Do Our Spirits Die?

[Butch5]

Thank you @Butch5
I will read this when I have more time.

You're welcome!

 

[Br. Bear]

@StewardoftheMystery
Greetings,

you wrote:

So why not just ask me my thoughts, instead of accusing me of being disrespectful?

So if you do not know my thoughts, nor are you able to differentiate between the two; then why am I being judged by another man’s conscience?

but perhaps you might have missed my first reply to you?

Please forgive me - I did not realise that ' lol ' was a genuine thing, but I am perhaps slow with how these things work.

To the reader, who knows not your thoughts or reasons, it did come across as disrespectful - which is why I wrote as i did.

I do not think this needs to continue as it distract from the thread.

If you have any further comments to me about it, please use the Conversation function.


Post in Peace and have a good day

Jesus is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

I was reading Luke 8:51-56
Where Jesus raised Jairus' daughter.
He referred to her to be sleeping when she was dead, and also seems distinct that she had a spirit, that returned.

Matthew 22:23-32​

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King James Version​

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23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings,

Hi Br. Bear,

My first thought or question is, do we find anything that says man's spirit is created? I'm not aware of anything that says that. What I see in Gen 2:7 is that man's spirit is actually God's. It is something breathed out of God. That's the only spirit I see in man. If it's breathed out of God and God is spirit it seems to me that it's not something created, but rather, something from God Himself.

I beleive there is a difference, if man's spirit is created. However, I don't think mans spirit is created.

Regarding capitalization I think people do that simply based on the idea that the Spirit is a third person. Personally I think we shouldn't use the word spirit at all. I think it's best to use the literal definition of these words and let the reader decide if it's literal or figurative. By using the word spirit, the translators are taking it upon themselves to decide what is and isn't figurative rather than letting the reader decide for him/herself.

I think the significance of using wind or breath consistently is that the reader gets a better understanding of what these words mean. This is true for several words in Scripture. Soul is one of them. The KJV translators use about 15 different English words to translate soul. English readers reading 15 different words don't know that they are reading the same Greek or Hebrew word. The Greeks in NT times saw one word psuche. The Hebrews saw one word Nephesh. If it didn't make sense to them literally, they knew it was a figure of speech. We don't see these figures of speech because we're not see the same word in all of these places. Take the word spirit. When used in Scripture it is a figure of speech. However, many, if not most, Christians don't know that. Instead they import the English definition of the word into the Greek and Hebrew and because that has happened so much and for so long it becomes understood as normal.

It's like church history. The Church started out pure. Then over time some doctrines were added, some lost, and Christianity has morphed into something vastly different than what Jesus and the apostles taught. The same thing has happened to our understanding of Scripture. Unless we go back and start digging we won't know this. Look at the Reformation. It was a rejection of many of the doctrines that the church had added over the centuries. It was an attempt to get back to basics. This same thing happens with our understanding of Scripture. It's our understanding or misinderstanding of Scripture that allows these doctrines to be added to the faith. So, I think taking the Scriptures back to their most basic forn and studying them that way helps us to shed some of the baggage that has been added.

Another part of the problem is that Christians don't know what they don't know. If all Christians were forced to do a real and serious study of church history today, Christianity would change vastly. The reason being they would see what was believed at the very beginning. They would see where certain ideas and doctrines entered the church. They'd see how certain people used and manipulated the church for political gain. Theyd see how some ideas and doctrines entered the Church because certain groups had more power and were able to force their perspects.

I think the translators mean well and are trying to help people understand. The problem is that in using all of these words they're actually baking their understanding of Scrioture into the translation. I'll give you an example.

Genesis 3:8 (KJV 1900): And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

We read this passage and think of God walking in the cool of the day. That's probably in the morning, or maybe just before dark. However, the word cool in this passage is the Hebrew word Ruach. It's the same word they often translate spirit. Was God walking in the spirit of the day? That doesn't make sense. Was God walking in the wind of the day? Ok,, we can see God walking in the windy part of the day. But, when is the windy part of the day? It could be morning. It could also be afternoon or evening. Well, if it's in the afternoon and the sun is shining hard is it going to be cool? Not likely. It could be quite warm. My point is that by translating ruach as cool instead of windy the translators have baked into the KJV translation the idea of a cool part of the day when that may not be what thr text is actually saying. Now, in this passage it doesn't effect one's theology. However, where else do things like this appear that may or do affect our theology?

