@Brother-Paul -- I know the feeling of being 'just about ready to leave' -- the dart throwers.
Good night from Texas / USA.
Good night from Texas / USA.
Where do we go when we die?
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Butch5
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B-A-C
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It doesn't say it will happen immediately. besides, eventually God will reign from the new Jerusalem.
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It says the body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God when a man dies. So, the spirit returns to God when man dies. How then can it be in Hades?
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What Jesus said was true, today you (the thief) will be with me in Paradise. (Not Heaven)
He was referring to the Paradise 'section' of Hades'.
Paradise is from the Greek word paradeisos, Stongs number 3857
Greek Strong's Number: 3857
Greek Word: παράδεισος
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ad'-i-sos
Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 5:765,777
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Paradise
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
paradise 3
[Total Count: 3]
of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.
Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary.
This 'Paradise' is a section of compartment of Hades, a place of waiting for saved souls
The other section or compartment of Hades is a place of waiting for Lost souls, a place of torment.
These explanations were includes from scripture with Strongs/Vine clarification earlier. Clear translational options from the original word that the English word cannot mean clear enough.
As for Paul, he was 'In the Spirit', the same word Paradise is used, but he thinks he is seeing the third heaven
In my early Christian life, the change was almost immediate for me, this caused massive problems and a threat to my family, my wife and kids rejecting me and my wife threatening divorce. Having experienced the hurt through losing kids in my first message this had a massive impact, but I couldn't let go and go back to worldly ways, I knew without doubt True Christianity through Jesus and Faith is 100% true. I went to the place of worship and laid my deep torn heart worries at the feet of Christ, I laid them at the alter and walked away, but every week I cried like a baby, uncontrollable flooding tears it was hard to cope with, embarrassing at the time, and many times I walked out during prayer. But there were a couple of occasions I have never forgot, I was in the Spirit, I was lifted out of this world, I had no idea where I was because I was in a place of pure peace, it was the brightest light I cannot explain the brightness, I could look at the light yet I saw nothing but this pure whiteness, and experienced nothing but peace. I shared this with a retired penticostal minister the Lord had led me to at the time, he was clear, Paul he said, we have prayed together pure protection through the blood of Christ, we have prayed constantly for the chains to fall away and have rebuked the devil haven't we. Then he said, my dear brother, God is answering prayer in a wonderful way, he lifted you out of this world to show you, do not worry about your family, I am dealing with it, be at peace, trust me.
When I think back up to nearly thirty years on, it did work out, God was in control, I did put me trust in Him, I did give him all my worries, fears and concerns and left them with him (eventually). But what about the experience, it was out of this world for sure, it was weightless, I didn't see a garden like Eden, I didn't see God's throne or any angels, the light was so white and pure. I have heard of others have similar experiences, where was I, it felt like Paradise, but was not like Eden, the light, the peace, the weightlessness would leave me searching for words, I will probably end up calling it Paradise.
Sorry back to topic.
Paradise Greek G3857 and Hebrew H6508 refer to it as (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise. 'Paradeisos'
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Luke 16:
Luke 16:19; "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
Luke 16:20; But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
Luke 16:21; desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 16:22; So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Luke 16:26; And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
Luke 16:27; "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luke 16:29; Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luke 16:30; And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luke 16:31; But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Abrahams Bosom on one side. Hades on the other side. A great gulf, chasm or canyon between the two sides.
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@B-A-C and @Butch5 and others...
Greetings brother,
I do not follow what 3 or 4 say, I look at scripture, I look back at the meaning of the Greek or Hebrew words. The Truth is in The Word then I share it with my findings.
Hades is the waiting place for saved and lost souls, two separate compartments with a great gulf between,
Hades, Paradise is where saved souls go, it is where Jesus went after being crucified, the same place he said to the thief he would see him 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'
GREAT GULF BETWEEN
Hades, Torment is the place for lost souls.
These two are waiting places for those who have died, a waiting place for disembodied spirits, the Spirit back to God who gave it, Flesh and bone back to the earth, the soul waits in Hades. Saved and lost are both in Hades, each in different sections, each awaiting Judgement. The saved in Paradise waiting judgement for what they have done for God, the unsaved in Torment waiting the for judgement for all their sins. The Great White Throne Judgement.
