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Speaking in Tongues: Its Origin [Ancient and Modern] , Purpose, and Power

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Loyal
You asked for it and here it is even if you don't like it!

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

So it's scriptural, my friends! Plus there's the fact that tongues and prophecies vanished as gifts for CENTURIES! It wasn't before some extremists twisted His Word less than 2 centuries ago to let people think they could speak unknown tongues when the Holy Spirit no longer needs to use them because people has found ways to learn other languages. The increase in science in the latter days was also prophesied!
Please stop this nonsense and go get some understanding.
Have you no respect for The Written Word of God?
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Please stop this nonsense and go get some understanding.
Have you no respect for The Written Word of God?
Dear Brother,
Show him where he is wrong. I realize that repeating oneself can at times be a task, but if it helps another grow then it should be a joy.
With that being said. Reply to him rightly or don't reply back to him at all. For your last few replies have not encouraged or been helpful.

With the Love Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><
 
Loyal
I have been Trying to share that at the moment of salvation -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person.

The Holy Spirit Also came upon Mary so that she Could conceive as a virgin and give birth to the Christ child. Which made it possible for Jesus Christ To die on the cross as our substitute and rise again. The virgin birth -- Jesus Christ both 100 % deity and 100% human.

And the Holy Spirit Stays within a believer until they are safely with Jesus Christ.


Paul's ministry -- okay --- Jesus Christ's ministry was for 30 years. those 30 yrs. were Most important.
Still...The Holy Spirit within you does not say that You are in the Spirit
 
Loyal
I am having a hard time to understand the difference between the indwelling and the baptism of the holly spirit, I would think they are the same thing?? can you explain a little more

thanks
When you are born again, you get all of the Holy Spirit. When you are baptized by the Holy Spirit is when He gets all of you!
 
Loyal
Let’s read some passages first.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 13:1-2

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We can clearly learn from them that the gifts have a goal but also an order. In case of speaking in tongues and their interpretation is one of the best cases out there. What benefits would your church get from a so called speaker if nobody ever understands what he is saying? It just ends up being a terrible show worth nothing from a spiritual point of view. Interestingly that is the case in most places because one guy has no slight idea of what the hell the other guy is talking about then. In case you say there is an interpreter at his side, let me tell you that both of those guys are fake and just came up with an act, not better than a comedy standup act.

Who ever told you that believers nowadays ever need to raise their hands to get indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Every believer receives the Gift of Our Savior, His Spirit, after accepting the Lord as his or her own Savior. Sadly, those that wanna treat us like mere merchandise do sell people the idea they got the unction of the Spirit when that can’t be the case anymore!

As the verse 8 already states, prophecies, speaking in tongues and interpreting them have ceased already! Once they ceased, there wouldn’t be any “revival” involving those temporary gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are three reasons why they can’t come back in modern era.

1. The Bible, God’s Word has been completed already! There’s no more need to add anything to it since John ended writing the Book of Revelation. Our Lord Jesus Christ already told us all every single thing we should ever need to know.

2. Isaiah 28:7-11 states that the Lord was addressing to the people of Israel that abandoned His Ways. He would punish them for that in a very curious way, by speaking a different tongue!
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Verses 12 and 13 speak about the rest of His punishment. So the gift of tongues was no kids’ toy but a tool to show Israel how it had been discarded by God for not listening to His Voice. In plain words, it was a miraculous sign God used to tell Israel that the time of their repentance had come and they would still reject Him! As you can confirm, history tells us that most Jews are still unbelievers! Israel still ignores the Lord’s Call! Even if average people speak their own tongue and are able to discuss matters pertaining to their very same Lord, the One they say they still serve, they still dare to disregard His Word!

Whenever you go and read that in the early churches they were capable of speaking tongues, there were Jews that could listen to them! All of them had at least one single Jewish visitor or local attending their meeting or service or was a passerby.

Since most of your cults if not all lack of the presence of Jewish visitors, how do you think that you can just come up with some non sensical words and call them the gift of tongues? Especially when no one ever gets a grasp of what you’re talking about! I’m sorry to tell you this, but stop pretending you’re “more” indwelled by the Holy Spirit than other believers because you have been fooling yourselves by preachers that twisted God’s Word and the wise way He actually works!

3. Those believers needed to prove God was already working in miraculous ways because He was testifying they were His true believers, His humble servants! Nowadays the Bible, His Holy Word, is His Witness.