Yes, even a small study can reap some insights and challenge traditional thinking.
As in all things, commit it to the Lord in sincerity and He will guide and lead... our part is to follow.

Was the 'old' way of seeing things... or, did the 'old' way of seeing things ever accommodate Spirit? From the little I know, the idea or understanding of Spirit was fairly normal. Completely throwing it out might also be a mistake, done perhaps with innocence but a mistake nonetheless?


I agree that the several different words used for the same original word is somewhat potentially disorientating. When we know the meaning and the words actually used, we can see and read with that in mind. [some folk read straight Hebrew or Greek but the average man is not so well 'learned', nor has to be].
I found Robert Young's Analytical Concordance quite helpful to see the different Greek or Hebrew used for each Bible word.

You mentioned both Breath and Wind. Is it up to us to choose which one is better or more appropriate to 'use'? Do the ways in which the word is used or written, either alone or in conjunction with other words and themes, etc, change the word we need to grasp?

I think that perhaps we can be too clinical and sterile in our approach and lose the ability to see past literal translation to what the Lord would have conveyed to us in the Scripture?
As always, everything has to line up with everything else and the Author is the best and only source for 'revelation' and Truth.

Regarding your 'for example'.
If you use Wind, why then 'windy'? Is that a definite or something that sounds right? There is a big difference,as you probably realise.
I would prefer Breath, if that was an option? How about if it read "in the Spirit of the day" instead of "in the cool"?
Regarding Breath, is that inhale and exhale or both? Or merely because it/He is?

I fully appreciate what you are sharing and where you are coming from and trying to help others to at least consider, Brother. My scrutiny is for all to benefit from, Lord be willing.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Curtis]

Job speaking about God.....

Job 34:13 Who appointed him to rule over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
Job 34:14 If he really wanted to, he could hold back his spirit and breath.
Job 34:15 Then everyone would die together. They would return to the dust. (NiRV)

God's breath and spirit are not the same things, yet both are needed for life.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

God's breath and spirit are not the same things, yet both are needed for life.

True that, the breath of life is given to all living breathing creatures that will eventually physically die. But the Holy Spirit is given for eternal life.

Note the disciples of Jesus already had the breath of life that animates the physical body, as clearly they were breathing when Jesus breathed on them that eternal life of the Holy Spirit.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 14:16​

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King James Version​

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16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

God “likens” His Spirit like the wind, because the wind is an invisible force that moves things. Even though the wind is invisible to our eyes, we can both see and feel the effects of the wind.

When the Holy Spirit enters into a man he can feel the presence of God, and by the same Spirit a man is then moved to do God’s will.

But the Spirit of God can also blow like a tempest, and like a hurricane with destructive power and with scorching heat against his enemies.

 

[complete]

Hello @StewardoftheMystery,

Looking through your responses, I have noted the references you have given to support your view, and would like to respond to them if I can:-

1 Thessalonians 5:23; Revelation 6:9-10; Matthew 10:28; Ecclesiastes 12:7;
2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Matthew 22:23-32; Luke 20:38; John 11:26

'And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly;
and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body
be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
(1Thessalonians 5:23)

* At the time of writing this epistle, believers were looking expectantly for the coming of their Lord, and their hope was that they would be among those who would be 'alive' and 'remain' on that day (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17), and would not have died prior to His return. It is with this hope in mind that Paul expressed his desire for them, that they should remain 'whole', body and spirit as one living soul at the Lord's coming. It was Paul's desire too, as we can see from (Philippians 1:23) . Paul wanted to depart to be with the Lord, but that required Christ's return, and a resurrection body. Israel did not come to repentance, and therefore the return of Christ promised through Peter in Acts 3:19-21 has yet to take place.

