

"Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love." (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

You might also recollect that he was most happy to bear arms against those who would enslave Christians with their false religion. It is precisely this type of faith that inspires me to sail beyond accepted church boundaries.

 

[Brad Huber]

Do harm to no man.

When Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple, did he harm anyone in the slightest? Where you there? Have you ever felt a whip across your skin? When he spoke harsh words against the teachers of the law, words that were shaper than any two edged sword, was he harming them emotionally, or spiritually?

 

[Francis Drake]

I agree hekuran.

Francis Drake. You sound like a pharisee

Amanda, your response clearly shows that you either haven't read and understood my tongue in cheek post, or that you have absolutely no clue as to what a Pharisee is.

The Pharisees were the people who demanded obedience to every last bit of the law in order to become righteous. They added countless sub divisions to the law to ensure that there was no possibility of sin being found in them. They sought righteousness by their own "perfect" good works.

Jesus regularly took their methodology and demonstrated the shallowness of it. He proved that anyone claiming they were not an adulterer, were nevertheless adulterers already within their hearts. Likewise they were already murderers in their hearts because they all got angry.

It was never the intention of Jesus for believers to do these things in order to become either as "perfect" as the Pharisees or as perfect as God (Matt5v20 and v48). He was showing them the total futility of such nonsense.

My post was doing the same as what Jesus did. If legalistic Christians insist that we must turn the other cheek at every offense, then they must also apply the same nitty gritty doctrine in every single area. They cannot conveniently pick and choose where to apply these beliefs. They apply everywhere.
Hence, if truly turning the other cheek, they cannot then call police to do their dirty work for them. Neither can they ever claim an insurance policy if they have truly turned the other cheek. If anyone fails to do this, as we all do, then we must also pluck our eyes out, and chop our hands off. v29 and 30.

Note carefully that v29 and 30 (eyes and hands) are smack in the middle between v20 to 48. If you still insist on turning the other cheek, you cannot escape the equal application of v29 and 30 for failure, without being a total hypocrite. Unless you are an absolutely totally perfect person, you should by now be blind and without hands!

So Amanda, are you perfect? Can you truly rely on the success of your own righteous behaviour to avoid the knife and gouge?

Only a fool or a Pharisee would try to make what Jesus taught here into additional laws with which to obtain or keep righteousness.

I think that have I made it clear in my previous comment that I reject the Pharisaical doctrines which are being presented all through these comments.
Amanda, if you cannot comprehend my standpoint in these comments, and if you continue to support the general pacifist tone presented here, then you are being the Pharisee, not me. Please read the scriptures they quote in their full context.

As for me, any righteousness that I posses comes completely from what Jesus has done. I have none of my own. Nor do I strive to seek it.

 

[Francis Drake]

When Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple, did he harm anyone in the slightest? Where you there? Have you ever felt a whip across your skin? When he spoke harsh words against the teachers of the law, words that were shaper than any two edged sword, was he harming them emotionally, or spiritually?

Market traders tend to be a rough and ready bunch. They rarely have the famous "have a nice day" rules of the burger flippers.
Jesus was just one lone man, attacking a full market place consisting of an unknown number of traders. Do we imagine that these traders just sat by doing nothing whilst Jesus turned their tables over. With that amount of money stacked on the tables, do we honestly imagine that there were no armed bodyguards around to prevent any trouble?

It would be but a moment before Jesus was violently set upon. I suspect that many of them also felt the whip of Jesus somewhere across their bodies.They in turn would have used any weapons they had to prevent him getting past the attack on the first trader's table. They would not be gentle either. They didn't need to think about the human rights of the criminal, neither would they be bothered about excess violence. It would matter nothing if he was killed, other than maybe the religious leaders would not want blood on "holy" ground.
So if Jesus was to achieve anything he plainly could not have turned the other cheek. Jesus, having been a builder in his earlier life, must have used his human strength against them otherwise taking the whip would have been stupidly pointless.