The temporary gifts of the Spirit ceased to be manifested many centuries ago. Its so called revival or return is nothing but the deceptions that the Lord and His Apostles warned us about to not let the devil and his son of perdition fool us!

Ezekiel 13:8,10
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God.
10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

If ancient so called prophets would be punished for fooling His People, what makes you ever think you’ll get away with that fake show of yours? You only show people stuff that numb their senses! It has a sensual nature that only addresses to the flesh and its lust and not the Spirit nor your own souls in a spiritual way!

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Do you still think that you have been working in God’s Name? You better think it twice!

Matthew 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 24:11,24
11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

2 Peter 2:1-3,12,14,15,17-19
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Yes, those fake prophets and so called apostles are making merchandise of you! Haven’t you noticed how most of them get rich for no good reason? They get expensive clothing, luxury cars, mansions, helicopters, planes, ships and large temples of concrete. Isn’t that even a little suspicious, guys? Since when was the Church called to be rich according to the world? Our treasures as believers should be stored in Heaven awaiting for us!

Don’t forget the Apostle John’s warning for he was a true Apostle hand picked by the Lord Himself!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Sir, you need to show where tongues have ceased....Because they have not.
 
Active
Let’s read some passages first.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 13:1-2

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We can clearly learn from them that the gifts have a goal but also an order. In case of speaking in tongues and their interpretation is one of the best cases out there. What benefits would your church get from a so called speaker if nobody ever understands what he is saying? It just ends up being a terrible show worth nothing from a spiritual point of view. Interestingly that is the case in most places because one guy has no slight idea of what the hell the other guy is talking about then. In case you say there is an interpreter at his side, let me tell you that both of those guys are fake and just came up with an act, not better than a comedy standup act.

Who ever told you that believers nowadays ever need to raise their hands to get indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Every believer receives the Gift of Our Savior, His Spirit, after accepting the Lord as his or her own Savior. Sadly, those that wanna treat us like mere merchandise do sell people the idea they got the unction of the Spirit when that can’t be the case anymore!

As the verse 8 already states, prophecies, speaking in tongues and interpreting them have ceased already! Once they ceased, there wouldn’t be any “revival” involving those temporary gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are three reasons why they can’t come back in modern era.

1. The Bible, God’s Word has been completed already! There’s no more need to add anything to it since John ended writing the Book of Revelation. Our Lord Jesus Christ already told us all every single thing we should ever need to know.

2. Isaiah 28:7-11 states that the Lord was addressing to the people of Israel that abandoned His Ways. He would punish them for that in a very curious way, by speaking a different tongue!
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Verses 12 and 13 speak about the rest of His punishment. So the gift of tongues was no kids’ toy but a tool to show Israel how it had been discarded by God for not listening to His Voice. In plain words, it was a miraculous sign God used to tell Israel that the time of their repentance had come and they would still reject Him! As you can confirm, history tells us that most Jews are still unbelievers! Israel still ignores the Lord’s Call! Even if average people speak their own tongue and are able to discuss matters pertaining to their very same Lord, the One they say they still serve, they still dare to disregard His Word!

Whenever you go and read that in the early churches they were capable of speaking tongues, there were Jews that could listen to them! All of them had at least one single Jewish visitor or local attending their meeting or service or was a passerby.

Since most of your cults if not all lack of the presence of Jewish visitors, how do you think that you can just come up with some non sensical words and call them the gift of tongues? Especially when no one ever gets a grasp of what you’re talking about! I’m sorry to tell you this, but stop pretending you’re “more” indwelled by the Holy Spirit than other believers because you have been fooling yourselves by preachers that twisted God’s Word and the wise way He actually works!

3. Those believers needed to prove God was already working in miraculous ways because He was testifying they were His true believers, His humble servants! Nowadays the Bible, His Holy Word, is His Witness.

The temporary gifts of the Spirit ceased to be manifested many centuries ago. Its so called revival or return is nothing but the deceptions that the Lord and His Apostles warned us about to not let the devil and his son of perdition fool us!

Ezekiel 13:8,10
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God.
10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

If ancient so called prophets would be punished for fooling His People, what makes you ever think you’ll get away with that fake show of yours? You only show people stuff that numb their senses! It has a sensual nature that only addresses to the flesh and its lust and not the Spirit nor your own souls in a spiritual way!

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Do you still think that you have been working in God’s Name? You better think it twice!

