Where do we go when we die?

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

I'm not sure if this is Strong's commentary or yours,
Let
"PARADISE part of Hades, a section in Hades, the place of the disembodied spirits, is a place, according to the above, like a park, with trees, a place saved souls will be happy, certainly not Hades for the unsaved which is a place, a section, in Hades where the unsaved will be in torment. Both remain here until Judgement day."

I would submit that this is not the case. Can we find a single passage of Scripture that says there is a section of Hades called Paradise?

Looking back at Post #43

Ephesian 4:7-10

I then referred to verse 9

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Now look at the translated word PARTS

Greek Strong's Number: 3313

Greek Word: μέρος

Transliteration: meros

Phonetic Pronunciation: mer'-os

Root: from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

Vine's Words: Behalf, Country, Craft, Craftsman, Measure, Part, Piece, Portion, Respect, Sort, Trade

English Words used in KJV:

part 24 <<<<<<

portion 3

coast 3

behalf 2

respect 2

miscellaneous translations 9

[Total Count: 43]

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literal or figurative, in a wide application)

 

[Butch5]

Looking back at Post #43

Ephesian 4:7-10

I then referred to verse 9

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Now look at the translated word PARTS

Greek Strong's Number: 3313

Greek Word: μέρος

Transliteration: meros

Phonetic Pronunciation: mer'-os

Root: from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

Vine's Words: Behalf, Country, Craft, Craftsman, Measure, Part, Piece, Portion, Respect, Sort, Trade

English Words used in KJV:

part 24 <<<<<<

portion 3

coast 3

behalf 2

respect 2

miscellaneous translations 9

[Total Count: 43]

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literal or figurative, in a wide application)

Hi Brother Paul,

I see this, but, how does this show us there is a place in Hades called Paradise?

 

[B-A-C]

More correctly, both Hades and Abraham's Bosom were in Sheol. (the grave, the pit, a place of the dead)

Luke 16:22; So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:26; And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

The thought here is that Sheol is shaped like a "T" with Abraham Bosom on one side, and Hades on the other side with a great chasm/canyon between them.

There is some debate over whether Abraham's Bosom is Paradise. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be in Paradise (not Heaven)

Luke 23:43; And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

However Paul says he went to the 3rd heaven, which he called Paradise.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Many believe that no one went to heaven until Jesus sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in Heaven, This is why neither Abraham nor Lazarus, (and probably the thief on the cross) went to heaven.

John 3:13; No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Acts 2:34; "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Now when Jesus descended to the lower parts of the Earth to set the captives free....
Quite a bit on doctrine of many denomination is in this passage.

Eph 4:8; Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this, "HE ASCENDED"—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Some denominations teach that when Jesus "led the captives free" or led captivity captive...
He led the saints in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise to heaven.

Some say Jesus went to hades to "minister to people". But none of my Bibles really say that.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- just because many believe that no one went to heaven until Jesus sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in Heaven -- doesn't make it so. Especially when you brought up Abraham or Lazarus.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

I'm not sure if this is Strong's commentary or yours,
Let
"PARADISE part of Hades, a section in Hades, the place of the disembodied spirits, is a place, according to the above, like a park, with trees, a place saved souls will be happy, certainly not Hades for the unsaved which is a place, a section, in Hades where the unsaved will be in torment. Both remain here until Judgement day."

I would submit that this is not the case. Can we find a single passage of Scripture that says there is a section of Hades called Paradise?

The only reason people think that Paradise is in Hades is because of a misplaced comma in Luke 23:43. There was no comma in the original language. The comma is a translator addition. It's simply the opinion of the translator.

Let's look at the passage you quoted.

