Where do we go when we die?

[Brother-Paul]

I laughing at you, Most likely "Brother-Paul" has forgotten more than you know. And you are in error and don't even know it. And you going to teach him. Hello!

I can't remember that one PB

 

[Brother-Paul]

Bunny,

I don't know if your intellect is on a higher plane than mine, one to which I couldn't begin to aspire to - or if you've completely missed the point. @Brother-Paul shares a video (I've not looked at it yet but I fully intend to) he prefaces it with a whole list of really thought provoking questions and notions that have got my gastric juices flowing and your response is ... errr Ecclesiastes 12. What? I'm not sure I can see the link either but when asked to explain you just call @Brother-Paul 'thick' or words to that effect.

I'm sorry, but that's out of order and not in-keeping with the spirit of love that we're supposed to feel towards one another John 13:35. I've seen too many similar instances here in TJ and bit my lip.

BTW, IMO Ecclesiastes is a book to be studied in context and to quote from it risks out of context error. It's purpose is to show to us that human ambitions, including wisdom, have very limited long term worth. It was written by Solomon way after his mid-life crisis, he was in 'grumpy old man' mindset, summed up in Ecclesiastes 12:8.

Dear brother,

I thank you for seeing the points raised, many have been discussed at length on TJ. After watching the video several times, and taking notes to follow through my studies, especially the confusion in translation in the KJV, which were corrected in the NKJV, one reason I read the NKJV more but always compare them.

Regarding Ecclesiastes, you are spot on here when you quote context. It is so important, it will make more sense when you watch the video, it is quoted and should be noted.

I am not saying the video is 100% as I will flow through my study on every quote, but what I do say is it is well presented, scripture based, and it covers all of the things I listed to make us thirsty, to watch it, check it and as necessary discuss it.

Sadly the thread got off to a bad start, I do not know what people are thinking, but we do know someone who dies.

Bless you brother

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hopefully the moderators can sit back and have a cuppa, and we can move on with the topic as hoped.

I His Love

 

[Peter]

Yes you do care ....... Because you must also believe the "promise" in order to love him with all of your heart, soul, and mind. "The Hope of Glory"

I've been to hell on earth and was about to go to the real one. I pleaded for God's mercy and He saved me from my predicament. God's mercy and grace has been saving this retched soul ever since that day of 25MAY88. I love the Love that loves me out of pure gratitude, and not for some promise. If God still wants me in hell, so be it _ I'll go still loving the Love that loves me.

 

[Peter]

Greeting Peter,

Thank you for your comments, they are so true.

The reason for sharing the video was that it answers many questions that have been discussed on here over recent months.

I agree with your comments 100% but feel there are a couple of reasons for knowing what happens when we die.

1 - We wouldn't go on holiday to another country, without checking what we need and looking into the nice things we are to see and enjoy.

2 - There is so much 'Fake teaching and preaching around' having been warned by Jesus about such things, for me, I prefer to know more, so we can share The Truth with others.

There are some ministers who think we will sit on clouds strumming a harp. There are so many funeral services where even ministers tell untruths to the ones still living. The person just passed away has gone to heaven, God has created a place for them, etc.

Where we go when we die has become a Mish Mash of worldy ideas, many preached in places of worship because, the minister doesn't know, or he is being compassionate si tells a lie they will accept.

Bless you brother

God (Truth) is the Greater Reality, and is eternal. Truth cannot be compromised and therefore unconditional.
What dies is whatever is, and or has become, untrue, unreal, and conditional (a fear-based idea of what is real).

Though we have a body, we are not the body. The person who believes that they are the body, so too does their soul, and both body and soul will die.
We are not here for the self, but for the One that sent us (our inner being / spirit).

We cannot experience death, for we are dead, but we can experience dying. We all have been experiencing the dying of the soul through our own choices of believing what is not true (whatever we make conditional). Broken hearts, disappointments, anger, prejudice, jealousy, envy, resentment, etc., they are all fear-based conditional worldly life circumstances. They are all based on the fear of not getting OUR WAY. So what if we don't get our way, we are still okay. . . but most people feel something is missing (the denial of their soul).