Matthew 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 24:11,24
11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

2 Peter 2:1-3,12,14,15,17-19
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Yes, those fake prophets and so called apostles are making merchandise of you! Haven’t you noticed how most of them get rich for no good reason? They get expensive clothing, luxury cars, mansions, helicopters, planes, ships and large temples of concrete. Isn’t that even a little suspicious, guys? Since when was the Church called to be rich according to the world? Our treasures as believers should be stored in Heaven awaiting for us!

Don’t forget the Apostle John’s warning for he was a true Apostle hand picked by the Lord Himself!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
What of the Two WItnesses, of Revelati
 
Member
Sir, you need to show where tongues have ceased....Because they have not.
Actually it should be you the one that need to prove those gifts didn't cease to exist. Can you find any ancient writing from let's say 750 AD or 1200 AD or 1600 AD that proves that there was ANY sign of the speaking in tongues gift whereabouts in those times? It did cease to exist after the Apostle John who was the last remaining Apostle living on earth. Plus you willingly want to deny the fact that nowadays people can go to any of many academies to learn a foreign language. Back in the early Church history there was no such a possibility. The only exceptions were Latin or Greek as lingua franca. Today you can go to an institution and even learn Mandarin if you wanna. There's no need to depend on a sign to learn and speak another language. Besides I already posted a verse in the OT that clearly tells the Jews that He would speak to them in another tongue. So if you say you speak an unknown tongue and there is no Jew around, that gift is not real but a mere trick, just like those imitators that showed up in places the Apostle Paul had visited to preach the Gospel.
 
Loyal
Well said

When you are born again, you get all of the Holy Spirit. When you are baptized by the Holy Spirit is when He gets all of you!

Actually those events are at the same time. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer at the time of their salvation --we get all of Him and He gets all of us -- well -- That can ebb and flow -- like your cars gas tank. We fill it and gradually use the gas and so it needs to be refilled periodically. It's part of how a car runs and it's part of how we operate spiritually.
 
Loyal
That has been a question for a while -- regarding whether speaking in tongues is viable for Today. The phenomena of tongues was seen in Acts when all the Jews from all the areas around were all there to hear Peter preach. There were many dialects represented and each of them could understand Peter when he preached. They were all understanding him because they were able to 'hear' in their own language. Now days there are interpreters available -- people learn various languages before they go to the mission field.

And as has been mentioned --tongues has been specifically if there are non-believing Jews present and there Has to be immediate interpretation and only two or three people are to speak at any given meeting. Probably so that the 'speaking' does not take over the entire service. So -- I dare say that Most of the time , when tongues Are present in a church service, it's not legitimate tongues.

The prophesying -- also mainly just in Old Testament times. We've had the complete Canon of Scripture for a long time. People Have come to Christ Because they've seen the Old Testament prophesies having been fulfilled in the New Testament. But Now we've had the entire Scripture available for a long time. All We need to do is Read it.
 
Loyal
Actually it should be you the one that need to prove those gifts didn't cease to exist. Can you find any ancient writing from let's say 750 AD or 1200 AD or 1600 AD that proves that there was ANY sign of the speaking in tongues gift whereabouts in those times? It did cease to exist after the Apostle John who was the last remaining Apostle living on earth. Plus you willingly want to deny the fact that nowadays people can go to any of many academies to learn a foreign language. Back in the early Church history there was no such a possibility. The only exceptions were Latin or Greek as lingua franca. Today you can go to an institution and even learn Mandarin if you wanna. There's no need to depend on a sign to learn and speak another language. Besides I already posted a verse in the OT that clearly tells the Jews that He would speak to them in another tongue. So if you say you speak an unknown tongue and there is no Jew around, that gift is not real but a mere trick, just like those imitators that showed up in places the Apostle Paul had visited to preach the Gospel.
Let me just say that verse 8 does NOT say tongues have ceased....It says they will cease....NOT the same thing at all...
 
Loyal
Actually those events are at the same time. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer at the time of their salvation --we get all of Him and He gets all of us -- well -- That can ebb and flow -- like your cars gas tank. We fill it and gradually use the gas and so it needs to be refilled periodically. It's part of how a car runs and it's part of how we operate spiritually.
Sue....If those events are at the same time, which at times they are, why are there so many people that pray the prayer, get the Holy Spirit living inside of them, then continue living like hell? They pray the prayer and live the way they choose instead of living the Word. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs when one is born again, then there is a separate and different event when the Holy Spirit gets all of the person.
 