We know Christ went to hades and that his soul was not left there
Acts 2:31 NKJV
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades [G86], nor did His flesh see corruption.
Acts 2:31 KJV incorrectly translates the word as 'hell' but later corrected it in the NKJV as stated above
The word translated HELL in the KJV was incorrect, the word translated HADES was later corrected as we see here...
Greek Strong's Number: G86
Greek Word: ᾅδης
Transliteration: hadēs
Phonetic Pronunciation: hah'-dace
Root: from <G1> (as negative particle) and <G1492>
Vine's Words:
Hades 10
grave 1
[Total Count: 11]
from <G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and <G1492> (eido); properly unseen, i.e. “ Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.
Matthew 16:18 has the same error
Matthew 16:18 NKJV
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18 KJV
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Greek word G83 translates Hades.
Moving to Ephesians 4 we read the following...
Ephesians 4:7-10 KJV
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might ffill all things.)
INTO the lower - parts - of the earth.
The word LOWER comes from the Greek word G2737
The word PARTS comes from the Greek word G3313
The word EARTH comes from the Greek word G1093
LOWER - is translated from 'katoteros' meaning from Vine's - Hades a lower part of
PARTS - is translated from 'meros' meaning from Vine's - a part, a section, a division
EARTH - is translated from 'ge' meaning from Vine's - earth, land, ground, a solid part or whole of the terrene globe.
So when we look at Hades from these scriptures, I read as follows.
HADES is in the lower part of the earth
HADES is a part, a section or a division
HADES is earth, land, a solid part of the terrene globe (ROCK)
This replies brings together the part of the video from scripture, referring to HADES.
Hopefully it addresses which scriptures were used and how the explanations from translations using Strongs and Vines to better get to The Truth in The Word.
If there are any other scriptures we should refer to on this part of the topic, please do include them so that we can share and study them together.
Please confirm from scripture not from what some may have come to understand over the years, the Truth is in The Word.
In His Love
Brother-Paul
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I don't see the 'T' brother sorry
This is how I see it
EARTH surface______________________________________
The flesh bone body dust goes back back to earth, dust goes back to or near the surface of the earth
v
v
Moving downwards from the surface of the earth towards the core...
v
Hades - lower level - a solid part of the earth [See Post 89 above]
v
v
__________________________________________________
HADES - PARADISE - Place of the SOUL of the SAVED - A CONSCIOUS DWELLING - disambodied spirits [Awaiting Resurrection day]
__________________________________________________
v
v
THE GREAT GULF DIVIDES THEM
v
v
_________________________________________________
HADES - TORMENT - LOWER SECTION - Place of the SOUL of the UNSAVED - A CONCIOUS DWELLING - disembodied spirits [Awaiting Judgement Day]
_________________________________________________
v
v
Going deeper
v
v
Then there is 'TARATOO' the deepest place in Hades G5020, the place where the fallen angels are kept [Locked away - Awaiting Judgement Day]
v
The Abyss, the Bottomless Pit, Tartarus, Hell, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire
v
Seems a bit close to the core of the earth to me.
The above diagram though provided as horizontal lines, could just as easy be, the parallel lines from the outer circumference of the earth inward to the core.
I do not see the 'T', I welcome comments but and if you could explain the T further I would love to hear.
Now what I find interesting is, the people at the time of writing about Hades, Hell, etc in the OT, how would they have been able to describe these things, they didn't have the knowledge we have today about the earth, which in reflection of the above, seems rotten to the core.
Shalom
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The spirits do not go to Hades brother.
1 - At death the spirit leaves and goes back to God
2 - the body goes back to the dust of the earth
3 - the SOUL of the 'disembodied spirit' goes to Hades.
The disembodiment is when the spirit leaves at the last breath and goes back to God.
Hope that better explains
Shalom
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You can see the "T" shape of Sheol here.
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Thanks @B-A-C
I read that Abraham's Bosom was Hades for the Saved, I will look it up again.
Regarding the T, for me this doesn't fit.
To me this would show the divide but not totally as described in scripture.
==================================================
= Hades // Great Chasm between // Abraham's Bosom =
==================================================
The reason I showed the downwards style and not the horizontal style of image, is because the scripture refers to lower and even lower levels in the section of the earth
As confirmed brother that is how I see it, but I thank you for explaining your view and diagram.