Those that reference life by the body-mind are bound to be self-determinating and conditional. They see the world as the only reality, and any other imagined world becomes based on that).

Those (like Jesus Christ) that reference life by the spirit-mind are bound to be God-determinating and unconditional. They are aware of the truth and the way and the life through Jesus Christ. They 'know' the Truth, and see the world they world through as a sham, unrealistic, fear-based, and conditional. They are aware that the Greater Reality is the Truth and nothing but the truth. Truth is realized by unconditional Faith, and expressed by unconditional Love. Without Faith and Love, there is no Truth _ that is Death.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings Peter,

The topic is where we go when we die, we being the components of the body, flesh, spirit, soul, saved and unsaved.

The topic is based on what scriptures says about these things, not hearsay, not what the world thinks, not what some pastors preach but what The Word says.

The reason is clear, it is due to misunderstanding, wrong preaching and the world is full of ideas, most through fear, most wrong.

It is therefore appropriate to study together what scripture says on the topic. Many points in my first post relate to this subject and most have been discussed over the last few months and will keep coming back. For me, my thirst is in The Word, what does scripture today, what do the scriptures say, are we understanding those scriptures in the topic, are the scriptures relating to the topic correctly translated and in when they are are we reading them in context.

For me, if we do not know what happens when we die, saved or unsaved, how can we correct wrong thinking from others.

In His Love

 

[Hekuran]

Sorry to say, the video in the opening post has it wrong on a number of levels

The Bible very clearly teaches that God made humans to be stewards of the earth, and that the earthly domain was to be in perfect harmony with the heavenly realm. Adam disobeyed, sin entered the world, was cast from the Garden of Eden. From then a divide between God and humans, heaven and earth opened

God's plan of salvation has always been to restore and redeem the whole of creation. See Isaiah 65, Romans 8 and the final two chapters of Revelation. Notice in Revelation 21:1 that the heavenly city comes to earth, not that God's people go to heaven. In the same passage

Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Our hope and destiny is in resurrection. We will rise from the grave to a creation that is once again in perfect harmony with God's purposes, will and his character. There will be no more death or decay. God will dwell with us, and we will know him perfectly.

The Bible never frames our ultimate hope as 'going to heaven', always as resurrection. The most extensive discussion of what happens after death is in 1 Corinthians 15.

Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[BunnyOnion]

And I don't find your lack of understanding funny, further to that I don't find your attitude funny.

How can you say, a person has a lack of understanding, when you don't understand quoting a full chapter with no further comments leaves the reader wondering, why is this person being so vague?

I do hope this helps you understand, that the misunderstanding was obvious to be, because you didn't understand by adding a little more to your comment it would have been clearer which part of the chapter or verse(s) you were referring to. Then we would all understand if you understand what I am saying.

One thing I thing is clear, it is not funny!

Shalom

My apologies. I wasn't aware until now that you are unaware of the whole of the Ecclesiastes chapter 12, which I linked in my reply that excised verse 7 to answer the OP question directly.

With regard to my attitude that you feel the need to judge, that's on you.
You asked a question in the OP.

You should appreciate the answers that arrive gleaned from God's word.
If those passages shared don't comport with your preferred answer, that too is on you.

My reply was derived from scripture. And verse 7 was linked to the full chapter from whence it was gleaned, as is obvious from the link font color change in the reply, in order to insure context. Therefore, my reply was not vague in the least.

If you don't approve what God said, that too is on you.
Please don't be rude because you disagree.

 

[B-A-C]

Sorry to say, the video in the opening post has it wrong on a number of levels

Agreed.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry to say, the video in the opening post has it wrong on a number of levels

The Bible very clearly teaches that God made humans to be stewards of the earth, and that the earthly domain was to be in perfect harmony with the heavenly realm. Adam disobeyed, sin entered the world, was cast from the Garden of Eden. From then a divide between God and humans, heaven and earth opened

God's plan of salvation has always been to restore and redeem the whole of creation. See Isaiah 65, Romans 8 and the final two chapters of Revelation. Notice in Revelation 21:1 that the heavenly city comes to earth, not that God's people go to heaven. In the same passage

Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Our hope and destiny is in resurrection. We will rise from the grave to a creation that is once again in perfect harmony with God's purposes, will and his character. There will be no more death or decay. God will dwell with us, and we will know him perfectly.