Member
Let me just say that verse 8 does NOT say tongues have ceased....It says they will cease....NOT the same thing at all...
But that's not even a valid argument against the cease! It was present there but only during the times of the Apostles like when Paul wrote that! It's obvious he couldn't say it had ceased right then but after they were no longer here on earth. The point is that is was no longer valid after they had left the world. Besides you didn't prove there was any Jew while those "gifts" were in use in any modern churches.

Plus the Apostle Peter warns us about the latter times and false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1-3.

1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Emphasis is mine. All those that say that they prophesy and speak in tongues are faking it and making merchandise of people listening to them! That's why you all have to be careful and stop listening to their fables and lame tricks! They pretend its the Holy Spirit guiding them but it's their own flesh!
 
Loyal
But that's not even a valid argument against the cease! It was present there but only during the times of the Apostles like when Paul wrote that! It's obvious he couldn't say it had ceased right then but after they were no longer here on earth. The point is that is was no longer valid after they had left the world. Besides you didn't prove there was any Jew while those "gifts" were in use in any modern churches.

Plus the Apostle Peter warns us about the latter times and false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1-3.

1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Emphasis is mine. All those that say that they prophesy and speak in tongues are faking it and making merchandise of people listening to them! That's why you all have to be careful and stop listening to their fables and lame tricks! They pretend its the Holy Spirit guiding them but it's their own flesh!
Firstly, you made the statement that tongues have ceased....Its up to YOU to prove your point with scripture...I'm not trying to prove anything right now...I'm challenging you to prove YOUR point....Which I guess you cannot.
Second, the bible does NOT say tongues were only in use when the disciples were on Earth....Thats another false teaching.. The Bible does NOT say tongues died out EVER! Again you have no scripture for your claim.
Three.....There is a reason Paul spoke about false teachers....They exist today! And YOU are teaching false teachings right on this forum...
 
Moderator
Staff Member
But that's not even a valid argument against the cease! It was present there but only during the times of the Apostles like when Paul wrote that! It's obvious he couldn't say it had ceased right then but after they were no longer here on earth. The point is that is was no longer valid after they had left the world.
Hello SleepyEdwin,
The following is for your consideration.

Actually what you said above is not valid either. Paul and the Apostles were not the only ones who could speak in tongues. Others did as well. So unless you're saying that everyone who could speak in tongues at that time did not outlive any of the Apostles it would not make any sense. It would also mean that it was a Gift of the Apostles or they were the catalyst for tongues and not the Holy Spirit, that resides in us now.

Here's another problem with using 1 Corinthians 13:8 in the fashion you are using it in. It would require the rest of verse to also be constrained by the same condition you set for tongues. Do you believe that is really the case concerning prophecies, and knowledge? The tough one really is knowledge. I don't believe this is the case, because of Daniel 12:4. Unless you believe once the Apostles died that it was the time of the end. (Daniel 12:4)

Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Loyal
Sue....If those events are at the same time, which at times they are, why are there so many people that pray the prayer, get the Holy Spirit living inside of them, then continue living like hell? They pray the prayer and live the way they choose instead of living the Word. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs when one is born again, then there is a separate and different event when the Holy Spirit gets all of the person.

Bendito -- you believe in a second blessing of which there is none. Unfortunately there Are times when 'simply praying a prayer' isn't accomplishing anything. Obviously the Holy Spirit is Not indwelling the person because they won't be 'living like hell'. There Are the fruits Of the Holy Spirit which Will be present in a person who Has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. There Will be a positive change in a person. that's why the fruits of the Spirit are given to us to read about in Scripture.

And there Are times when -- during a person's life-- maybe the person has gotten into a rut of sorts with in their spiritual life. Then something happens, maybe hearing a particular sermon, maybe reading a passage of some sort, 'whatever' -- something inside them 'clicks' and they start growing more.

Kind of like kids -- their physical development / growth. A boy will stay the same build for a long time and all of a sudden growth hormones kick-in and they grow straight up several inches or more and seem to change over night. They've Always been alive and growing. But just not noticeable. And then growing starts up again.

So -- how can a person Know they are saved or how do Others 'know' someone is a believer. By their fruits we shall know them. Believers Can be fruit inspectors. Not judgers. Judging would be clucking your tongue about what somebody is doing / 'they should Know better' / more clucking of their tongue At them. But Rather - observing how a person is acting when You know they've made a profession of faith and are Still acting like........... be concerned enough to befriend the person. Taking them aside nicely, quietly and sharing your concerns with them. Maybe you'll get a 'how dare you criticize my actions' or 'and who made You 'god'. And you'll know that something isn't right.