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:35-43 KJV)

So, the thief, a man dying on the cross next to Jesus, makes a death bed request. His request is that Jesus would remember him when Jesus comes into His Kingdom. What was Jesus' response? Was it, don't worry about the Kingdom, let me tell you what's going to happen this afternoon? Or, did Jesus honor his request? The man wasn't concerned with where he'd be later that day. He wanted assurance he'd make it into the Kingdom of God. What was Jesus' reply to his request? Surely you will be with Me in Paradise. In other words surely you will be with me in the Kingdom of God. This tells us that Paradise, contrary to popular belief, isn't in Hades, its in the Kingdom of God.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

We see here that the Tree of Life is in the Paradise of God. It's there for the overcomers. Notice that the overcomers will be in Paradise to eat of the Tree of Life.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (Gen. 2:8 KJV)

The Lord God planted a Paradise eastward in Eden. We know the Tree of Life was in the Paradise of Eden. What we see from this is that in the end God will restore things to how they were in the beginning. In the beginning Adam and Eve could eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. In the end we see believers eating from the Tree of Life and living forever. In the beginning they were in Paradise and in the end they will be in Paradise. This is what the thief was requesting.

Greetings

You have not picked up on what was stated from the translations, details quoted in Posts #42 & 43 and as detailed in post 61 above.

What we must always remember, and I say this in love, I also say this as some members don't want to get into translations and I understand that, but at the end of the day, the English language just doesn't have the words from the original Greek or Hebrew. Strongs and Vines are well known and trusted resources providing a bridge, filling a gap, providing a better understanding, without them we cannot always be sure what we read in the Bible is clear to the original words. The Truth is in The Word, but The Word was in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic mainly.

This is not to say the Bible is not right, it is a good understanding and to the best of the translators ability, not an easy job. But errors are made, not just the two quoted from the KJV in this discussion and some translation could be clearer. I am talking translations not rewording of Bibles to make them easier to read, like the GoodNews Bible, The Message Bible and more, these are more prone for us to miss The Truth that Bibles that expound The Word as near as possible. I am sure you are aware but some read may not be, we are writing and sharing together to a congregation, to an audience, to milk and to meat.

Now I take your quote from the following Rev 2:7

I do so to check the translation as same words in translation do not always come from the same Greek or Hebrew word.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

As it appears here this one does and is as quoted previously

PARADISE
Greek Strong's Number: 3857
Greek Word: παράδεισος
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ad'-i-sos

Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>

Vine's Words: Paradise
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
paradise 3
[Total Count: 3]

of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.

From: Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. --- I like this one as it includes a little more, it also includes the Phonetic Pronunciation.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@B-A-C -- just because many believe that no one went to heaven until Jesus sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in Heaven -- doesn't make it so. Especially when you brought up Abraham or Lazarus.

Totally agree Sue, it is not down to what many think, nor is it down to what denominations thing. It is down to The Word of God, using the nearest and best translations to The Truth in The Word.

But it is good to listen to each other and compare scriptures together.

Bless you

 

[Dave M]

Greetings Dave

Where is Heaven? The third Heaven, God's abode.

The location of these, we do not need to know brother, God tells us he is in Heaven, Jesus is currently sat at his right hand.

Hades is the same as Shoel, scripture tells us there is one, it tells us who goes there, and to which part, we don't need to know where it is, we know through God's Word there is one.

Bless you brother

Scripture says Jesus descended to the lower regions of the earth, I take this to mean hades whear the ot saints were in the the earths lower regions, I am pretty sure there are other refrences in the bible suggesting that hades is in the earths lower egions

Ephesians 4:9
(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?


Then scripture says he also ascended but is say some more prior to that it seems when he ascended (to which I take as going to heaven) he had people with him and he is going to give the gifts, seems these people were heading to heaven with Jesus.

Ephesians 4:8
8 Therefore it says,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,and he gave gifts to men.”[a]

 

[Butch5]

More correctly, both Hades and Abraham's Bosom were in Sheol. (the grave, the pit, a place of the dead)

Luke 16:22; So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:26; And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

The thought here is that Sheol is shaped like a "T" with Abraham Bosom on one side, and Hades on the other side with a great chasm/canyon between them.

There is some debate over whether Abraham's Bosom is Paradise. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be in Paradise (not Heaven)

Luke 23:43; And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

However Paul says he went to the 3rd heaven, which he called Paradise.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Many believe that no one went to heaven until Jesus sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in Heaven, This is why neither Abraham nor Lazarus, (and probably the thief on the cross) went to heaven.

