Where do we go when we die?

[Brother-Paul]

Fascinating.
You did answer me. Now you're proving your answer by losing your temper after.

You know not Shalom.

I never lose my temper lady, my wife has tried that for 42 years, I just laugh, we never argue.

You are trouble madam, you only been on here a month, off topic, off topic, unrelated questions, off topic!

In your first post last month you said...

Thank you for stopping in. I'm new of course and a Christian.
I've been having a crisis of faith lately, a crisis of life too I guess.
I know Satan exists 'cause I'm married to his brother.
Anyway, it's a really bad few weeks.
I have 5 stray kitten rescues and they're dying one after the other from a birth disorder related to anemia.
I'm just numb right now. Miracles don't happen anymore.

Do you ever ask yourself this question?
When all things are predestined by Omniscient Omnipotent God, shouldn't he show he believes in us?
Why does the only eternal all knowing creator , God, need us to believe in and praise him? When he knows he's God.

Still in crisis sister?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Topic
Where do we go when we die?

 

[Butch5]

Well put brother and a blessing to read and share with you.

Bless you.

Thanks Brother Paul.

 

[PloughBoy]

Who do you think you are lady, I do not answer to you madam.

Again off topic!

I dust the sand off my feet.

Shalom

I told the "Congregation" so; " I smell a dead cat on the Line"

 

[Brother-Paul]

Several times it has been said, this is becoming a good discussion, every time it was said the devil disrupted the conversations, that said if this is the case, it would appear the devil does not want us to know what happens when we die, as we do not answer to him either, let us move on in love, in Christ, and Praise the Lord for the blessings he pours on us.

That's a big arms up in praise from me. \o/

Now, I am not talking about China, I am not talking about Germany, Brussels or other parts of the world experiencing 'raging waters' at this time, we can only pray for them. But did not our Lord Jesus tell us such things would happen in the latter days. Time is getting short so if we need to know we better find out quickly

A lot of water has gone under the bridge in the discussion (so to speak), and a few points have been raised recently, some in considerable depth, so let us keeping to the topic, move forward. I'm in Lord.

More in the following post.

 

[Brother-Paul]

As we know, together we have been discussing 'Where do we go when we die'

We started looking at the body elements, flesh (and bone), spirit and soul.

We confirmed and agreed together that the soul was not a separate part but after God created the body and breathed into it the breath of life, it then 'became' a living soul.

In my post #206 I included, for discussion, my understanding at that point which was...

Body + Spirit = as scripture quotes - 'became a living soul'

Body (no spirit) = a dead soul

Therefore the Body = Soul

Body with Spirit = living soul.

Body without Spirit = dead soul.

At our last breath, the Spirit returns to God, what is left is the Body, which as we see is a dead soul.

I remember reading some time ago about a group of surgeons operating on a person's body, it was a major operation as it stated the body had been opened up revealing a big part of the persons inners. One surgeon said to the others, 'the guys we have the proof, tell me gentlemen where is the soul'. What an hypocrite he was, it is clear he and probably all of the team were lost souls.

Moving on.....

We then moved on from the above discussion and discussed in detail, what scripture tells us of 'Hades' as always comes up at this stage was the scripture regarding the rich man and Lazarus, understandably it is a related and very good point to consider. From our discussions together, it was suggested that Hades could be 'T' shaped, a great shaft running downwards deeper into the earth, with to sections or compartments, one to the left and one to the right of the great gulf. Our discussions together seemed feasible, more so when we consider that the fallen angels were in a chamber or section even lower down the shaft or great gulf. The key point from out talks at this point were the fact that the rich man could see Lazarus at the other side of the great gulf, they were concious, so from this prospective it appears when we die, our spirit goes back to God who gave it, our body to the dust of the earth, our soul to Hades. But if our body is a soul without a spirit, how can they go to two different places, the grave and hades?

Together we are seeing more pieces of the jigsaw, togethjer we are considering the scriptures, and most importantly, together we are questioning what we know from the scriptures to date. The spirit is moving, thanks be to God.