'And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain
for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?'
(Rev 6:9-10)

* Regarding Revelation 6:9-10, the word 'souls' refers to the whole person. It is figurative. It refers to those who had been slain, those martyred saints personified as waiting, though they themselves were dead, for in Revelation 11:4 John sees them again, and it says, 'they lived again' in the first resurrection.

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

* Man can kill the body, but there is no more that they can do (Luke 12:4): but God is able to destroy the soul, or the whole person, by never reuniting the body and spirit (or breath of life), thereby denying them resurrection life. They would remain in the grave, the place of the dead. Only the power of God, as expressed in the resurrection of Christ, can raise a man from the dead, and give Him life.

That is as far as I have time, or the energy to do at the moment.

Thank you for the opportunity.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

I understand where you are coming from. It is a very complicated topic and if I'm wrong I'm wrong because nobody can change the truth.
There are these considerations.
Jesus breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.1 Corinthians 2:11

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. Romans 8:16

The body cannot function without the breath or spirit. As more than likely the spirit cannot function without the body.

Jesus said " she was asleep"
There is so much about being asleep. Only many different interpretations.

Of course as we agree on the resurrections.
The bible mentions true children of God to have the imperishable seed and will be raised to have an imperishable body.
The bible has not said that about unbelievers. That would mean that all have eternal life but the bible speaks of the second death, which cannot be an existance.
Although many interpret death as seperation. I don't think so.

The body can be destroyed relatively easily but the entire person can only be destroyed by God and some do not have the imperishable seed, in their spirit.

There are so many different views .
I am not sure of the spirit when leaving the body , whether he or she is conscious but I don't think so because of the way they are said to be asleep.

'For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man,
but the Spirit of God. '
(1 Corinthians 2:11)

Hi @Lavenderfields,

Funnily enough I have had 1 Corinthians 2:11 on my mind today. In this verse it refers to the spirit of a man (pneuma) referring to him psychologically. Man's pneuma (spirit) is contrasted with God's pneuma (spirit).

Also in 1 Corinthians 2:12 (twice) we read, 'Now we have received not the pneuma of the world, but the pneuma which is from God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.' Here it is the gift of the new nature, which is set in contrast with the natural man, and the rest of the world. It is the spiritual 'understanding' of 1 John 5:20; without which we neither know, nor can we get to know the things of God.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[*Lavender]

'For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man,
but the Spirit of God. '
(1 Corinthians 2:11)

Hi @Lavenderfields,

Funnily enough I have had 1 Corinthians 2:11 on my mind today. In this verse it refers to the spirit of a man (pneuma) referring to him psychologically. Man's pneuma (spirit) is contrasted with God's pneuma (spirit).

Also in 1 Corinthians 2:12 (twice) we read, 'Now we have received not the pneuma of the world, but the pneuma which is from God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.' Here it is the gift of the new nature, which is set in contrast with the natural man, and the rest of the world. It is the spiritual 'understanding' of 1 John 5:20; without which we neither know, nor can we get to know the things of God.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

Thank you for your reply Chris. I had written that down because it was on my mind first thing this morning.
@complete Is the messaging working because I sent a message a few times, since march.
Hope you are coping with the hot weather.

@Butch5 I read your posts and most I agree with.

 

[Curtis]

Eph 2:5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
Eph 2:6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. (NLT)

True or false?

 

[complete]

Thank you for your reply Chris. I had written that down because it was on my mind first thing this morning.
@complete Is the messaging working because I sent a message a few times, since march.
Hope you are coping with the hot weather.

@Butch5 I read your posts and most I agree with.

Hi @Lavenderfields,

No, I have not received any posts from you. Perhaps I need to empty my box.

I have been wondering how you are getting on, on the coast as you are. The garden is beginning to look dry and woe-begotten, we are all desperate for rain, aren't we?

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Regarding Revelation 6:9-10, the word 'souls' refers to the whole person.

That is your belief, but it is not what Jesus said about there being both a body and a soul.