Now to take this point further. Why did Jesus even bother about the traders in the temple?
The action of the traders in the temple was the just same as a slap on the cheek to God. If Jesus expects us to turn the other cheek, why didn't he turn the other cheek to the traders? Why didn't Jesus just turn the other cheek?

 

[WaterRock]

The answer my friend is blowing in the Wind

The action of the traders in the temple was the just same as a slap on the cheek to God. If Jesus expects us to turn the other cheek, why didn't he turn the other cheek to the traders? Why didn't Jesus just turn the other cheek?

The disciple is not above his master: Luke 6:40

Have you asked Jesus why he didn't just turn the other cheek?

It's kinda like the motta inf the Marines and my Mom, "I might not be right, but I am never wrong!"

 

[Francis Drake]

The soldiers came out to John the Baptist and ask of him 'what should we do'. He told them three things: not to frame anyone; be satisfied with their wages; and do violence to no man.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, the Interlinear translation of Luke 3:14 which is word for word does not say "do violence to no man." The only translation I could find that does is a new "Aramaic" translation. But the New Testament was written in Greek, so I would not encourage someone to read a translation that gets that far from the original text. God's Word is pure. Dynamic translations, and one's that are creative in their interpretation get away from the truth and leaven the whole lump.

Secondly, it doesn't take the word for word translation to infer that John had no problem that they would remain soldiers. And as such, they would likely be required to use force in their line of duty. That's why they were asking, no? Perhaps with this newfound faith in Jesus they would be required to lay down their arms? Clearly, John tells them no such thing.

Agreed.
As soldiers, violence was a requirement. As soldiers they were in many ways a slave to their master Caesar or Herod. If they had simply refused to fight, then undoubtedly they would immediately have been executed by their commanders as an example to the rest.

 

[Francis Drake]

The disciple is not above his master: Luke 6:40

Have you asked Jesus why he didn't just turn the other cheek?

It's kinda like the motta inf the Marines and my Mom, "I might not be right, but I am never wrong!"

Gotcher WaterRock.

Now I understand completely what you are saying here. Luke6v40. The disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone that is perfect shall be as his teacher.

You obviously mean that we should all now make whips and drive out those who have turned the local churches into a den of thieves etc. Thanks for the stunning clarity of your response to my comment.

This is the conclusion of legalism!

 

[Francis Drake]

The disciple is not above his master: Luke 6:40

Have you asked Jesus why he didn't just turn the other cheek?

It's kinda like the motta inf the Marines and my Mom, "I might not be right, but I am never wrong!"

WaterRock, the actual answer here is that Jesus didn't simply obey a rule book. If he only did that, he would never have achieved what His Father required, and he certainly would never have been able to whip the money changers in the temple!

The sole motive in everything Jesus did was simply, "I only do what I see my Father in Heaven doing".

Never forget that the Law was given for Law breakers not for the righteous. The Law of Moses was merely a means of punishing evil people and keeping evil in check for the nation. It never made anyone righteous.

Turning the other cheek, never carrying or using a weapon, or sticking rigidly to any Law, never made anyone righteous.

A righteous man walks according to the leading of his spirit. Like Jesus, he does what the Father leads him to do.

 

[Francis Drake]

Give me a moment of your attention to consider something:

God does not want lawlessness. It's His will that there are civil authorities in every nation and community to uphold the rule of law. But man is evil, and man uses his freewill to rebel against God. This is why Jesus exhorted us to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven. That's a major part of this spiritual battle. The freewill of man, led by the rebellion of Satan, is continually at odds with Father God's will for our world.

But knowing that God uses civil authorities to maintain order, what happens when there is a collapse and the authorities are unable/unwilling to maintain the rule of law in a community? Is it God's will that lawlessness would abound while municipalities flounder and people and communities are overtaken by criminal gangs?

We have missed the very heart of Father God if we don't recognize that He is all about protecting the vulnerable, oppressed, the weak.