My view of what we have discussed was always the reality of the conciousness in Hades that we have talked about, as scripture confirms, it has a way of drawing our eyes towards it, but could there be more, could there be something some have seen and others have not. After discussing the Body, Spirit and Soul as detailed above from Post 206, I started to question my thoughts, have you, what are your views?

I started to think this could be a parable after all, two things were standing out for me, one was the understanding of the Body, Spirit and Soul as Living Soul or Dead Soul depending wether a person was born again before their last breath. But there was another couple of items still not quite clear, one that clearly stood out was why was it the rich man wearing purple? A colour for Royalty, a colour for priest, then our dear brother @Butch5 took the trouble to share why he thinks it is a parable, please do read his post number #236, it is an excellent explanation and one worthy of our consideration I think.

So to summaries at this point I would ask for your comments regarding the items discussed,
- Body, Spirit, Soul = living soul or dead soul
- Please comment of what brother @Butch5 has stated

Another item for consideration I think is...

When a person takes their last breath, we say the spirit goes back to God, not us at this stage just the spirit.
- Is this just the believers spirit ?
- what happens to the unbelievers spirit?

Now I think we should leave this until last, but list it now so we don't forget, or in my case that I don't forget.

If there is no conciousness in Hades, what we read of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, does this bring us to soul sleep?
The waiting period for Christ's return, which includes all who are saved and have died, and all who are saved and will die before Christ's Return.

I am not going to say 'interesting discussion', though I think it is an 'interesting topic.' (bias)

Meanwhile I continue to pray that what we do and share together, is in His Love, with an open heart and mind, and that we will all be truly Blessed as we share Truth in The Word together.

Blessings

 

[Butch5]

As we know, together we have been discussing 'Where do we go when we die'

We started looking at the body elements, flesh (and bone), spirit and soul.

We confirmed and agreed together that the soul was not a separate part but after God created the body and breathed into it the breath of life, it then 'became' a living soul.

In my post #206 I included, for discussion, my understanding at that point which was...

Body + Spirit = as scripture quotes - 'became a living soul'

Body (no spirit) = a dead soul

Therefore the Body = Soul

Body with Spirit = living soul.

Body without Spirit = dead soul.

At our last breath, the Spirit returns to God, what is left is the Body, which as we see is a dead soul.

I remember reading some time ago about a group of surgeons operating on a person's body, it was a major operation as it stated the body had been opened up revealing a big part of the persons inners. One surgeon said to the others, 'the guys we have the proof, tell me gentlemen where is the soul'. What an hypocrite he was, it is clear he and probably all of the team were lost souls.

Moving on.....

We then moved on from the above discussion and discussed in detail, what scripture tells us of 'Hades' as always comes up at this stage was the scripture regarding the rich man and Lazarus, understandably it is a related and very good point to consider. From our discussions together, it was suggested that Hades could be 'T' shaped, a great shaft running downwards deeper into the earth, with to sections or compartments, one to the left and one to the right of the great gulf. Our discussions together seemed feasible, more so when we consider that the fallen angels were in a chamber or section even lower down the shaft or great gulf. The key point from out talks at this point were the fact that the rich man could see Lazarus at the other side of the great gulf, they were concious, so from this prospective it appears when we die, our spirit goes back to God who gave it, our body to the dust of the earth, our soul to Hades. But if our body is a soul without a spirit, how can they go to two different places, the grave and hades?

Together we are seeing more pieces of the jigsaw, togethjer we are considering the scriptures, and most importantly, together we are questioning what we know from the scriptures to date. The spirit is moving, thanks be to God.

My view of what we have discussed was always the reality of the conciousness in Hades that we have talked about, as scripture confirms, it has a way of drawing our eyes towards it, but could there be more, could there be something some have seen and others have not. After discussing the Body, Spirit and Soul as detailed above from Post 206, I started to question my thoughts, have you, what are your views?

I started to think this could be a parable after all, two things were standing out for me, one was the understanding of the Body, Spirit and Soul as Living Soul or Dead Soul depending wether a person was born again before their last breath. But there was another couple of items still not quite clear, one that clearly stood out was why was it the rich man wearing purple? A colour for Royalty, a colour for priest, then our dear brother @Butch5 took the trouble to share why he thinks it is a parable, please do read his post number #236, it is an excellent explanation and one worthy of our consideration I think.

