Where do we go when we die?

[Brother-Paul]

So true, and when "Jesus" referred to that woman as a "dog,"pertaining to the crumbs that fell down from the masters table. And when he called: The Religious Leaders of that time, a den of Vipers. and on another occasion JESUS told Them that their father was "THE DEVIL", and referred to others "Like Dogs that return to their own vomit" and " A Sow that was washed and return to The MERE" How could Jesus say something like that, That is not being "Kind"
and Loving Let us not stop there: Then He "Proclaim" this:

"There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”…"

No couldn't be, a loving GOD telling His Son "Jesus" to refer to a "women" as a DOG, A Female Pig, and religious Rulers, Their Father is a Devil. What kind of Loving talk is that! The Learned, Intelligent "True Atheist" who knows his Greek and And Hebrew, This is Not A loving GOD and Christians do not know their "Bibles" they Let women rule over them they let Teachers, that do not read or study their Bibles teach their children about a GOD that is Recorded in The Bible. And when their children grow up they find out they have been taught Lies. And now, they Flee from the host of lies and liars they have been taught all their life And the "doors" of churches are being closed at a "Alarming" rate. For our Children have grown up, and they know how to read. And The true Atheist have compelled them to "read" their Bibles and by doing this they have found the "Institutionalize" an Institute of deception.

A True Intelligent Atheist have read The Bible from front to back. And they now how to translate The Hebrew and "Koine Greek"! and know when a "profess or confess christian knows their "Bible" and they spot Liars "2 Miles" out.

My field is not in "Apologetics" but in "Theology Proper" and with the Help of GOD, i can hold my ground there. And "contend for The Faith"

American Standard Version
Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the SAINTS. [He did not say; the faith that was committed unto the WORLD but the Faith that was delivered unto THE SAINTS]

There is a difference.

JESUS SAID:
"You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. ......If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Oh' but, many claim they can name it and claim it, and they can rebuke the Devil and He will Flee, even when one is living in "Complete Disobedience"!

PS. The bible said: "these men has come to our city [world] and "turn it upside down" by the words that have come out of their mouths, they have upsetted our way of living........... And of Jesus, they said He causes "RIOTS"! And Riots so did He cause, by the words that came out of HIS mouth! He Spoke "TRUTH" And how does one love the People of This world, You Speak the "TRUTH" And by Speaking The TRUTH this world Will KILL you and Hate the very GOD in whom you serve. You must die to yourself and become a "Living Sacrifice" This Journey should be taken up when you are YOUNG, and Fit for The Battle and by many Battles through time, you gain "Experience" and "SKILL" and when age come, You have become a person of "counsel". A young man is for war, and a old man is for counsel". for he has become skilled by the Battle, Pertaining to his walk with God throughout his years.

And concerning adding "petrol" to the Fire sometimes you have too, to burn the chaff off. Like you have stated "sometimes".

JESUS SAID:
"But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded. I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

When you have been under The Whip of The Hand of GOD! And The Book of JONAH is more than just a story in The Book, and the fish is not a "Whale". And his name is not "Moby ****" and your name is not "AHAB" For it is "fictional"! But Jonah is real and The prepared Fish that was created especially for Jonah by GOD Takes on a whole new meaning! Like a few years going through "The Dark Night of The Soul" When that 'DARK NIGHT" Spit you Out! ...No one have to tell you what to do and how to do it! Especially latter on when He gives you a refresher course, to remind you This thing is real. and Not "The Good Ship Lollipop"

You can tell Him, well, brother _______ said this, and Pastor_________ said that, You know What HIS reply will be: "WHAT DiD I SAY"! and you know, you cannot lie saying, well I don't know what you said. "That dog ain't going to hunt" your knees is going to start "Knocking" It is judgment time! And GOD will not have "A Bouquet of Flowers" in HIS Hands.

God knows brother and judgement is coming.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Working back through the video, I can confirm the errors in translation mentioned are as stated and as follows.

Matthew 16:18 KJV
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 NKJV
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

and...

Acts 2:31 KJV
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Acts 2:31 NKJV
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.


Greek Strong's Number: 86

Greek Word: ᾅδης

Transliteration: hadēs

Phonetic Pronunciation: hah'-dace

Root: from < G1> (as negative particle) and < G1492>

Vine's Words:

Hades 10

grave 1

[Total Count: 11]

from < G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and < G1492> (eido); properly unseen, i.e. “ Hades” or the place (state) of departed soul
Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew

Knowing the words mentioned are referring to Greek word Hades and NOT Hell makes things much clearer to follow.