In fact -- a couple of weeks ago -- there was a guy who texted me that he'd been at a meeting and rededicated his life to Christ. I responded back "Wonderful." I was Happy for him. Well - next thing I got was a picture he'd texted me showing a pile of poker chips he'd one. A Big pile. And added that if I gave him $100. he could win big for me, too. Well -- I texted him back -- isn't there something a bit nonBiblical about that? "Well -- apparently he thought I was being a spoil sport." And Then a week or so Later, I saw him at his property that being redone. He was Mad at someone on his phone and was swearing. And after he'd hung up , I was standing there and he was swearing a blue streak about him. he knew I was standing right there. So I asked him if he could Please tone down his language. a Bit. then we both got back in our vehicles and I drove off.

A bit later I texted him again -- asked him to please think about his language simply because he had said he'd rededicated his life to Christ. And asked him what that meant to him.

He told me to STOP quit judging him. Some time later -- he texted me again to apologize for having sworn in front of me. And wished me well with my life. he wasn't apologizing for Swearing , but for being over heard and caught. God has been 'talking' to him lately and he doesn't like being 'talked to'. Not by God or anyone Else.

He feels he's made it Big financially by his own merit. For some years he had been making money -- lots of it fairly easily and quickly. And it went to his head.
 
Loyal
Bendito -- you believe in a second blessing of which there is none. Unfortunately there Are times when 'simply praying a prayer' isn't accomplishing anything. Obviously the Holy Spirit is Not indwelling the person because they won't be 'living like hell'. There Are the fruits Of the Holy Spirit which Will be present in a person who Has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. There Will be a positive change in a person. that's why the fruits of the Spirit are given to us to read about in Scripture.

And there Are times when -- during a person's life-- maybe the person has gotten into a rut of sorts with in their spiritual life. Then something happens, maybe hearing a particular sermon, maybe reading a passage of some sort, 'whatever' -- something inside them 'clicks' and they start growing more.

Kind of like kids -- their physical development / growth. A boy will stay the same build for a long time and all of a sudden growth hormones kick-in and they grow straight up several inches or more and seem to change over night. They've Always been alive and growing. But just not noticeable. And then growing starts up again.

So -- how can a person Know they are saved or how do Others 'know' someone is a believer. By their fruits we shall know them. Believers Can be fruit inspectors. Not judgers. Judging would be clucking your tongue about what somebody is doing / 'they should Know better' / more clucking of their tongue At them. But Rather - observing how a person is acting when You know they've made a profession of faith and are Still acting like........... be concerned enough to befriend the person. Taking them aside nicely, quietly and sharing your concerns with them. Maybe you'll get a 'how dare you criticize my actions' or 'and who made You 'god'. And you'll know that something isn't right.

In fact -- a couple of weeks ago -- there was a guy who texted me that he'd been at a meeting and rededicated his life to Christ. I responded back "Wonderful." I was Happy for him. Well - next thing I got was a picture he'd texted me showing a pile of poker chips he'd one. A Big pile. And added that if I gave him $100. he could win big for me, too. Well -- I texted him back -- isn't there something a bit nonBiblical about that? "Well -- apparently he thought I was being a spoil sport." And Then a week or so Later, I saw him at his property that being redone. He was Mad at someone on his phone and was swearing. And after he'd hung up , I was standing there and he was swearing a blue streak about him. he knew I was standing right there. So I asked him if he could Please tone down his language. a Bit. then we both got back in our vehicles and I drove off.

A bit later I texted him again -- asked him to please think about his language simply because he had said he'd rededicated his life to Christ. And asked him what that meant to him.

He told me to STOP quit judging him. Some time later -- he texted me again to apologize for having sworn in front of me. And wished me well with my life. he wasn't apologizing for Swearing , but for being over heard and caught. God has been 'talking' to him lately and he doesn't like being 'talked to'. Not by God or anyone Else.

He feels he's made it Big financially by his own merit. For some years he had been making money -- lots of it fairly easily and quickly. And it went to his head.
Yeah...Well You can believe all that if you want to.
 
Member
Since I can't mention both members at the same time with multiple quoting of sorts or I dunno where that option is, I will reply to them here.