So to summaries at this point I would ask for your comments regarding the items discussed,
- Body, Spirit, Soul = living soul or dead soul
- Please comment of what brother @Butch5 has stated

Another item for consideration I think is...

When a person takes their last breath, we say the spirit goes back to God, not us at this stage just the spirit.
- Is this just the believers spirit ?
- what happens to the unbelievers spirit?

Now I think we should leave this until last, but list it now so we don't forget, or in my case that I don't forget.

If there is no conciousness in Hades, what we read of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, does this bring us to soul sleep?
The waiting period for Christ's return, which includes all who are saved and have died, and all who are saved and will die before Christ's Return.

I am not going to say 'interesting discussion', though I think it is an 'interesting topic.' (bias)

Meanwhile I continue to pray that what we do and share together, is in His Love, with an open heart and mind, and that we will all be truly Blessed as we share Truth in The Word together.

Blessings

Hi Brother Paul,

I'd like to touch on my understanding of the breath, or spirit. In Gen 2:7 the word picture we get is of God breathing the breath of life into man. It's something that comes out of God and goes into man. It's the Neshamah of lives. It's actually plural. It's literally the breath of lives. The word neshamah is sometimes translated spirit. So, the spirit in man is actually the Neshamah of lives. We see from Gen 2:7 that it is not human, it's not man. It is something from within God Himself. We're told in several passages of Scripture that this breath is what gives life to all flesh. It's my understanding that when a man dies this breath or spirit returns to God. This is true for all. It's actually that part of God that He puts into all flesh that makes it live. This is what returns to God. And, this would be the case for both the righteous and the wicked.

Job said,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Spirit is ruach and breath is neshamah. Job says these are God's ruach and neshamah and that if He retrieved them all flesh would die. This indicates to me that it is the rauch and neshamah of God that is keeping all living flesh alive.

Paul said to Timothy that God gives. present tense, life to all things.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, (1 Tim. 6:13-14 NKJ)

This seems to confirm what Job had said about God's breath giving life. A lot of people think once a person is born they are alive as a separate being. However, we see here that we are only alive because God is actively keeping us alive.

In Ezekiel 37 we have a picture of the resurrection of Israel.

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1-14 KJV)

Here we have a passage that I believe really tells us about the breath. This passage is similar to Gen 2:7. We see man being created. But I think God gives us one crucial bit of information here that we didn't get in Gen 2:7, that is, God says it's His breath or spirit that makes them live. It's not that He is putting their spirit (if there was one) back into them. It's literally God's breath or spirit that makes them live.

In this passage I've bolded and highlighted the words in yellow that are translated from ruach. All of the words in yellow are the word ruach in the Hebrew text. The translators have used three different English words to translate ruach. Personally, I think this is a disservice. I think often the English reader misses a good bit by not seeing that it's all the same word. The breath in them is the ruach, where that ruach comes from is the ruach, and it is the ruach of God. In English we don't see wind or breath as a spirit. In English a spirit is a disembodied living being, not wind. We don't really even think of wind and breath as the same thing. I think a lot gets lost by using three different English words. If we read this passage and insert the word ruach into each yellow highlight I think it gives us a different perspective on the passage.

Now, some might think, this is ruach and not neshamah so they are different. However, these words are pretty much interchangeable. To show that consider these passages.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Breath in this passage, the breath of life, is Neshamah

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
(Gen. 6:17 KJV)

Breath in this passage, the breath of life, is Ruach.


This brings me to the conclusion that man is just the elements of the earth, the body, that is infused with something of God, the Breath of LIves. These two together as we've discussed is the living soul. I don't believe there is a spirit that is man. I believe every time the Bible speaks of the spirit in man it's God's breath or spirit of LIves.

 

[BunnyOnion]

I never lose my temper lady, my wife has tried that for 42 years, I just laugh, we never argue.

You are trouble madam, you only been on here a month, off topic, off topic, unrelated questions, off topic!