Shalom
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Not sure of your thoughts here brother.
My thoughts are based on....
The spirit leaves the body at last breath and goes back to God, it is disembodied, freed from the tent, body and soul.
Immediately the spirit leaves the body (at last breath)
Immediately the soul is carried or taken (or dragged) to Hades [Which section of Hades is already defined by the persons salvation or lack of salvation.
Immediately the body starts to decay, and will return to the dust of the earth.
I see all those as immediate, the second of last breath.
When the soul arrives in Hades, it is in waiting there until Judgement Day. Job done so to speak.
The SAVED souls arrive in Paradise, the Paradise section of Hades, they will remain there and be comforted as confirmed yesterday in the post, they will wait for what we call Resurrection Day
The LOST souls arrive in Torment section of Hades, they will remain there, in torment, they will wait for what is called Judgement Day.
Shalom
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scripture for this please. I can give you dozen that say this happens on "the last day" when He calls our names.
I can agree with this part. But can the soul exist without the spirit?
Agreed, the "old fleshly" body is not resurrected. The spirit soul is, and it gets a new body.
scripture for this please.
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1Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Cor 15:36; Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Cor 15:37; And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Cor 15:38; But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Cor 15:39; All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
1Cor 15:40; There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Cor 15:43; It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Cor 15:44; It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
1Cor 15:48; As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cor 15:49; And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Eccl 12:7; Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
1Cor 15:36; Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Cor 15:37; And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Cor 15:38; But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Cor 15:39; All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
1Cor 15:40; There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Cor 15:43; It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Cor 15:44; It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
1Cor 15:48; As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cor 15:49; And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Eccl 12:7; Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
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Eccl 12:7; Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
The "spirit" of both both Lazarus and the rich man remained in Sheol. Neither had faced the judgment yet. One was in Hades, the other was Abraham's Bosom.
No one has ascended to heaven yet. 3 possible exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, and of course Jesus.
John 3:13; No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 6:39; This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40; And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54; Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24; Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Note: Lazarus's spirit was not resurrected to heaven while his body was in the grave.
John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
John 5:29; and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
The "spirit" of both both Lazarus and the rich man remained in Sheol. Neither had faced the judgment yet. One was in Hades, the other was Abraham's Bosom.
No one has ascended to heaven yet. 3 possible exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, and of course Jesus.
John 3:13; No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 6:39; This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40; And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54; Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24; Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Note: Lazarus's spirit was not resurrected to heaven while his body was in the grave.
John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
John 5:29; and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
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Hi Brother Paul,
It seems to me you're conflating the soul and the spirit. Above you said, "These two are waiting places for those who have died, a waiting place for disembodied spirits, the Spirit back to God who gave it, Flesh and bone back to the earth, the soul waits in Hades." How is Hades a waiting place for disembodied spirits if the spirits return to God?
Here's the issue that I see. You said you're going by the word, yet the definition you've given of Hades, is not according to the word, but rather Strong's dictionary. Where in Scripture is there anything about Paradise being a part of Hades? I'm not aware of any such passage. The parable says that Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. It doesn't say he was in Hades. Also, the parable says that the Rich Man was in Hades and Lazarus was "afar off" in Abraham's bosom. How is Abraham's bosom in Hades if it's "afar off"? Do we have any Scripture that says there is a part of Hades that is called Abraham's bosom? Also, above, you said that paradise is the part of Hades where the saved souls go and Hades torment is where the lost souls go. Can you give any Scripture to support this. Because the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man says nothing at all about the saved or the lost.
The biggest problem I see in all of this is the presumption that the dead are alive without any proof from Scripture. We're told how man was created.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)
We see from this that the man (formed from the dust) became a living soul when infused with the breath or spirit of God. Thus a soul consists of a body and the breath or spirit of God. If that breath or spirit of God leaves the body, how does a soul continue to exist? Water consists of hydrogen and oxygen. If we remove either element we no longer have water. If we remove an element of the soul, how can we still have a soul?
When you ended your post you said, "Please confirm from scripture not from what some may have come to understand over the years, the Truth is in The Word." So, I'm asking where in Scripture, not what some have come to understand over the years, do we find support for these claims?