John 3:13; No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Acts 2:34; "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Now when Jesus descended to the lower parts of the Earth to set the captives free....
Quite a bit on doctrine of many denomination is in this passage.

Eph 4:8; Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this, "HE ASCENDED"—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Some denominations teach that when Jesus "led the captives free" or led captivity captive...
He led the saints in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise to heaven.

Some say Jesus went to hades to "minister to people". But none of my Bibles really say that.

Hi B-A-C,

What I find troubling is that these ideas are being drawn from a single passage of Scripture with nothing else to back them up. There's nothing in Scripture that says Paradise is in Hades. It's an idea that people draw from the passage of the thief. This passage about Abraham's bosom is a single passage of Scripture. Nothing else in Scripture tells us that Abraham's bosom is in a subterranean location with ghosts.

Why do we assume that Abraham's bosom is a location in the earth, but not conclude that Jesus' bosom is a location in the earth or that the Father's bosom is a location in the earth?

 

[PloughBoy]

Have anyone ever read or own a copy of"The Works of Flavius Josephus" The Jewish Historian? And his account of "Hades" in "speculated" terms, concerning "Abraham's Buxom" in which is very interesting and makes "Terrifying Sense" for the departure of ones "earthly house" of this tabernacle.

Especially if you have watch the departure of lost souls and those who died who always talked about JESUS day and night. And if you know or have worked in a "Funeral Home" about the Fear of some who have died out of Christ and how hard they have to work to take the stamp of fear, terror that has been engrave on their faces. And the Smile of the true child of GOD that cannot be wipe off when they have depart. It is a difference.
So when you read about "Josephus" account about departed souls into Hades it makes sense. When you die, you enter the "spiritual" world. And The Angels of GOD are going to be "Terrifying" to you Because they are going to be waiting for you! Either you are going to be Lead or you are going to be DRAG!

Josephus, will put another bounce in your step! Hades ain't no joke! You don't have to worry about the demons, Those Holy Angels, is going to make demons look like "Choir Boys" they will be separating the "wheat from the Tare". "damnation" by way of "Terrorization" will have stages before you get to the "lake of Fire and Burning Brimstone" This thought is not "speculation" this "terrorization" is recorded in the "BOOK".

New American Standard Bible
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

PS, I am going try my best, to not be in "The oops Zone" If you say oops, game over It is OVER! Jesus can't help you, if you have arrived to the oops Zone.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings

You have not picked up on what was stated from the translations, details quoted in Posts #42 & 43 and as detailed in post 61 above.

What we must always remember, and I say this in love, I also say this as some members don't want to get into translations and I understand that, but at the end of the day, the English language just doesn't have the words from the original Greek or Hebrew. Strongs and Vines are well known and trusted resources providing a bridge, filling a gap, providing a better understanding, without them we cannot always be sure what we read in the Bible is clear to the original words. The Truth is in The Word, but The Word was in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic mainly.

This is not to say the Bible is not right, it is a good understanding and to the best of the translators ability, not an easy job. But errors are made, not just the two quoted from the KJV in this discussion and some translation could be clearer. I am talking translations not rewording of Bibles to make them easier to read, like the GoodNews Bible, The Message Bible and more, these are more prone for us to miss The Truth that Bibles that expound The Word as near as possible. I am sure you are aware but some read may not be, we are writing and sharing together to a congregation, to an audience, to milk and to meat.

Now I take your quote from the following Rev 2:7

I do so to check the translation as same words in translation do not always come from the same Greek or Hebrew word.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

As it appears here this one does and is as quoted previously

PARADISE
Greek Strong's Number: 3857
Greek Word: παράδεισος
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Pronunciation: par-ad'-i-sos

Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>

Vine's Words: Paradise
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
paradise 3
[Total Count: 3]

of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.

From: Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. --- I like this one as it includes a little more, it also includes the Phonetic Pronunciation.

Hi Brother Paul,

What is it that you think I haven't picked up on? I've disagreed that Paradise is a place in Hades. I've not seen anything posted from Scripture that would lead to that conclusion. That may be Strong's belief, and it may be the belief of many Christians, but, as you pointed out, it is the Word that is important. I haven't seen any evidence from the word that indicates that Paradise is in Hades. Even as @B-A-C pointed out. Paul was caught "up" to Paradise, not down. It seems to me that if Paradise was in the lower parts of the earth he would have gone down and not up.