In your first post last month you said...

Thank you for stopping in. I'm new of course and a Christian.
I've been having a crisis of faith lately, a crisis of life too I guess.
I know Satan exists 'cause I'm married to his brother.
Anyway, it's a really bad few weeks.
I have 5 stray kitten rescues and they're dying one after the other from a birth disorder related to anemia.
I'm just numb right now. Miracles don't happen anymore.

Do you ever ask yourself this question?
When all things are predestined by Omniscient Omnipotent God, shouldn't he show he believes in us?
Why does the only eternal all knowing creator , God, need us to believe in and praise him? When he knows he's God.

Still in crisis sister?

Unlike you I've never been in crisis in this forum. Though you have tried your best.
I see you. Here and on other sites under other names. Posting style is the dead give away. Passive aggressive personality disorder is a shame. Please stop.

Now you're implying I'm an agent of the devil in the other posts since this one I've quoted.

God sees you too.


You are correct about one thing. I am a lady.

You lose your temper. You call women names and imply they're of the devil when they don't silently meekly accept your abuse .

You know not Shalom.
Where shall you go when you die?

You grew upset when I quoted the passage that tells us this.

The flesh returns to the dust from whence it sprang. The soul to God who gave it.
I understand now why
that would be something you angrily denied is true.

Goodbye.

 

[Butch5]

In my previous post I said that the Rich Man in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man represented the leadership or priesthood of Israel. I'd like to continue on in that mode. In the parable the Rich Man is said to be in Hades, the grave, and is speaking to Abraham. I said this parable was about the judgment that was to come on Israel in 70 AD. This parable draws on several Old Testament passages. I pointed out Deut. 32 in the last post. Now I'd like to reference Isaiah 28-29. Isaiah starts,

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate. (Isa. 28:1-6 KJV)

Here Isaiah says woe to Israel. He says they are drunkards and they will be trodden down. He says God has a mighty one that will destroy them. Then He says the Lord will be a diadem of beauty for the residue of His people. Notice that He says He will be for a spirit of judgment to him who sits in judgment. He's saying He's going to bring judgment to the leadership of Israel.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (Isa. 28:7-8 KJV)

Here he continues to describe Israel. The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (Isa. 28:9-13 KJV)

Here he asks to whom will He teach knowledge. This is speaking of Christ. Christ taught little by little. Notice verse 12 they would not hear it. verse 13 says the word of the Lord was to them precept upon precept that they might go and fall backwards. They refused to hear. Notice in verse 11 he says with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people. This is a reference to Pentecost when they began to speak in tongues. This shows us the time frame for this judgment. Paul also quoted this passage in 1 Cor. 14. So, we know it is a judgment in Christ's day.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (Isa. 28:14 KJV)

Here he leaves no doubt about who he is talking to. It's the scornful men who rule Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (Isa. 28:15 KJV)

Notice here that God says they had made a covenant with death and are in agreement with Hades. This is how God saw their current situation. They were in league with the Romans to kill Jesus. They think this league will save them from the overflowing scourge. Remember how Caiaphas wanted to turn Jesus over so that the Romans wouldn't attack the Jews?

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. (Isa. 28:16-19 KJV)

However, God says their covenant with death and their agreement with Hades will not stand. He will bring judgment and they won't stand. He says the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. They thought their agreement with Rome would keep them safe but God said no. Rome will overflow your hiding places.

Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
(Isa. 29:1-3 KJV)

This is where God brings judgment against Israel. This is what the Romans did. They surrounded and laid siege to the city.

4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. (Isa. 29:4-5 KJV)

Verse 4 is key to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. In the parable the Rich Man is in Hades, the grave, and he's speaking. Here God says the leadership of Israel will speak out of the ground. Their speech shall be low out of the dust. He says their voice shall be as a mutterer out of the of the ground. They shall whisper out of the dust. He says it four times. This is what we see with the Rich Man in Hades in the parable. What we have here is a judgment against the leadership of Israel in the day of Christ that has the leadership speaking out of the ground, the dust. The Rich Man, in the parable, is the priesthood. Jesus is using this and a few other passages and weaving them together to make a story about the coming judgment.