Well, the thing is, Bendito, that there is NO PROOF that anybody could heal anybody, utter valid prophecies or speak in tongues they hadn't learned the normal way in the last millennium (or earlier) before the late half of the XIX and beginning of the XX centuries, and we all still got to prove that any so called speaking in tongues nowadays and prophecies are real. Or have you forget how many have been faking it in the last century? Back then there was only a bunch of denominations that started selling you the idea that the "most impressive" gifts had returned. So there is what all of us need to take into account before saying stuff as strange as believing that signs like prophesy or speaking in tongues did not cease. Plus, you could not explain why we would need to get the latter via the Holy Spirit if we got many ways nowadays to learn foreign languages! Some people have different family backgrounds allowing them even to start learning two languages since they were toddlers! Again, why would the Spirit rely on something that can be done naturally? The Holy Spirit would just need to remind the believer of what he or she has already learned to spread the Gospel. Besides any of you could not prove that I was wrong concerning the speaking in tongues being just a sign for unbelieving JEWS! This OT prophecy was fulfilled in the times of the Apostles and the first churches in Israel, "Asia" and Europe. If there's no Jew around you and your church, then the Holy Spirit has no reason to make use of that gift.

Acts 2:5-8
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

So yes, there were Jews, their target, the people that listened to them while speaking in tongues. Where are the Jews in the communities where your local churches are located? Are they even standing outside waiting to enter your (mega) churches? Nope, they aren't!

And tell me, how can I or anybody believe in the current version of both gifts, prophecy and speaking in tongues, if the leaders of many of the so called blessed churches with those gifts at hand get their pockets full of money, and purchase or lease expensive cars, limos, helicopters, planes, ships, mansions, mega churches and so on? We can't see any difference between them and the RCC in matters of wealth. When did the Lord and His Apostles live like millionaires and attend luxurious temples besides the Temple in Jerusalem that later on was destroyed by Titus?
 
Loyal
Since I can't mention both members at the same time with multiple quoting of sorts or I dunno where that option is, I will reply to them here.

Well, the thing is, Bendito, that there is NO PROOF that anybody could heal anybody, utter valid prophecies or speak in tongues they hadn't learned the normal way in the last millennium (or earlier) before the late half of the XIX and beginning of the XX centuries, and we all still got to prove that any so called speaking in tongues nowadays and prophecies are real. Or have you forget how many have been faking it in the last century? Back then there was only a bunch of denominations that started selling you the idea that the "most impressive" gifts had returned. So there is what all of us need to take into account before saying stuff as strange as believing that signs like prophesy or speaking in tongues did not cease. Plus, you could not explain why we would need to get the latter via the Holy Spirit if we got many ways nowadays to learn foreign languages! Some people have different family backgrounds allowing them even to start learning two languages since they were toddlers! Again, why would the Spirit rely on something that can be done naturally? The Holy Spirit would just need to remind the believer of what he or she has already learned to spread the Gospel. Besides any of you could not prove that I was wrong concerning the speaking in tongues being just a sign for unbelieving JEWS! This OT prophecy was fulfilled in the times of the Apostles and the first churches in Israel, "Asia" and Europe. If there's no Jew around you and your church, then the Holy Spirit has no reason to make use of that gift.

And tell me, how can I or anybody believe in the current version of both gifts, prophecy and speaking in tongues, if the leaders of many of the so called blessed churches with those gifts at hand get their pockets full of money, and purchase or lease expensive cars, limos, helicopters, planes, ships, mansions, mega churches and so on? We can't see any difference between them and the RCC in matters of wealth. When did the Lord and His Apostles live like millionaires and attend luxurious temples besides the Temple in Jerusalem that later on was destroyed by Titus?
Well you won't have to worry that you might end up ministering healing or prophesy or any of the gifts... Its in believing that you see, and you obviously do not believe the gifts spoken of in the Bible. You want proof.....The WORD is the proof. And you don't believe that WORD
 
Member
Well you won't have to worry that you might end up ministering healing or prophesy or any of the gifts... Its in believing that you see, and you obviously do not believe the gifts spoken of in the Bible. You want proof.....The WORD is the proof. And you don't believe that WORD
Actually you don't believe it by denying that those temporary gifts ceased as the Apostle Paul prophesied long time ago. There's also something he said that you should keep in mind!

1 Corinthians 14:9,19,21,22
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I know you love to mention verses like the 22 to support this gift but you need to connect it to the 21. It was a sign for JEWS! That prophecy was announced to unbelieving Jews. There's no need to speak in tongues if your audience is Gentile.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

This proves the point that it does not help any Gentile to listen to you speaking in tongues, it's better to do what Paul told us in verse 19, to speak few words with our own understanding.
 
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