The Bible never frames our ultimate hope as 'going to heaven', always as resurrection. The most extensive discussion of what happens after death is in 1 Corinthians 15.

Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Thank you for your comments brother, the more the better, that is the reason we are sharing this information in this post together.

Regarding the diagram, the first think I noticed was, going to Heaven after judgement, we do not go to heaven, heaven comes down on to earth, the new heaven the new earth, everything is restored, made new.

At that stage I disregarding the final outcome knowing someone would pick it up, and instead concentrated on the items mentioned in the first post.
Hades, Shoel, Abraham's bossom, the rich man, Lazarus, the gulf, etc. All things t have been discussed to some extent recently.

Bless you

 

[BunnyOnion]

Bunny,

I don't know if your intellect is on a higher plane than mine, one to which I couldn't begin to aspire to - or if you've completely missed the point. @Brother-Paul shares a video (I've not looked at it yet but I fully intend to) he prefaces it with a whole list of really thought provoking questions and notions that have got my gastric juices flowing and your response is ... errr Ecclesiastes 12. What? I'm not sure I can see the link either but when asked to explain you just call @Brother-Paul 'thick' or words to that effect.

I'm sorry, but that's out of order and not in-keeping with the spirit of love that we're supposed to feel towards one another John 13:35. I've seen too many similar instances here in TJ and bit my lip.

BTW, IMO Ecclesiastes is a book to be studied in context and to quote from it risks out of context error. It's purpose is to show to us that human ambitions, including wisdom, have very limited long term worth. It was written by Solomon way after his mid-life crisis, he was in 'grumpy old man' mindset, summed up in Ecclesiastes 12:8.

You haven't watched BP's video but you defend it and assail my understanding of it after admitting you don't know what is in the video.

Then you fashion your own judgement of my observation of BP's post regarding lack of understanding implying I said something "to your recollection". And that recollection is wrong, and not at all close to what I actually said and is rude. Which is not the case in my actual post.

I replied to his remark about lack of understanding.

I understood them to be admitting they lack understanding because verse 7 answers directly the OP question. And chapter 22 of Ecclesiastes is linked in order to allow the reader to study the full chapter and understand verse 7 in context.

Their reply implied they didn't understand.
I was making an effort of assist them to understand.

I'm new I don't know BP but for what he tells me in these replies.

I am learning about you all in this thread.
The Bible gives us God's message to the world.
How we behave toward one another when discussing that shows him what it leads us to become.

 

[Brother-Paul]

My apologies. I wasn't aware until now that you are unaware of the whole of the Ecclesiastes chapter 12, which I linked in my reply that excised verse 7 to answer the OP question directly.

With regard to my attitude that you feel the need to judge, that's on you.
You asked a question in the OP.

You should appreciate the answers that arrive gleaned from God's word.
If those passages shared don't comport with your preferred answer, that too is on you.

My reply was derived from scripture. And verse 7 was linked to the full chapter from whence it was gleaned, as is obvious from the link font color change in the reply, in order to insure context. Therefore, my reply was not vague in the least.

If you don't approve what God said, that too is on you.
Please don't be rude because you disagree.

You have not understood one bit, yet others have.

Matthew 7

Do you know what I mean?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry to say, the video in the opening post has it wrong on a number of levels

Greetings @Hekuran @B-A-C and others

Brilliant, now lets discuss together the levels and scriptures of what has been said about the topics, the correct and what may be seen another way from other scriptures.

A good starting platform, we are on the right path

 

[BunnyOnion]

You have not understood one bit, yet others have.

Matthew 7

Do you know what I mean?

Oh, I do see you. Make no mistake.

I'm going to leave this discussion now so as to remove the opportunity for you and your followers to show me more.

 

[BunnyOnion]

God (Truth) is the Greater Reality, and is eternal. Truth cannot be compromised and therefore unconditional.
What dies is whatever is, and or has become, untrue, unreal, and conditional (a fear-based idea of what is real).