 

[Butch5]

Before the parable Jesus chides the Pharisees.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. (Lk. 16:14-18 KJV)

He tells them the Law and the Prophets were until John. Here He is telling them their priesthood is over. It's done. It was until John. Since then the Kingdom of God is preached. If the priesthood is dead where would it be? In Hades, the grave. He said this right before giving the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. He tells them that it's easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the Law to Fail. In other words, there is nothing they can do to stop the end of the priesthood and the destruction of Jerusalem, it was prophesied. Then He says he who puts away his wife commits adultery. Why would He say that? He's pointing them to the book of Malachi which speaks of the priests divorcing.

11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. (Mal. 2:11-16 KJV)

The book of Malachi is not only about divorce. It's also about the destruction of the priesthood and Jerusalem. Jesus is pointing them to this judgment. Remember the Rich Man was tormented in the flame in the parable?

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. (Mal. 3:1-4 KJV)

He shall sit as a refiner of silver and He shall purify the sons of Levi. Who are the sons of Levi? The priesthood. Notice the messenger of the covenant shall refine them as silver. How does one refine silver? In fire. Where is the the Rich Man, the sons of Levi? In Hades tormented in the flame. I encourage you to read the whole book of Malachi. It speaks of the destruction and restoration of the priesthood in the end

 

[Brother-Paul]

Unlike you I've never been in crisis in this forum. Though you have tried your best.

First you try cause problems saying I lose my temper, no lady I never lose my temper, 42 years of marriage, we don't argue, I do not know what it is like to lose my temper, my wife tried in the early years, I just laughed. Now you try another angle saying I am in a crisis, read your first post, you confirm who is in crisis.

I see you. Here and on other sites under other names. Posting style is the dead give away. Passive aggressive personality disorder is a shame. Please stop.

What you see sister proves you see nothing, I am NOT on any other Christian forum, I checked one before coming on here a few years ago but did not like the attitudes. THis is the ONLY Christian forum I am on or have ever been on. You are seeing or imagining things that are not there.

Now you're implying I'm an agent of the devil in the other posts since this one I've quoted.

I am not implying anything of the sort, I have never implied you are an agent of the devil. I said if you read correctly, many have quoted what an interesting subject this has become, I then said,
every time this was said the devil disrupted the conversations, that said if this is the case, it would appear the devil does not want us to know what happens when we die, as we do not answer to him either, let us move on in love, in Christ, and Praise the Lord for the blessings he pours on us.
That is suggesting, the devil is disrupting the conversation. Note also the statements 'if this is the case, it would appear'

The only finger pointing here is at the devil! You seem to read what isn't there, you read what you want to believe.

God sees you too.

Praise the Lord you got that right, God sees and knows all, even the things in the inner most part of the heart.

You are correct about one thing. I am a lady.

I am not going down that road, I could have called you woman as Jesus did, as God created man and then woman, but I did not think that polite, sir first I called you lady, that is polite whether you are or not is nothing to do with me. Then I called you madam, this was not being impersonal, it was still being polite, if I had said woman I would understand you thought that was impolite, I called you madam because by your posts you believe you are right, which is why I also mentioning dart throwers not mentioning names, there are many. They throw their darts based on what they believe, aiming to score points, thank the Lord he sees through this also. Saying someone is a dart thrower is a polite way of saying this.

You lose your temper. You call women names and imply they're of the devil when they don't silently meekly accept your abuse .

I have covered all these incorrect statements above, I am not going to repeat them, you have your own mind set.

You know not Shalom.
Where shall you go when you die?

You grew upset when I quoted the passage that tells us this.

The flesh returns to the dust from whence it sprang. The soul to God who gave it.
I understand now why
that would be something you angrily denied is true.

Goodbye.

Dear sister, you couldn't be more away from the Truth.

I didn't grow upset as you think or state, this thread is aimed to, and has, encouraged people to quote scripture relating to the topic, as many scripture verses as possible, the aim is encouraging members to share scripture with an open heart and an open mind, this had to be the right way I believe, rather than opinions based on a few verses which so often rules on forums.