Every day is a school day.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Moving on, what about Christs decent after his death?

Ephesian 4:7-10 KJV
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might ffill all things.)

Ephesians 4:7-10 NKJV
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Looking at v9 - LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH
We have the following Strongs numbers
LOWER [G2737]
PARTS [3313]
EARTH [G1093]

In order these are...

LOWER =
Greek Strong's Number: 2737

Greek Word: κατώτερος

Transliteration: katōteros

Phonetic Pronunciation: kat-o'-ter-os

Root: comparative from G2736>

Vine's Words: Lower, Lowest

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
lower 1

[Total Count: 1]

comparative from <G2737> (kato); inferior (locally, of Hades) :- lower


PARTS =
Greek Strong's Number: 3313

Greek Word: μέρος

Transliteration: meros

Phonetic Pronunciation: mer'-os

Root: from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

Vine's Words: Behalf, Country, Craft, Craftsman, Measure, Part, Piece, Portion, Respect, Sort, Trade

English Words used in KJV:

part 24

portion 3

coast 3

behalf 2

respect 2

miscellaneous translations 9

[Total Count: 43]

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literal or figurative, in a wide application)


EARTH =
Greek Strong's Number: 1093

Greek Word: γῆ

Transliteration: gē

Phonetic Pronunciation: ghay

Root: contracted from a root word

Vine's Words: Earth, Ground, Grounded, Land

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:

earth 188

land 42

ground 18

country 2

world 1

earthly + <G1537> + <G3588> 1

[Total Count: 252]

contrete from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) :- country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

Conclusion from the above...

Christ descended in to a part or section of Hades the dwelling place of the dead

He descended into the Righteous 'section' not the Torment section, which is 'Paradise'.
This adds up totally to what Jesus said on the cross to the thief...
Today you will be with me in Paradise.

Hades is in the earth, probably a solid part of part or a solid part in all of the globe

Shalom

 

[Butch5]

Where do we go one we die?

This should be clear in all our minds, but as we know it isn't, people come up with lots of ideas, some from scripture, some out of context, but some can be genuine misunderstandings from badly translated scripture, even from the KJV Bible.

What is Hades?
What is Shoel?
What is Hell?
What about Abraham's bossom?
What about soul sleep?
What about consciousness after death?

A dear brother posted recently, we do not go to heaven when we die... Do we or don't we, it is all in this video!

Did Jesus go to Hell when crucified?
Where is Paradise, the place that Jesus told the thief on the cross 'Today YOU will be with ME in PARADISE'
Do the dead know what is happening in this world? This can be linked with another question are they looking down on us?
What about the conversation between the rich man and Lazarus between the great gulf?
Who will be judged?
What about the lake of fire?

All these questions and more are answered in the video, you may be born again from above, you may not be, the path we are on when we take our last breath leads to what happens after we die. Are we on the wide path, are we on the narrow path, do we know which path we are on? The path we are on when we take our last breath, dictates where we go from there on, the outcome is unchangeable from that point, the line is drawn and it is not in sand, we have set our own destiny. Read John 3:1-21, particularly verse 18. Verse 18 makes it very clear we are totally responsible for our choices in this life, where we end up is our decision. The beginning of the passage tells us we must be born again, the middle tells us of God's amazing love for us, that Jesus had to be crucified, he had to shed his blood, he had to become the perfect once and for all sacrifice for the sins of us all, the latter part is the conclusion and confirms it is our choice, we will have no one to blame. The passage also includes another important Truth, verse 16 says ' whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' All verses elsewhere that say believe on him, call on him and similar carry the same conditions, it is not just believing and calling on him, we must be born again, born anew, become new creations, or we will not see, we will not enter the Kingdom of God. Paradise or Torment we have a choice.

I have watched the video in the link in the past but was drawn back to it again yesterday and today. I may have shared it in the past, if so I apologise but that said the video is worth watching several times. If I have not shared it in the past, again I apologise, the content of this video, I believe, should be watched by every saved soul, it should be watched by every heart searching soul, it should be shared with lost souls, there are so many ideas, and false teaching in the world.

It is the best explanation I have come across, and it is All, according to The Word of God, it even includes badly translated scriptures from the KJV which were corrected in the NKJV Bible. The errors shown show how easy it is to misunderstand Shoel, Hades, Abraham's bossom, the discussion between the rich man and Lazarus and more.

Grab a cuppa, pen and paper at hand if you so wish, it is a roadmap with a destination of our own making. Video length approx. 30 minutes

CLICK HERE >>> WHERE DO I GO WHEN I DIE?

