How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?

[Butch5]

Can someone please tell me why when I click the 'heart' to show that I like what has been said in an entry it doesn't seem to register???

Thank you
Chris

It registered on my post a few minutes ago.

And on this one

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Two main points:

1. All sin is of equal merit in separation from God.
2. Not equal in severity of judgment by God.

As best as I can, I try to deal with my most common sins. Anger is still a large problem for me. I would rather be judged for Anger and the fact I did better than being a rapist, abuser, murderer, etc.

Totally unimportant. If your keep the ENTIRE LAW CONSISTENTLY, but offend in any point, you're Guilty OF ALL. James 2:10. TOTAL PERFECTION is required to be acceptable to God, and THAT is only available BY FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross.

 

[GodB4Us]

Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.

Hello @GodB4Us,

I hope @MedicoBravo will not mind this diversion from the main subject of his thread: but I will now apply myself to these references you have given, and will endeavour to be as brief and concise as possible. I answer them on the basis of the difference of opinion we expressed concerning Luke 16:19-31. You believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story being related by the Lord, whereas I believe that it is a satirical fable, told by our Lord as a means of exposing the hypocritical doctrines of the Pharisees. Yet the verses you have quoted are largely provided with the object of proving what you believe to be true, that the soul exists beyond death, and is either in heaven or occupying a place of eternal conscious punishment, which is traditionally what Hell is considered to be, Yes? OK, let's begin:-

1) 1 Samuel 28:1-20 - the Witch of Endor:-

'And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went,​

and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night:​

and he said, "I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, ​

and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee."'​

( 1Sam. 28:8)​

It is important to note that it is not the familiar spirit that is being brought up, but how the witch was divining by that familiar spirit in order to bring up whose spirit the king was requesting for.

​

'Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee?​

And he said, "Bring me up Samuel."​

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice:​

and the woman spake to Saul, saying,​

"Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul."'​

(1 Sam. 28:11-12)​

* Notice that it was the woman whom we are told 'saw' Samuel, Saul does not see him, she has to tell him what she herself saw. Also how does the woman know the identity of Saul himself? It has to have been communicated to her by means of the 'familiar spirit' that she had (1 Sam. 28:7; Leviticus 19:31). I believe that the woman 'saw' the materialisation of a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as is done by 'mediums' today. She was surprised for she 'cried with a loud voice', obviously receiving more than she expected. What did she see:-

I noticed that it was written that the woman saw Samuel and not a spirit posing as Samuel. I would believe scripture would make that distinction in telling the readers the truth.

'And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou?
And the woman said unto Saul," I saw gods ascending out of the earth."
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said,
"An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle."
And Saul perceived that it was Samuel,
and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.'
(1 Sam. 28:13-14)

* If a spirit, why a mantle? Samuel's spirit was with God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), and if Samuel's body, it would be clothed with 'grave-clothes' (John 11:44). From what Saul heard from the woman, he 'perceived' that it was Samuel, yet he himself did not see what she 'saw'.

Would Samuel be seen naked or by what he is known by? It is perhaps by this perception from the witch that Saul knew and was perceiving Samuel himself also for him to stoop with his face to the ground and bowed himself to the apparition of Samuel.

* The deceiving spirit, masquerading as Samuel, speaks to Saul (obviously through the median-ship of the woman), for Saul's body was dead, including all means of communication or thought, for Samuel had been dead for two years). In 2 Chronicles 18:19-22, Jehovah sent a lying spirit, and gave by it a true message, so this could have been what happened here, but nothing was said that was not well known before.

'And Samuel said to Saul,​

"Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? (from the grave)​

But scripture did not say it was a lying spirit but it was written that very Samuel that said to Saul. If it was a lying spirit, it would say that spirit said to Saul but it did not. It is written that Samuel said to Saul and so I believe it was Samuel.