Though we have a body, we are not the body. The person who believes that they are the body, so too does their soul, and both body and soul will die.
We are not here for the self, but for the One that sent us (our inner being / spirit).

We cannot experience death, for we are dead, but we can experience dying. We all have been experiencing the dying of the soul through our own choices of believing what is not true (whatever we make conditional). Broken hearts, disappointments, anger, prejudice, jealousy, envy, resentment, etc., they are all fear-based conditional worldly life circumstances. They are all based on the fear of not getting OUR WAY. So what if we don't get our way, we are still okay. . . but most people feel something is missing (the denial of their soul).

Those that reference life by the body-mind are bound to be self-determinating and conditional. They see the world as the only reality, and any other imagined world becomes based on that).

Those (like Jesus Christ) that reference life by the spirit-mind are bound to be God-determinating and unconditional. They are aware of the truth and the way and the life through Jesus Christ. They 'know' the Truth, and see the world they world through as a sham, unrealistic, fear-based, and conditional. They are aware that the Greater Reality is the Truth and nothing but the truth. Truth is realized by unconditional Faith, and expressed by unconditional Love. Without Faith and Love, there is no Truth _ that is Death.

Well said.

Unfortunately, there are many teachings in this world that omt scripture that does not comport with the preferred opinion of those teachers of said doctrine.
This is known as interpolation of the words of God.

We shall all answer for every word we've uttered. Especially in defense of our understanding of God's words. And certainly so when what we prefer him to have said is that which we defend and insist he meant to say.

 

[Hekuran]

Thank you for your comments brother, the more the better, that is the reason we are sharing this information in this post together.

Regarding the diagram, the first think I noticed was, going to Heaven after judgement, we do not go to heaven, heaven comes down on to earth, the new heaven the new earth, everything is restored, made new.

At that stage I disregarding the final outcome knowing someone would pick it up, and instead concentrated on the items mentioned in the first post.
Hades, Shoel, Abraham's bossom, the rich man, Lazarus, the gulf, etc. All things t have been discussed to some extent recently.

Bless you

Bless you too. I find that what the Bible says about what happens between death and the resurrection is not nearly so clearly described as life post-resurrection.

Personally, when I realised (about 10 years ago) the Bible's true teaching on heaven and earth it was a fundamental shift in my faith and my understanding of the world, history and my place in it. Soul-sleep, paradise etc don't have such an impact on the shape of my faith, so I'm happy enough to let that part of the discussion go by.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Bless you too. I find that what the Bible says about what happens between death and the resurrection is not nearly so clearly described as life post-resurrection.

Personally, when I realised (about 10 years ago) the Bible's true teaching on heaven and earth it was a fundamental shift in my faith and my understanding of the world, history and my place in it. Soul-sleep, paradise etc don't have such an impact on the shape of my faith, so I'm happy enough to let that part of the discussion go by.

Thank you for your comments brother

Soul sleep is a definite no-no, I am sure we all agree. It was included along with consciousness as they were mentioned in the video.

The list in post one are meant to be talking points, and to encourage others to confirm scriptures etc that are not included. The more jigsaw pieces added the clearer the picture becomes.

Please feel free to add any comments regarding the levels and scriptures, I always think when we share something like this it is best to encourage group discussions, we are all at different levels in faith, but we are also at different levels in our understanding of the topics.

Every day is a school day my friend

 

[Dave M]

wear is the location of hades??

 

[PloughBoy]

I don't find their admission of lack of understanding to be funny.

Greeting PB

Apology accepted.

Sometimes it is not wise to add petrol to a fire.

Fortunately I do not have a high horse to get off.

Sometimes it is not what is said it us how we say things, and these situations are common in many places of worship. I know, I have been a Christian along time, I have been coming here longer than you, etc, etc.

As we know PB, statement as above from BO can cause friction, retaliation, gossip, back biting, back stabbing and more. All supposedly in Jesus Name.

Peace be with us all.