Shalom

Hi Brother Paul,

I watched the video. No offense, but, there was so much error in that video they ought to take it down. He started out in error. He said the soul started in Heaven and then as evidence of this he gave Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:7 KJV)

This verse speaks of the spirit not the soul. They are two different things. He conflates the two elsewhere in the video too. He said Paradise is a chamber in Hades. There is nothing in Scripture that says that. People get that idea because they read the passage about the thief on the cross going to paradise and they conflate this with Hades. He said the soul is eternal, yet the Bible says that the Father alone has immortality. He said the that resurrected body is different from the earthly body. If that's the case them we're talking about reincarnation, not resurrection. He said he was going to let the Bible tell us the answer, he didn't. He used proof texts to support his theology. I'd really love to sit down with him and discuss this.

 

[Butch5]

@Brother Paul

I would submit the following.

Hades and sheol are the grave.

Gehenna is a valley located outside of Jerusalem

Hell is a word that I think we should do away with because it confuses so many.

Abraham's bosom is a man's chest. It is a reference to being embraced by Abraham. The same way John was in Jesus' bosom and Jesus is said to be in the Father's bosom.

Soul sleep is a misused term. In the Bible sleep is used as a metaphor for death. The dead are said to be asleep. I believe God uses this imagery because of the resurrection. Death is like going to sleep and the Resurrection is like waking up. I submit that the soul doesn't sleep, it dissipates at death.

Is there Consciousness at death. No. No consciousness between death and the Resurrection.

Did Jesus go to Hell? When Jesus died He went to Hades, the grave.

Where is Paradise? In the Kingdom.

Do the dead know what is happening in this world. No.

What about Lazarus and the Rich Man? This was a parable about judgment on Israel.

Who will be judged? Everyone

What about the Lake of Fire? The Lake of Fire and Gehenna are one and the same. John said that whoever was not found in the book of life would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. To reconcile these two it seems they have to be the same place.

Also, the Lake of Fire is called the second death. Thus, those who are raised and cast into the fire will die a second time. They won't suffer eternally.

I think I addressed all of the questions.

 

[Sue D.]

Where ever Hades Is -- is where no one Wants to end up waiting for judgement day and then being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

A person could ask -- where is Abraham's bosom. I was looking that up -- no one really knows. But Abraham's arms are thought to be a place of peace, tranquility. Far removed from Hades where the rich man was.

Where is hell / Hades -- some believe it's in the center of the earth.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- you are free to submit any thoughts you want to . There is nothing about the incident with Lazarus and the rich man that indicates it's a parable or has anything to do with judgement on Israel.

It's late and I'm going to bed.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry to say, the video in the opening post has it wrong on a number of levels

Agreed.

Greetings brothers.

I think possible the comment regarding levels threw me a bit, I am aware of a number of small errors in the video, one was as mentioned we don't go to heaven, our spirit does on death, but heaven will eventually come down to earth, the new Jerusalem, the Holy city.

Now talking of levels I see theses as Heaven-1, heaven-2, heaven-3, probably because I spent a lot of time in building levels go one upon another, whereas stages in events are horizontal as a time line. Therefore I believe you are referring to the Millennium period as well, please confirm of correct me if my thinking is incorrect.

That said and reassessed my thinking on the video topic, although the heaven (not on earth was incorrect with the diagram, I think the aim of the short sermon was confirmed in the title, 'Where do we go when we die' not necessarily the stages leading up to our final destiny.

But it is interesting, and going through it all again, as per stages in video, is refreshing. Note in my comments on here regarding my comments on statements and scripture from the video I am only up to the points stated on Post #43 above. Which does confirm as stated in the video the wrongly translated word HELL in the KJV which should have been HADES and was corrected in the NKJV.

Please do comment on the video, we share with open minds and open hearts.

In His Love

 

[Brother-Paul]

Where ever Hades Is -- is where no one Wants to end up waiting for judgement day and then being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

A person could ask -- where is Abraham's bosom. I was looking that up -- no one really knows. But Abraham's arms are thought to be a place of peace, tranquility. Far removed from Hades where the rich man was.

Where is hell / Hades -- some believe it's in the center of the earth.

Greetings Sue

Abraham's bossom is the same place as Jesus referred to as Paradise.

Abraham's bossom is a Jewish idiom, meaning 'Paradise.'

It is used by Jesus in Luke 16: 19:31, it is also referred to in other NT scripture.

Read the details in Post's 42 and 43 Sue, it will help gel our thinking together.