And Saul answered,​

I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me,​

and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:​

therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do."​

Then said Samuel,​

Wherefore then dost thou ask of me,​

seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?​

And the LORD hath done to him, as He spake by me:​

for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand,​

and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:​

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD,​

nor executedst His fierce wrath upon Amalek,​

therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.​

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines:​

and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: (dead)​

the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.​

(1 Sam. 28:15-19)​

* This took longer than I thought, so I will come back to the rest in another entry.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Note:- Re. Samuel's mantle, the rent and it's significance:-

'And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee:
for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD,
and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
And as Samuel turned about to go away,
he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
And Samuel said unto him,
The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day,
and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent:
for he is not a man, that he should repent.'
(1 Samuel 15:26-29)

I can understand somewhat your reference but the contention is the difference between the two whereas 1 Samuel 15:26-29 was about his rule being given to another hence David, but 1 Samuel 28:15-19 is about when he and his two sons will die and join Samuel where Samuel is at hence Abraham's bosom or Paradise.

This is an informing topic because I had wondered about the fate of King Saul being on the out with God because of his sins, and yet 1 Samuel 28:15-19 answered that nagging question in the back of my mind that King Saul along with his two sons had joined Samuel where he was at which was I believe Abraham's bosom ala Paradise when they had died.

Anyway, the prophesy regarding the death of King Saul and his two sons came true as I believe the scripture that they had joined Samuel in the afterlife.

 

[GodB4Us]

Let me ask you a question. For people to suffer eternally, they need to live eternally, correct? If people will suffer eternally and thus live eternally where does that eternal life come from?

God promised the believer eternal life. He didn't promise the unbeliever eternal life.

If we say man has an immortal soul and will thus live forever, we have two problems. One, why would God promise eternal life to someone who already has eternal life? There isn't much point in that is there? Two, and a much bigger problem for the immortal soul doctrine is that Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 6 that the Father alone has immortality. If the Father alone has immortality then there is no such thing as the immortal soul

That reminds me of a question given by mockers; can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?

So the question is can God speak someone into existence and then make that person cease to exist by the same word? Is that the reason why there is a hell and the lake of fire at the final judgment for even Satan and his fallen angels as that is the furthest place any one can go from all that is good and God wit their sins since sin drives sinners away from the Holy God?

 

[Butch5]

That reminds me of a question given by mockers; can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?

So the question is can God speak someone into existence and then make that person cease to exist by the same word? Is that the reason why there is a hell and the lake of fire at the final judgment for even Satan and his fallen angels as that is the furthest place any one can go from all that is good and God wit their sins since sin drives sinners away from the Holy God?

But you didn't answer the questions. Why would God offer eternal life to one who already has it?

 

[GodB4Us]

Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.

Hello again, @GodB4Us,

I hope the following will take less time and space than reply #52. Let's look at Luke 23:43:-

'And he said unto Jesus,"Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom."
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt Thou be with Me in paradise."'
(Luke 23:42)

The word, 'I say unto thee today ...' is a Hebraism, used for emphasis, it is found numerable times in Scripture, the misplacing of a coma in Luke 23:42, has led to a lot of misunderstanding in regard to what is being said by the Lord here. The Lord Himself would be in the grave for three days and three nights and then teaching His disciples for 40 days, before ascending into heaven. So the words, 'shalt thou be with Me in paradise' could not refer to the day upon which these words were spoken, but to that day when the Lord would Himself be in paradise. Which is yet to come. For I believe the 'paradise' referred to is that found in Revelation 2:7 in the New Jerusalem :-

'He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
( Revelation 2:7)

' In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river,
was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits,
and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'
(Rev 22:2)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I believe scripture did not come with commas and so even if you remove the comma for the sake of argument, what Jesus was saying today in that moment was the thief was going to be with Him in Paradise after he & the Lord dies that day.

'And he said unto Jesus,"Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom."
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt Thou be with Me in paradise."'
(Luke 23:42)

If you reread the request from the thief on the cross about the Lord remembering him when he comes into His kingdom, then the Lord's answer to that thief was to come about that very day.

Also, as a reminder, since His ascension into Heaven was how Jesus brought Paradise and her inhabitants to God to the third Heaven.

 

[GodB4Us]

But you didn't answer the questions. Why would God offer eternal life to one who already has it?