I am going to cut the post here and start a new one 'related to the topic.'

 

[Brother-Paul]

Back to Topic

We began by considering what scriptue says first about the Body, the Spirt and the Soul, we consider these first, are these separate elements or not, based in the scriptures. It was shown not as you stated, though I thank you for quoting scripture and keeping to the topic at that time. The following and more were quoted earlier, this proves the case to be the opposite of what you stated, but please do not take it personal, this is not an issue, possibly what you stated was a mistake at the time, we all make mistakes, I certainly made one recently by accident, I held my hand up, it happens we are human, but we must never let these things get personal and in the way of sharing scripture together.

We therefore confirm for these items, which form the base of our discussion...

After considering scriptures quoted by numerous members, that the body goes back to the dust of the earth, we ALL agree, how can we not.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Then we looked at scripture confirming the Spirit, it is the Spirit that goes back to God who gave it, not the soul as you quoted, though I thank you for your input on the topic.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Then we looked at scripture for the soul...

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This tells us, does it not, that man was created by God, a DEAD SOUL, He breathed into man the 'Breath of Life' and then man BECAME a LIVING SOUL.

Now the discussion is still open, all scriptures are God breathed, the more scriptures we consider together the more pieces of the jigsaw are put in place and the picture always gets clearer.

Your comments are just as important as the next persons, all we ask is don't quote scripture based on that is what you believe, quote them with an open heart and mind based on this is what scripture says.

I am sure on this topic, at some stage, as we continue to explore together, we will all read scriptures that go against what we currently believe.

Many times I have said, what about this, I may know the answer, I may think I know the answer, this doesn't seem to be what people expect on a forum, but I believe it is the best way to encourage others to participate, that way more scriptures are shared, at each stage of the topic, as a result, I believe, the Spirit will reveal The Truth in The Word. Sadly due to the way forums have become, people prefer to share their beliefs, or new thing they have just learned, they were convinced by a speaker, we are certainly warned about this. But many believe they are right rather than listen to every scripture quoted by others and compare them in the right context, in the Light let the Truth be revealed. Now if someone asks a question rather than say I think this, even though they may know the answer, or think they know the answer, there is always someone wanting to jump in. I say this in love, I say it as an open statement, not to you or anyone personally, but in general conversation, forums have become places of opinions rather that fellowship, they are the rub offs of facebook and other social media platforms, breeding grounds for the opinionated.

One final statement, as stated previously, I am not a member of any other Christian forum and never have except I looked at one before coming here, it was an opion based, it was a he or she who shouts loudest place, I never went back. I also will not get involved in any discussion of any kind on Social any media platform. They are the devil's playground.

I post in His Love, in His Peace that is beyond all comprehension.

Hopefully we have a better understanding, @BunnyOnion you are most welcome to continue the discussions, we have a fair way to go yet, but we do so in love, taking all scriptures and discussing them together, keeping to topic.

We are to love one another, encourage one another in Christ Jesus, bringing Glory to God the Father in what we do 'together' in His Name.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

From our discussions on the topic, 'Where do we go when we die', we have discussed many options at each stage.

This is how it appears to the present stage.

BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT - CREATION
- The body comes from the dust of the earth as confirmed with the creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis
- Gen 3:7 God breathed into Adam and he BECAME a living soul
- The soul is therefore part of the body, it is either a living soul or it is a dead soul

BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT, WHEN WE DIE
- The body returns to the dust of the earth from which it came
- The spirit returns to God who gave it
- The soul being part of the body goes to the grave

WHERE IS HADES?
- Hades is the grave, also called Shoel in the OT
- But what about the details in scripture of the rich man and Lazarus in Hades, with the great gulf between. We will come to that.

WHAT IS ABRAHAM'S BOSOM?
- Abraham's bosom is Paradise, the place for the saved in the OT
- In the NT as we saw Jesus said to the thief next to him that accepted Jesus, today you will be with me in paradise.

WHERE IS PARADISE?
- Paradise is the grave, the waiting place for the saved.
- What did Jesus mean when he said 'today you will be with me in Paradise'? Simply that, Jesus was put in the tomb, that day. then raised on the third day.