Abraham's bossom is not heaven, it is in Paradise. Paradise being a section in Hades as the video portrays, with the gulf between.

Hades (see above mentioned) in in the ground, lower parts of the earth, see translations for words posted, lower G2737, Parts G3313 and earth G1093/.

Lower is clearly defined in translation as it says 'lower'
Parts is clearly defined in translation as 'a section'
Earth translated here and is also defined for hades as being, a region, in a solid part or whole of the global terraine.

So your comments of what you have heard some say are probably very close to the understanding. Hades is in a solid, lower part of the earth. Centre of the earth is doubtful in that scientists believe the core to be liquid ore, which spews up through volcanos.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Butch5 -- you are free to submit any thoughts you want to . There is nothing about the incident with Lazarus and the rich man that indicates it's a parable or has anything to do with judgement on Israel.

It's late and I'm going to bed.

There are opposing view here I believe Sue, some refer to what was said as a parable some not.

The views for a parable are usually based on

• knowing Abraham's bossom is not in heaven.
• people in heaven cannot talk to those in hell
• the dead are in their graves
• the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man is in bodily form, he cannot be if he is in the grave.

The parable understanding includes more than those items stated, but they fail to understand, Hades is in the earth, it is in serval sections not one, the saved to paradise, the lost to torment, they also fail to recognise hades, for saved and lost in their appropriate sections as stated in scripture is NOT in heaven but in the waiting place awaiting judgement, which comes later as we know.

Jesus was very clear the rich man and Lazarus were not soul sleeping, they were conscious, the saved conscious of Paradise, the lost conscious of torment.

The body goes back to the dust of the earth,
The spirit goes back to God who gave it.
The soul goes to Hades, which ever section in Hades is right at the time of our last breath, Paradise or torment. The separation has already taken place, the saved in Paradise will on Judgement day be raised and judged for what they have done for God, the lost will be raised and judges for ALL their sins, the Great White Throne Judgement

Thank you for joining and adding your comments Sue, it is good for us all to share scripture in this way.

Bless you sister

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

I watched the video. No offense, but, there was so much error in that video they ought to take it down. He started out in error. He said the soul started in Heaven and then as evidence of this he gave Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:7 KJV)

This verse speaks of the spirit not the soul. They are two different things. He conflates the two elsewhere in the video too. He said Paradise is a chamber in Hades. There is nothing in Scripture that says that. People get that idea because they read the passage about the thief on the cross going to paradise and they conflate this with Hades. He said the soul is eternal, yet the Bible says that the Father alone has immortality. He said the that resurrected body is different from the earthly body. If that's the case them we're talking about reincarnation, not resurrection. He said he was going to let the Bible tell us the answer, he didn't. He used proof texts to support his theology. I'd really love to sit down with him and discuss this.

Greetings @Butch5

Thank you for your comments, though I have to disagree with some of them.

Your first paragraph, the video ought to be taken down.

I have to totally disagree my friend, the video may have some errors, but it also has a lot of correct statements, it also confirms errors in scripture translation which when checked out are 100% correct.

When we share any form of video teaching or similar, we do so bringing to the brethren to confirm or disagree with the parts as they feel lead to do so, then we discuss them together, that helps people grow in faith. When a child does or says something wrong, first we tell them not to thing that way then we tell them why, that way they learn to discern good from bad. We don't wipe it away, as in take it down, because they may do the same again, we discuss, teach, correct, learn, every day we all learn. Those are my thoughts and the reason I added the video.

As for the remaining comment in the first paragraph I will watch that part of the video again before commenting, except to say, I did think the guy was a little vague regarding the soul and where it goes.

As we know God created man, he breathed into him the breath of life, and man BECAME a living soul.

Regarding your comment that there is nothing in scripture that confirms a compartment of sections in Hades, there is, but it is in the translations we see this, through the true meaning of the words, please check out Posts 42 & 43 of this thread.

I am going through the whole video and checking every verse quoted, every statement quoted and the context in which he stated the things, along with the context in scripture.

Following on from your comments where I can at this stage...

We all know the spirit and the soul are two different elements, as stated above I think he was a little vague on what he says about the soul.

Paradise is a portion or section in Hades see Posts 42 & 43 mentioned above.

I think when he said the soul is eternal he was saying, because the soul is conscious in hades awaiting judgement, and when all will be raised to judgement, we with out spirit and soul will stand before Christ, conscious and resurrected, some to eternal destruction, some to eternal life. When he refers to being immortal I think he is referring to saved souls with our 'new bodies' having being reclothed in righteous, and to live with the Lord forever. Again when he says the resurrected body will be different to the earthly body it will be in that it is everlasting.