It refers to those who had been slain, those martyred saints

Yes their physical bodies had been killed, but their living soul remained, as Jesus confirmed they can kill the body but not the soul.

personified as waiting, though they themselves were dead,

Clearly their souls were not dead because they were talking to Jesus. Jesus said God is God of the living, not of the dead.

for in Revelation 11:4 John sees them again, and it says, 'they lived again' in the first resurrection.

Rev 11:4 had nothing to with them, it is about the Lords 2 witnesses.

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

Yes, Jesus confirms the body can be killed by man, but not the soul, thus proving the soul is still alive after the death of the body. Jesus spoke of both a physical body and a soul, proving they are not the same.

* Man can kill the body, but there is no more that they can

Jesus said they could kill the body but not the soul, again proving the soul can live on without the body.

but God is able to destroy the soul, or the whole person,

Jesus said God is able to destroy BOTH body and soul, showing their is BOTH a body and a soul.

They would remain in the grave, the place of the dead.

Again Jesus said God is not a God of the dead, but of the Living.
Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the Life, those who live and believe in him shall never die.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[complete]

Eph 2:5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
Eph 2:6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. (NLT)

True or false?

'But God, Who is rich in mercy,
for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved )
And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places
in Christ Jesus: '
(Eph 2:4-6)

Hello @Curtis,

This is wonderfully true in spirit, and by God's reckoning of faith. But you and I are here in the flesh, walking upon the earth: our bodies still have to die, along with everyone else, we still have to be buried, and our bodies will see corruption, but we have the hope of resurrection glory awaiting us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

That is your belief, but it is not what Jesus said about there being both a body and a soul.

Yes their physical bodies had been killed, but their living soul remained, as Jesus confirmed they can kill the body but not the soul.

Clearly their souls were not dead because they were talking to Jesus. Jesus said God is God of the living, not of the dead.

Rev 11:4 had nothing to with them, it is about the Lords 2 witnesses.

Yes, Jesus confirms the body can be killed by man, but not the soul, thus proving the soul is still alive after the death of the body. Jesus spoke of both a physical body and a soul, proving they are not the same.

Jesus said they could kill the body but not the soul, again proving the soul can live on without the body.

Jesus said God is able to destroy BOTH body and soul, showing their is BOTH a body and a soul.

Again Jesus said God is not a God of the dead, but of the Living.

Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the Life, those who live and believe in him shall never die.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Hello @StewardoftheMystery,

The written word of God must be the Arbiter between your understanding and mine, for I will not argue these points with you.

May God's will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

If there is no life after a physical death, then who did Jesus go preach to after his death?

Ephesians 4:9-10​

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King James Version​

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9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
…………………….
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”

Where was he preaching, and how was he preaching being dead in the flesh?

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31-32​

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King James Version​

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31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.”

 

[Butch5]

Job speaking about God.....

Job 34:13 Who appointed him to rule over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
Job 34:14 If he really wanted to, he could hold back his spirit and breath.
Job 34:15 Then everyone would die together. They would return to the dust. (NiRV)

God's breath and spirit are not the same things, yet both are needed for life.

Hi Curtis,

The words used there are Neshamah and ruach. They are often used interchangeably. Both neshamah and ruach are used of the breath of life. That passage is what is called a Hebrew Parallelism. It's a literary device. It's where something is stated twice using different words.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @Butch5

Hi Curtis,

The words used there are Neshamah and ruach. They are often used interchangeably. Both neshamah and ruach are used of the breath of life. That passage is what is called a Hebrew Parallelism. It's a literary device. It's where something is stated twice using different words.

Perhaps, Life and Breath would read better?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Curtis]

'But God, Who is rich in mercy,
for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved )
And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places
in Christ Jesus: '
(Eph 2:4-6)

Hello @Curtis,

This is wonderfully true in spirit, and by God's reckoning of faith. But you and I are here in the flesh, walking upon the earth: our bodies still have to die, along with everyone else, we still have to be buried, and our bodies will see corruption, but we have the hope of resurrection glory awaiting us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

All born again believers died with Christ on his cross. The only reason our physical bodies are still alive is because the same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead is the same Spirit that is keeping us alive.

 

[Curtis]

Act 7:59 As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (NLT)