THE GRAVE - HADES
- Hades has two sections, they include...
- the saved souls, waiting judgement for what they have done for the Lord, in the Paradise section of Hades, waiting Christ's return.
- the lost souls, waiting judgement for ALL their SINS, they are already condemned, destined for Hell.
- God has created a great gulf between the two to emphasise the saved souls, those who are his, are not mixed with the goats who are not his.

WHAT ABOUT THE SCRIPTURE FOR THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
- I didn't think so but following our in depth study together, I believe it is a parable.

DO WE GO TO HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE?
- NO, we go to the grave, lost or saved souls we go to the grave, to the dust of the earth, we go to a section in a place called Hades, the grave.
- The Souls of the SAVED go to the Paradise section of Hades
- The souls of the LOST go to the torment section of Hades
- ONLY THE SPIRIT returns back to God

HADES IS A PLACE OF WAITING
- We are each, lost or saved awaiting Christ's return and judgement.
- He could return tonight, when he does as we know, the dead in Christ will rise first, but all will be raised.

I have kept these notes as brief as possible, they are based on our discussion relating to scriptures at each stage, to keep the list above as short as possible I have not included the scriptures here. The aim is to share the facts stated above. I also appreciate some of the findings may not be what people want to hear because of their current thoughts on the subjects, but what has been noted is based on the scriptures.

SOUL SLEEP
- This leads us to a final consideration, based on the above, and that we are not conscious in Hades, the scripture for the rich man and Lazarus was a parable, then soul sleep seems probable.

Please do share your comments, based on scripture. It is by sharing scripture together and prayer that the Truth is revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In His Love

 

[Butch5]

Another point about the parable, It says that Lazarus died and was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. It then says the Rich Man died and was buried, and being in Hades he lifted up his eyes. As pointed out before, Jesus equates being in the grave with being in Hades. They are one and the same. However, to the point I want to make. Notice who died first. It was Lazarus and then the Rich Man. Who died first, Jesus or the priesthood? It was Jesus. The parable says that after Lazarus died he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. When Jesus died, how was he carried away? Was it not by angels?

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9 KJV)

It says He was taken up. That's passive. He didn't go under His own power. Two verses later we find this statement.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11 KJV)

The angels said that Jesus would return in the manner He left. How will Jesus return?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Matt. 25:31 KJV)

When Jesus returns He will have His angels with Him. If He's returning in the same manner that He left, then it follows that He left with angels.

Where did they go? If Lazarus represents Jesus, then Abraham was Lazarus' father. So, Lazarus went to his father's bosom. Where did Jesus God?

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

I find the similarities to much to be coincidence. Lazarus died and was carried away by angels. Jesus died and was carried away by angels. The Rich Man died and was suffering in the grave. The priesthood died and was suffering in the grave.

 

[Brother-Paul]

No such think as coincidence brother.

But I do believe in God-incidence.

Bless you

 

[Alter2Ego]

Where do we go one we die?

This should be clear in all our minds, but as we know it isn't, people come up with lots of ideas, some from scripture, some out of context, but some can be genuine misunderstandings from badly translated scripture, even from the KJV Bible.

What is Hades?
What is Shoel?
What is Hell?

Brother-Paul:

What do you understand hades, sheol, and hell to refer to?

Alter2Ego

 

[BunnyOnion]

Trust what God tells you. Not what our ego would prefer.

From dust we were created and unto dust we shall return. Our soul/Spirit, from the breath of God, returns to God .

• All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

• You hide Your face, they are dismayed;You take away their spirit, they expire. And return to their dust.

Source: 13 Bible verses about Creatures Returning To Dust

God does not change. Those truths are not altered by the new testament.

You are dust alive in God as God is alive in you.
There is no death.

 

[Mister]

Where do we go one we die?

This should be clear in all our minds, but as we know it isn't, people come up with lots of ideas, some from scripture, some out of context, but some can be genuine misunderstandings from badly translated scripture, even from the KJV Bible.

What is Hades?
What is Shoel?
What is Hell?
What about Abraham's bossom?
What about soul sleep?
What about consciousness after death?