All these points you raise are great for our continued discussion as a group, it is right to consider all options, all scriptures, but in context and correctly translated.

I cannot comment further on the items stated in the video without watching it again and carefully considering the context(s) of every part.

Thank you for taking part, every day is a school day, everyday we can ALL learn something, especially in scripture.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

The word Paradise translated, from the follow scripture from when Jesus was on the cross

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


PARADISE

Greek Strong's Number: G3857

Greek Word: παράδεισος

Transliteration: paradeisos

Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ad'-i-sos

Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>

Vine's Words: Paradise

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:

paradise 3

[Total Count: 3]

of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.

From the Hebrew.....

Hebrew Strong's Number: H6508

Hebrew Word: ‏פַּרְדֵּס‎

Transliteration: pardēs

Phonetic Pronunciation: par-dace'

Root: of foreign origin, Greek < G3857>

Vine's Words: None

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:

orchard 2
forest 1

[Total Count: 3]

of foreign origin; a park :- forest, orchard.

Strong, J. (2020) Strongs Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary


PARADISE part of Hades, a section in Hades, the place of the disembodied spirits, is a place, according to the above, like a park, with trees, a place saved souls will be happy, certainly not Hades for the unsaved which is a place, a section, in Hades where the unsaved will be in torment. Both remain here until Judgement day.

It appears to be referring to a place like the Garden of Eden, I feel that is the picture it is giving us. We are to think of the place we go as saved souths, will be lovely, peaceful, enjoyable, a place we will be happy whist we wait for the coming day.

Comments with scripture backing always welcome, it is good to share these things together.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Previous posts have included HADES, twice called HELL in the KJV but correct later in the NJKV to HADES

Here we have reference HELL, not to be mistaken with Hades, taken from 2 Peter

2 Peter 2:4 KJV
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:4 NKJV
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Greek Strong's Number: G5020

Greek Word: ταρταρόω

Transliteration: tartaroō

Phonetic Pronunciation: tar-tar-o'-o

Root: from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of HELL)

Vine's Words: None

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:

cast down to hell 1

[Total Count: 1]

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment :- cast down to hell.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Having looked at the items in the last posts, Hades, which is a section of Hades, called Paradise, referred to as Abraham's Bosom, I think it is worth looking at the meaning of the following word as it is all related. What a wonderful picture is coming together for the place every saved soul will go whilst waiting judgement.

COMFORTED.

Luke 16:25 KJV
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received the good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

This is referring to Saved souls in Hades

COMFORTED
Greek Strong's Number: G3870
Greek Word: παρακαλέω
Transliteration: parakaleō
Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ak-al-eh'-o
Root: from <G3844> and <G2564>

Vine's Words: Beseech, Comfort, Comforter, Comfortless, Exhort, Exhortation, Intreat, Intreaty
Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
beseech 43
comfort 23
exhort 21
desire 8
pray 6
intreat 3
miscellaneous translations 4
vr besought 1
[Total Count: 109]

from <G3844> (para) and <G2564> (kaleo); to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation) :- beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), entreat, pray.

What a wonderful waiting place we will have in the Paradise section of Hades whilst waiting judgement

How different is comparted to the section in Hades for the unsaved.

In brief tormented translates - G3600
Anguish, Sorrow, Sorrowful, Torment

 

[Butch5]

Greetings @Butch5

Thank you for your comments, though I have to disagree with some of them.

Your first paragraph, the video ought to be taken down.

I have to totally disagree my friend, the video may have some errors, but it also has a lot of correct statements, it also confirms errors in scripture translation which when checked out are 100% correct.

When we share any form of video teaching or similar, we do so bringing to the brethren to confirm or disagree with the parts as they feel lead to do so, then we discuss them together, that helps people grow in faith. When a child does or says something wrong, first we tell them not to thing that way then we tell them why, that way they learn to discern good from bad. We don't wipe it away, as in take it down, because they may do the same again, we discuss, teach, correct, learn, every day we all learn. Those are my thoughts and the reason I added the video.

As for the remaining comment in the first paragraph I will watch that part of the video again before commenting, except to say, I did think the guy was a little vague regarding the soul and where it goes.

As we know God created man, he breathed into him the breath of life, and man BECAME a living soul.

Regarding your comment that there is nothing in scripture that confirms a compartment of sections in Hades, there is, but it is in the translations we see this, through the true meaning of the words, please check out Posts 42 & 43 of this thread.