So true, and when "Jesus" referred to that woman as a "dog,"pertaining to the crumbs that fell down from the masters table. And when he called: The Religious Leaders of that time, a den of Vipers. and on another occasion JESUS told Them that their father was "THE DEVIL", and referred to others "Like Dogs that return to their own vomit" and " A Sow that was washed and return to The MERE" How could Jesus say something like that, That is not being "Kind"
and Loving Let us not stop there: Then He "Proclaim" this:

"There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”…"

No couldn't be, a loving GOD telling His Son "Jesus" to refer to a "women" as a DOG, A Female Pig, and religious Rulers, Their Father is a Devil. What kind of Loving talk is that! The Learned, Intelligent "True Atheist" who knows his Greek and And Hebrew, This is Not A loving GOD and Christians do not know their "Bibles" they Let women rule over them they let Teachers, that do not read or study their Bibles teach their children about a GOD that is Recorded in The Bible. And when their children grow up they find out they have been taught Lies. And now, they Flee from the host of lies and liars they have been taught all their life And the "doors" of churches are being closed at a "Alarming" rate. For our Children have grown up, and they know how to read. And The true Atheist have compelled them to "read" their Bibles and by doing this they have found the "Institutionalize" an Institute of deception.

A True Intelligent Atheist have read The Bible from front to back. And they now how to translate The Hebrew and "Koine Greek"! and know when a "profess or confess christian knows their "Bible" and they spot Liars "2 Miles" out.

My field is not in "Apologetics" but in "Theology Proper" and with the Help of GOD, i can hold my ground there. And "contend for The Faith"

American Standard Version
Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the SAINTS. [He did not say; the faith that was committed unto the WORLD but the Faith that was delivered unto THE SAINTS]

There is a difference.

JESUS SAID:
"You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. ......If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Oh' but, many claim they can name it and claim it, and they can rebuke the Devil and He will Flee, even when one is living in "Complete Disobedience"!

PS. The bible said: "these men has come to our city [world] and "turn it upside down" by the words that have come out of their mouths, they have upsetted our way of living........... And of Jesus, they said He causes "RIOTS"! And Riots so did He cause, by the words that came out of HIS mouth! He Spoke "TRUTH" And how does one love the People of This world, You Speak the "TRUTH" And by Speaking The TRUTH this world Will KILL you and Hate the very GOD in whom you serve. You must die to yourself and become a "Living Sacrifice" This Journey should be taken up when you are YOUNG, and Fit for The Battle and by many Battles through time, you gain "Experience" and "SKILL" and when age come, You have become a person of "counsel". A young man is for war, and a old man is for counsel". for he has become skilled by the Battle, Pertaining to his walk with God throughout his years.

And concerning adding "petrol" to the Fire sometimes you have too, to burn the chaff off. Like you have stated "sometimes".

JESUS SAID:
"But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded. I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

When you have been under The Whip of The Hand of GOD! And The Book of JONAH is more than just a story in The Book, and the fish is not a "Whale". And his name is not "Moby ****" and your name is not "AHAB" For it is "fictional"! But Jonah is real and The prepared Fish that was created especially for Jonah by GOD Takes on a whole new meaning! Like a few years going through "The Dark Night of The Soul" When that 'DARK NIGHT" Spit you Out! ...No one have to tell you what to do and how to do it! Especially latter on when He gives you a refresher course, to remind you This thing is real. and Not "The Good Ship Lollipop"

You can tell Him, well, brother _______ said this, and Pastor_________ said that, You know What HIS reply will be: "WHAT DiD I SAY"! and you know, you cannot lie saying, well I don't know what you said. "That dog ain't going to hunt" your knees is going to start "Knocking" It is judgment time! And GOD will not have "A Bouquet of Flowers" in HIS Hands.

 

[Brother-Paul]

wear is the location of hades??

Greetings Dave

Where is Heaven? The third Heaven, God's abode.

The location of these, we do not need to know brother, God tells us he is in Heaven, Jesus is currently sat at his right hand.

Hades is the same as Shoel, scripture tells us there is one, it tells us who goes there, and to which part, we don't need to know where it is, we know through God's Word there is one.

Bless you brother