 

[Brother-Paul]

More correctly, both Hades and Abraham's Bosom were in Sheol. (the grave, the pit, a place of the dead)

Greetings brother, what you say here is correct, Shoel was the OT word, Abraham's bosom is referred to in the OT and the NT, Hades is more a NT word though.

Hades and Shoel are the same definition in that they refer to, the dwelling place of the dead, saved and unsaved, both not both in the same section, there is a great gulf between Paradice and Torment parts or sections.

Luke 16:22; So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. [G2859] The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:26; And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

The thought here is that Sheol is shaped like a "T" with Abraham Bosom on one side, and Hades on the other side with a great chasm/canyon between them.

There is some debate over whether Abraham's Bosom is Paradise. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be in Paradise (not Heaven)

Luke 16:22-26 KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom [G2859]: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell [G86 Hades not Hell] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom [G2859].
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:22-26 NKJV

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom [G2859]. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades [G86], he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom [G2859].
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

The Greek word for Hades is G86
The Hebrew word for Shoel is H7585

Strong's Concordance
SHOEL: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Shoel and Hades both refer to 'the dwelling place of dead' also called 'the underworld'

Luke 23:43; And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Paradise here is
Greek Strong's Number: 3857
Greek Word: παράδεισος
Transliteration: paradeisos
a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “ paradise”) :- paradise.

However Paul says he went to the 3rd heaven, which he called Paradise.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This is an interesting one brother, thank you for raising it. It is also quite a confusing one.

Allow me to also add

John 3:3 & 5 KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Verily, Verily (double emphasis) very very import Jesus said.

So was Paul an exception to the rule, or more likely, I think, he was 'Caught up - In the Spirit'

Hades and Shoel refer to the place of waiting for disembodied spirits, a waiting place awaiting judgement, awaiting Resurrection Day.

Paradise in 2 Cor 12:4 is the same as previous... G3857

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Have anyone ever read or own a copy of"The Works of Flavius Josephus" The Jewish Historian? And his account of "Hades" in "speculated" terms, concerning "Abraham's Buxom" in which is very interesting and makes "Terrifying Sense" for the departure of ones "earthly house" of this tabernacle.

Are you referring to Select Works of Josephus (8 Volumes)?

I am only mentioning the following as I see the funny side. Are you referring to Abraham's Bosom or his bottom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Scripture says Jesus descended to the lower regions of the earth, I take this to mean hades whear the ot saints were in the the earths lower regions, I am pretty sure there are other refrences in the bible suggesting that hades is in the earths lower egions

Hi Dave

That is true and as confirmed in Posts 42, 43 and 61 and others which include translation details from Strongs and Vines.

Hades (Greek) is in the lower regions of the earth, (Called Shoel in OT Hebrew)

It is a place for ALL souls, Saved and unsaved.

Hades is 'a section' in the earth, beneath the earth, in the lower regions, it is Paradise for the saved, it is a place of torment for the lost, with the great divide, the great gulf between the two.

It is the place of waiting for disembodied spirits, also called an underworld. It is the place where disembodied spirit are waiting for Judgement day, what we call Resurrection Day.

Shalom

 

[PloughBoy]

Looking back at Post #43

Ephesian 4:7-10

I then referred to verse 9

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Now look at the translated word PARTS

Greek Strong's Number: 3313

Greek Word: μέρος

Transliteration: meros

Phonetic Pronunciation: mer'-os

Root: from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

Vine's Words: Behalf, Country, Craft, Craftsman, Measure, Part, Piece, Portion, Respect, Sort, Trade

English Words used in KJV:

part 24 <<<<<<

portion 3

coast 3

behalf 2

respect 2

miscellaneous translations 9

[Total Count: 43]

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literal or figurative, in a wide application)

May I state this: (Ephesians 4: 9 and 10) and not in The "Original Copied Manuscript" of "The WORD of GOD". It was added to train a thought, to a believeth leading into a train of thoughts by the translators in what they believe the text was trying to say.