I am going through the whole video and checking every verse quoted, every statement quoted and the context in which he stated the things, along with the context in scripture.

Following on from your comments where I can at this stage...

We all know the spirit and the soul are two different elements, as stated above I think he was a little vague on what he says about the soul.

Paradise is a portion or section in Hades see Posts 42 & 43 mentioned above.

I think when he said the soul is eternal he was saying, because the soul is conscious in hades awaiting judgement, and when all will be raised to judgement, we with out spirit and soul will stand before Christ, conscious and resurrected, some to eternal destruction, some to eternal life. When he refers to being immortal I think he is referring to saved souls with our 'new bodies' having being reclothed in righteous, and to live with the Lord forever. Again when he says the resurrected body will be different to the earthly body it will be in that it is everlasting.

All these points you raise are great for our continued discussion as a group, it is right to consider all options, all scriptures, but in context and correctly translated.

I cannot comment further on the items stated in the video without watching it again and carefully considering the context(s) of every part.

Thank you for taking part, every day is a school day, everyday we can ALL learn something, especially in scripture.

Bless you

HI Brother Paul,

The reason I said they should take the video down is that I don't see a point in teaching people something that is wrong and then explaining to them why it's wrong. Why not just teach them what is correct to begin with? We can avoid dealing with a lot of the errors by simply addressing his premise. In the video he says that when a person is conceived God put an eternal soul into the person. That statement runs counter to what Paul said, the Father alone has immortality. If Paul is correct and the Father alone has immortality, then man doesn't. If that's the case then the whole video falls apart unless one claims that God gives immortality to the wicked to torment them.

Another issue is the statement that the soul comes from Heaven, yet Gen 2:7 says the man became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. It says he became a soul. It doesn't say a soul came from Heaven and was put into him.

I looked at posts 42 and 43. It seems to me your conflating hades with the lower parts of the earth. As we see in the definitions, land is also given as a definition. It's also the definition given in Genesis.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:9-10 KJV)

Christ descended to the lower parts of the land. I see no legitimate reason to call this Hades. Christ descended to the earth (land) and then He ascended back to Heaven. I see nothing that would indicate that Jesus was inside of the earth's crust.

Can we find anything in Scripture to validate these points? I think we have to be very careful and consider our presuppositions here to make sure they are not influencing our study.

 

[Brother-Paul]

HI Brother Paul,

The reason I said they should take the video down is that I don't see a point in teaching people something that is wrong and then explaining to them why it's wrong. Why not just teach them what is correct to begin with? We can avoid dealing with a lot of the errors by simply addressing his premise. In the video he says that when a person is conceived God put an eternal soul into the person. That statement runs counter to what Paul said, the Father alone has immortality. If Paul is correct and the Father alone has immortality, then man doesn't. If that's the case then the whole video falls apart unless one claims that God gives immortality to the wicked to torment them.

Another issue is the statement that the soul comes from Heaven, yet Gen 2:7 says the man became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. It says he became a soul. It doesn't say a soul came from Heaven and was put into him.

I understand totally what you are saying brother, but there are two sides to a story, two edges to a sword, and between good and bad there are a lot of variations and approaches.

A pastor could genuinely teach his flock the truth, then they see this video, or any other and have question, who is right, the pastor one would hope. On the other hand by watching the video and considering the right and the wrong people understand easier and if see the video later do not have questions. Therefore, I consider although the video has some errors on the whole there is a lot of sense and many of the topics discussed on here recently are quoted in the video.

I looked at posts 42 and 43. It seems to me your conflating hades with the lower parts of the earth.

Hades is quoted in scripture, as is hell, also the guy confirms the error in translation which I have checked and he is correct in pointing that out, also that although two different verses in the KJV quoted HELL and are actually HADES, it is important we realise that, it also removes a lot of wrong thinking and uncertainty as to what is Hades and what is Hell. That is how I see it my friend, you may not.

As we see in the definitions, land is also given as a definition. It's also the definition given in Genesis.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:9-10 KJV)

Christ descended to the lower parts of the land. I see no legitimate reason to call this Hades. Christ descended to the earth (land) and then He ascended back to Heaven. I see nothing that would indicate that Jesus was inside of the earth's crust.

Can we find anything in Scripture to validate these points? I think we have to be very careful and consider our presuppositions here to make sure they are not influencing our study.

What is land? top soil, sand and gravel, loam, stone, rock, etc. etc. When we excavate for a foundation we do so down to clay or rock.