My friends, it may shock you to know that lawlessness is exactly what's coming upon this nation. We are headed for an economic collapse orchestrated by Satan himself. I know many Christians have been prepared by God to help their communities maintain the rule of law when the local authorities will disappear and no longer offer services. Satan will be standing idly by while the masses get "softened" up from the violence and horror they will endure. Then, when he's ready, he's going to roll out the solutions to all these problems. It will be a global solution, of course, with a global leader. And the masses will flock to him seeking delieverance. There will be a price, but they will gladly take the mark to only be delivered from a nation in anarchy.

But there will be communities that will be safe. There will be cities set on the hill where the people live for Jesus. They will wake with praises for God, and go to sleep soundly with thoughts of God in their hearts. There will be watchmen, and the LORD will be with them. And while the world perishes, his faithful will live with blessings and peace awaiting the return of their King.

I am betting many people in this very thread will one day thank God for preparing other Christians to help defend and protect communities from random evil in an age of anarchy. If God is doing such a thing, and I know He is, do not get in the way of God. It is hard to kick against the goads. Do not judge a brother, because it is by his Master that he will stand or fall, and Jesus will be able to make him stand.

Thank you faithfulservant for some sanity here.

I might add that there was no real civil authority when the Law of Moses was first given. Application of that Law was the responsible of the elders of a community. They judged and punished the offenders.
There was no standing army.
There was no Police force.
It was largely DIY, community justice, conducted within the limits prescribed by the Law of Moses. Turning the other cheek to evil would have been an irresponsible invitation for more evil to abound even further in that community.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Eddy Fire, thanks for your gracious response.
You obviously appreciate the real historic Francis Drake, how about this as a testimony of the man's deep and very real faithfulness. Drake was far more than the piratical figure of myth and legend. He was a real believer who did what he did because of conviction. He came from a family which had suffered at the hands of Catholic persecution.

"Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love." (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

You might also recollect that he was most happy to bear arms against those who would enslave Christians with their false religion. It is precisely this type of faith that inspires me to sail beyond accepted church boundaries.

We walk by faith not by sight
2 Corinthians 5:7

Sir Francis Drake was a pirate, (privateer....government commissioned pirate), plunderer and murderer.
Only made great because of defeating the Spanish Armada and his rampant sea missions

He was not a true Christian.
He was a protestant fighting against catholics.

Anyone can write poems such as the one you quote above.

Let us look to the Lord and His word only on this thread
Not aspiring to be like worldly hero's
But like Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith

Cause me to know the way wherein I should walk
Psalm 143:8

 

[Francis Drake]

We walk by faith not by sight
2 Corinthians 5:7

Sir Francis Drake was a pirate, (privateer....government commissioned pirate), plunderer and murderer.
Only made great because of defeating the Spanish Armada and his rampant sea missions

He was not a true Christian.
He was a protestant fighting against catholics.

Anyone can write poems such as the one you quote above.

Let us look to the Lord and His word only on this thread
Not aspiring to be like worldly hero's
But like Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith

Cause me to know the way wherein I should walk
Psalm 143:8

Drake may not have been perfect, but nevertheless was a man of deep faith. He was waging a war against a nation which had sworn to destroy the faith based Christianity of England and replace it with popery. The free church today owes the likes of Drake much gratitude for his actions against Rome. If it were not for the courage of Christians like him all of the non Catholic world would still be under the evil jackboot of pagan Rome's Inquisition.

So to say that Drake was not a true Christian is living in an imaginary world totally out of touch with historic reality. Yes there were clearly no Christians of Southern Baptist, Methodist, or Episcopalian persuasion, they would appear in the later centuries of free Christianity. At that time, there was the pagan based Church of Rome, and the handful who rejected it. The original freedom for every non Catholic nation to even begin was won by the likes of Drake, a non pacifist, faithful believer.

Spain was at war with England, and if Drake was a murderer then so must be all the British and American soldiers in WW1 and WW2 who gave their lives for your and my freedom!

So perhaps you would please give me your evidence that Drake was not a true Christian?