I excellent translation will let you know verses 9 and 10 are not the WORDS of GOD in "Ephesians chapter 4" but was put there by the translators. either by Parentheses, footnotes or margins ......I have avoided them in personal study throughout the decades and have come to the conclusion on other things that a Lot of "Theologians" have called sound and I have found their soundness and "Interpretation" come short and by using the same methods of their own methods of "hermeneutics", either "Critical" or "Historical-grammatical"or The Grammatical-Historical methods" Some are so bold they do no their own rules of "Interpretation".

Bottom line; "Ephesians 4: 9,10" is not the "WORD of GOD". And anything, a person draws off of it, it is not "Solid Ground" and the water, that is drawn from that "Well" should not be drunk. [Drink at your own risks].

PS. Your Greek, might be right, but the water ain't

 

[Brother-Paul]

Have anyone ever read or own a copy of"The Works of Flavius Josephus" The Jewish Historian? And his account of "Hades" in "speculated" terms, concerning "Abraham's Buxom" in which is very interesting and makes "Terrifying Sense" for the departure of ones "earthly house" of this tabernacle.

Or is this the one you are referring to?

THE WORKS OF JOSEPHUS

Complete and Unabridged

NEW UPDATED EDITION

Translated by WILLIAM WHISTON, A.M.

THE WORKS OF JOSEPHUS: NEW UPDATED VERSION

Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The works of Josephus: complete and unabridged (pp. v–vi). Peabody: Hendrickson.

I have this but have not read it yet

 

[PloughBoy]

Are you referring to Select Works of Josephus (8 Volumes)?

I am only mentioning the following as I see the funny side. Are you referring to Abraham's Bosom or his bottom

His "Complete Works" early copyright and later copyright. "His Discourse to The Greeks concerning Hades" Chapter.

 

[PloughBoy]

Or is this the one you are referring to?

THE WORKS OF JOSEPHUS

Complete and Unabridged

NEW UPDATED EDITION

Translated by WILLIAM WHISTON, A.M.

THE WORKS OF JOSEPHUS: NEW UPDATED VERSION

Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The works of Josephus: complete and unabridged (pp. v–vi). Peabody: Hendrickson.

I have this but have not read it yet

Complete old and later copies.

 

[B-A-C]

Hades is 'a section' in the earth, beneath the earth, in the lower regions, it is Paradise for the saved, it is a place of torment for the lost, with the great divide, the great gulf between the two.

I think this is where 3 or 4 of us take issue.

Hades is not Sheol, it only the "bad" side of Sheol on the side of the chasm where the rich man was. There is no "paradise" part of Hades, however there was a paradise/Abraham's Bosom part of Sheol.
There is no part of Hades that is not torture and torment.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Dave

That is true and as confirmed in Posts 42, 43 and 61 and others which include translation details from Strongs and Vines.

Hades (Greek) is in the lower regions of the earth, (Called Shoel in OT Hebrew)

It is a place for ALL souls, Saved and unsaved.

Hades is 'a section' in the earth, beneath the earth, in the lower regions, it is Paradise for the saved, it is a place of torment for the lost, with the great divide, the great gulf between the two.

It is the place of waiting for disembodied spirits, also called an underworld. It is the place where disembodied spirit are waiting for Judgement day, what we call Resurrection Day.

Shalom

To back track just a bit.

Your comment "it is a place for ALL souls, saved and unsaved.'

Well -- upon the resurrection -- didn't Jesus Christ bring back up with Him those who'd been waiting For His death, burial and resurrection to take place? Previous to His death, burial and bodily resurrection both the righteous and the Unrighteous were in Abrahams' bosom. Those on the Hades side are still there. Those on the Paradise side were taken back up with Jesus when He resurrected. There's a passage that talks about how many of the graves/ tombs were opened up and the people walked the streets once again?!

Everything else -- absolutely.

This is an interesting 'discussion'.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I think it has settled down Sue, I do agree it is getting more like what discussions should be. I have got so close to leaving on a number of occasions due to dart throwers.

That said I am wacked, very tired, pushing myself to much, so it is good night from me (UK)

Bless you