Ephesians 4:7-10 refers to in v9, Jesus went to Paradise, in Hades, in the lower parts of the earth. G2737 Lower, G3313 Parts, G1093 Earth, we also see in the definitions Earth 188 times used, land 42 times ground 18. So it was clearly, as I see it and as stated above, 'the LOWER PARTS of the EARTH'

We do have to be very careful, we all full agree, but it is also wrong, I think, to single out the word 'earth' and what other scripture tells us about lower parts of it.

In His Love

 

[Butch5]

The word Paradise translated, from the follow scripture from when Jesus was on the cross

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


PARADISE

Greek Strong's Number: G3857

Greek Word: παράδεισος

Transliteration: paradeisos

Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ad'-i-sos

Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>

Vine's Words: Paradise

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:

paradise 3

[Total Count: 3]

of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.

From the Hebrew.....

Hebrew Strong's Number: H6508

Hebrew Word: ‏פַּרְדֵּס‎

Transliteration: pardēs

Phonetic Pronunciation: par-dace'

Root: of foreign origin, Greek < G3857>

Vine's Words: None

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:

orchard 2
forest 1

[Total Count: 3]

of foreign origin; a park :- forest, orchard.

Strong, J. (2020) Strongs Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary


PARADISE part of Hades, a section in Hades, the place of the disembodied spirits, is a place, according to the above, like a park, with trees, a place saved souls will be happy, certainly not Hades for the unsaved which is a place, a section, in Hades where the unsaved will be in torment. Both remain here until Judgement day.

It appears to be referring to a place like the Garden of Eden, I feel that is the picture it is giving us. We are to think of the place we go as saved souths, will be lovely, peaceful, enjoyable, a place we will be happy whist we wait for the coming day.

Comments with scripture backing always welcome, it is good to share these things together.

Shalom

Hi Brother Paul,

I'm not sure if this is Strong's commentary or yours,
Let
"PARADISE part of Hades, a section in Hades, the place of the disembodied spirits, is a place, according to the above, like a park, with trees, a place saved souls will be happy, certainly not Hades for the unsaved which is a place, a section, in Hades where the unsaved will be in torment. Both remain here until Judgement day."

I would submit that this is not the case. Can we find a single passage of Scripture that says there is a section of Hades called Paradise?

The only reason people think that Paradise is in Hades is because of a misplaced comma in Luke 23:43. There was no comma in the original language. The comma is a translator addition. It's simply the opinion of the translator.

Let's look at the passage you quoted.

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:35-43 KJV)

So, the thief, a man dying on the cross next to Jesus, makes a death bed request. His request is that Jesus would remember him when Jesus comes into His Kingdom. What was Jesus' response? Was it, don't worry about the Kingdom, let me tell you what's going to happen this afternoon? Or, did Jesus honor his request? The man wasn't concerned with where he'd be later that day. He wanted assurance he'd make it into the Kingdom of God. What was Jesus' reply to his request? Surely you will be with Me in Paradise. In other words surely you will be with me in the Kingdom of God. This tells us that Paradise, contrary to popular belief, isn't in Hades, its in the Kingdom of God.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

We see here that the Tree of Life is in the Paradise of God. It's there for the overcomers. Notice that the overcomers will be in Paradise to eat of the Tree of Life.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (Gen. 2:8 KJV)

The Lord God planted a Paradise eastward in Eden. We know the Tree of Life was in the Paradise of Eden. What we see from this is that in the end God will restore things to how they were in the beginning. In the beginning Adam and Eve could eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. In the end we see believers eating from the Tree of Life and living forever. In the beginning they were in Paradise and in the end they will be in Paradise. This is what the thief was requesting.

 

[Butch5]

I understand totally what you are saying brother, but there are two sides to a story, two edges to a sword, and between good and bad there are a lot of variations and approaches.

A pastor could genuinely teach his flock the truth, then they see this video, or any other and have question, who is right, the pastor one would hope. On the other hand by watching the video and considering the right and the wrong people understand easier and if see the video later do not have questions. Therefore, I consider although the video has some errors on the whole there is a lot of sense and many of the topics discussed on here recently are quoted in the video.

Hi Brother Paul,

My point is that I see the video as primarily error. I see little that is correct. I think we should be so familiar with the truth that we easily spot error. When the Government teaches agents to recognize counterfeit bills, they become so familiar with the real money that they can easily spot the counterfeit.

Hades is quoted in scripture, as is hell, also the guy confirms the error in translation which I have checked and he is correct in pointing that out, also that although two different verses in the KJV quoted HELL and are actually HADES, it is important we realise that, it also removes a lot of wrong thinking and uncertainty as to what is Hades and what is Hell. That is how I see it my friend, you may not.