A dear brother posted recently, we do not go to heaven when we die... Do we or don't we, it is all in this video!

Did Jesus go to Hell when crucified?
Where is Paradise, the place that Jesus told the thief on the cross 'Today YOU will be with ME in PARADISE'
Do the dead know what is happening in this world? This can be linked with another question are they looking down on us?
What about the conversation between the rich man and Lazarus between the great gulf?
Who will be judged?
What about the lake of fire?

All these questions and more are answered in the video, you may be born again from above, you may not be, the path we are on when we take our last breath leads to what happens after we die. Are we on the wide path, are we on the narrow path, do we know which path we are on? The path we are on when we take our last breath, dictates where we go from there on, the outcome is unchangeable from that point, the line is drawn and it is not in sand, we have set our own destiny. Read John 3:1-21, particularly verse 18. Verse 18 makes it very clear we are totally responsible for our choices in this life, where we end up is our decision. The beginning of the passage tells us we must be born again, the middle tells us of God's amazing love for us, that Jesus had to be crucified, he had to shed his blood, he had to become the perfect once and for all sacrifice for the sins of us all, the latter part is the conclusion and confirms it is our choice, we will have no one to blame. The passage also includes another important Truth, verse 16 says ' whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' All verses elsewhere that say believe on him, call on him and similar carry the same conditions, it is not just believing and calling on him, we must be born again, born anew, become new creations, or we will not see, we will not enter the Kingdom of God. Paradise or Torment we have a choice.

I have watched the video in the link in the past but was drawn back to it again yesterday and today. I may have shared it in the past, if so I apologise but that said the video is worth watching several times. If I have not shared it in the past, again I apologise, the content of this video, I believe, should be watched by every saved soul, it should be watched by every heart searching soul, it should be shared with lost souls, there are so many ideas, and false teaching in the world.

It is the best explanation I have come across, and it is All, according to The Word of God, it even includes badly translated scriptures from the KJV which were corrected in the NKJV Bible. The errors shown show how easy it is to misunderstand Shoel, Hades, Abraham's bossom, the discussion between the rich man and Lazarus and more.

Grab a cuppa, pen and paper at hand if you so wish, it is a roadmap with a destination of our own making. Video length approx. 30 minutes

CLICK HERE >>> WHERE DO I GO WHEN I DIE?

Shalom

Thanks the video was helpful.

 

[PloughBoy]

That is something, among "christians", in which, there are over:
As of the year 2020, Christianity had approximately 2.5 billion adherents out of a worldwide population of about 7.8 billion people.

And speaking here "Hypothetically", and i have been "born from above" and have study and have not turn away from the faith for over 44 years, And Have known over 300 pastors plus minsters and a good number of christians through out the years and read most likely way over 100 books on the "Christian Faith" from the writings "100 A.D. to 2010 A. D. And i most likely have heard over 1000 different statements of assurances from christians stating "where we go when we die"

My conclusion, I am going to wait until I die, or rapture away. Before I draw that Line. And I know what the "scriptures" clearly says. But what the use, when every body got their own confession and their own "Interpretation" where we go when we die. It is useless. and a waste of time, In a area for over 2,000 years of arguments. Same arguments about that subject year after year. from the church Fathers until 2021, and they have their own illustrations that they draw form the "Biblical Text" and dreams, Every denomination and Non-denomination. Have their interpretation of the "Biblical TEXT" concerning death and life, and Hell, and Heaven. everyone have their own opinion in the "Christian faith"
Over "2.5 billion" world wide. And most likely everyone reads the same BOOK! "Alice go's To WonderLand" But I prefer "Pilgrim Progress" and a Land "call "BELUAH"

I going to wait until I die, because right now , i do not need to spread lies or proclaim false teachings by my own "interpretation of The BIBLICAL Text".
But I will quote what "JESUS CHRIST" said: The Gospel According to what HE has said" He Said, He Said, He said. And i am not going to say what HE meant. HE SAID, He Said, he said. Not, what He meant! He said.

I only can speak on my behalf, what i am going to do.