Yes, I'm aware of the translation errors. I've been an advocate of doing away with the word hell. My question is where are these divisions in Hades?

What is land? top soil, sand and gravel, loam, stone, rock, etc. etc. When we excavate for a foundation we do so down to clay or rock.

Ephesians 4:7-10 refers to in v9, Jesus went to Paradise, in Hades, in the lower parts of the earth. G2737 Lower, G3313 Parts, G1093 Earth, we also see in the definitions Earth 188 times used, land 42 times ground 18. So it was clearly, as I see it and as stated above, 'the LOWER PARTS of the EARTH'

We do have to be very careful, we all full agree, but it is also wrong, I think, to single out the word 'earth' and what other scripture tells us about lower parts of it.

In His Love

Let me ask this, what Scripture passage and/or justification is there for saying that the lower parts of the earth is Hades?

I really believe that this conflating of places based on understandings of certain passages is causing much confusion. I've seen, the lower parts of the earth, referred to as Hades, Paradise referred to as Hades, and the gnashing of teeth and outer darkness referred to as Hades. My question is, do we have any Biblical justification for making such claims. Because, if these are all different things, then many people are way off base in their beliefs. I believe we've got to have some Biblical justification for these claims

 

[Butch5]

What if we looked at this from a common sense point of view. John said,

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)

Here John gives us the purpose for Jesus' coming. Let's just read the passage. God gave His Son that those who believe should not perish but have everlasting life. What are the implications here? One is that people are perishing. Christ came to remedy that. A certain group could avoid perishing. This group is those who believe. What can we glean from this. Those who believe will not perish, but those who don't believe will perish. Firstly we note that they will perish. John didn't say that those who don't believe would suffer eternal torment. He said they would perish. He said that those who believe would receive eternal life.

Now, let's look at the common belief. It says that all people get eternal life and none perish. It says that rather than perish they will suffer eternal torment. Call me crazy, but this seems to be the exact opposite of what John said. The question that comes to my mind is, how did we get a doctrine so diametrically opposed to this plain reading of John 3:16. I don't believe this passage is ambiguous. It seems pretty straight forward.

Since these two ideas oppose one another they cannot both be true. One of them has to be wrong. One of them is a statement from an Apostle, the other is a doctrine of men. I'll leave you to make the decision.

Another question that comes to mind is this, if man already has eternal life and will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell, why did God promise eternal life to the one who believes? Why would God promise eternal life to people who already have eternal life? The whole promise of following Jesus is to receive eternal life. Why would one need to do that if they already have eternal life? All through the Scriptures we see the choice is between life and death, not Heaven and Hell. So, the argument that the reason to follow Christ is to go to Heaven and avoid Hell falls apart. That's the not the choice man is given, it's life or death.

There is a lot more that can be said on this. I do believe if we are open and consider the evidence fairly we can only come to one conclusion.

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi guys,

I've just watched the video. It left me with mixed emotions, gratitude to God for His plan of redemption and the execution of that plan, and 'oh at what a cost', and a feeling of dread having seen and been reminded about the fate of unbelieving fond close relatives, dear friends and some lovely colleagues. To me, this video is a graphic account of my inevitable fate had I not found Christ and bearing in mind the immeasurable love of God, the reason why He could not stand by and idly watch billions of people who love Him to slide into Satan's clutches. God had to intervene, He had to destroy Satan and rescue His people, He had no choice. If God had said no, 'I'm not prepared to sacrifice my Son, He's too precious for that;' that would have exposed the limits of His love. Thus proving, there are no limits.

I note some quite negative comments have been made about the video in this thread by so called self appointed experts. There are parts of the Bible that are black and white; anyone trying to reinterpret them are heretics and we're advised to shun them. Other parts are not quite so clear, OP lists a whole raft of these in the form of some very thought provoking questions. When experts tell me this is the definitive interpretation of what this passage means, and if you don't agree with me, then you're somewhere between error and heresy; that exposes a lack of love and zero respect by that expert towards his / her brother or sister. When experts tell me, I hear what you're saying but I see it differently .... That will provoke a really interesting debate, further questions and far more light than heat. I see way too much of the former in TJ and to be honest, it makes for very dull reading.

Please TJ'ers, love, respect and help each other to the glory of God, rather than point scoring and self satisfaction.

May God bless you all, increase your experience and awareness of Him and continue and enhance your transformation to Christ-like.