Eternal life with God and all that is good as opposed to be driven away by sins from the Holy God and all that is good for all eternity? I can see the need for salvation here since it is about a ministry of reconciliation.

 

[Butch5]

Eternal life with God and all that is good as opposed to be driven away by sins from the Holy God and all that is good for all eternity? I can see the need for salvation here since it is about a ministry of reconciliation.

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[GodB4Us]

Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (tartaroo)
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'
(1 Peter 3:18-20)

Hello @GodB4Us,

Looking at 1 Peter 3:18-20 (above), yes, Praise God, our Lord was 'quickened by the Spirit', and was taken by the spirit to sound the note of victory to the angels that had sinned in the days of Noah (Jude 1:6). He had vanquished death, and opened up the way for the gift of God to be realised by those sinners who had been saved by His grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. to whom He had promised life through His name. Death had lost it's sting for all such.

Here He is triumphing over these angels that brought about the destruction of the earth by flood, causing mankind to become corrupted genealogically, except for faithful Noah. All of Satan's attempts had failed, Christ was victorious, He had destroyed the works of the Devil.

'And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers,
He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.'
(Col 2:13)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I do not see the sons of God as angels here but the godly lineage of Seth that departed from marrying within the godly lineage to outside to the lineage of Seth since their offspring were still men and why He had shortened their life span to a 120 years than what they were living before as the godly lineage of Seth.

As the case for King Saul who was disobedient but now we know the fate of him and his two sons, so are these sons of God that were sometimes disobedient that were in that prison aka Paradies aka Abraham's bosom where Jesus peached to them in the afterlife so they could believe in Him and be taken by Him to the third heaven when He had ascended.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I apply this to mean no spirit has ascended to Heaven either until Jesus led the way to God.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The above reference to the sons of God before Abraham and the below reference to include the promise to Abraham & the nation of Israel.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

So the holding place has to exist for these souls before Jesus Christ can come and give His life as a ransom for many so He can bring us to God in Heaven and so Abraham's bosom aka Paradies was beneath the earth across the great gulf from hell but after His resurrection and His ascension, Paradise is now located in Heaven as He led the captivity captive into Heaven above.

 

[GodB4Us]

That doesn't answer the question.

Do you not see the difference between eternal life with God and eternal life without God and all that is good? That would be the reason He would offer eternal life as in a "good" eternal life rather than an evil end with that eternal life.

One difference is the bad evil end involves suffering and eternal torment hence the corruptible whereas the good end is the incorruptible and living with God.

 

[GodB4Us]

Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.

'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.'
(2 Cor. 12:1-4)

Hello @GodB4Us,

Next reference, (above):-

Like John, who was taken in Spirit to. 'The Lord's Day', who saw visions related to that period of time, and recorded them according to God's instruction, It would seem that Paul also had a like experience, unless he was referring to John's own experience of course?

Paul was referring to the apostle John and the Book of Revelations without saying so in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 but John was seeing the spirts of those that had died, asking the Lord in Revelation 6:9-11.

* On to the next reference, which is Ephesians 4:7-10:-

'But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:7-10)

Yes, Praise God! Christ Jesus our risen Lord did all of that. He finished the work that His Father sent Him to do.

I see Jesus when He had ascended to Heaven, bringing Paradise and her inhabitants, the captivity captive, to God.

I have now run out of steam, I'm afraid. That's all for now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Butch5]

Do you not see the difference between eternal life with God and eternal life without God and all that is good? That would be the reason He would offer eternal life as in a "good" eternal life rather than an evil end with that eternal life.

I can the difference, but that doesn't answer the question. Why would God offer eternal life to those who already have eternal life?

Can you show me where Scripture promises eternal life to the wocked?

 

[GodB4Us]

I can the difference, but that doesn't answer the question. Why would God offer eternal life to those who already have eternal life?

Can you show me where Scripture promises eternal life to the wocked?

Other than eternal torment? That is more of an eternal judgment on the wicked rather than a good promise, and yet for the good promise to come about, there has to be an eternal judgment on the wicked that it will never cause a separation between us and God ever again.

 

[Butch5]

Other than eternal torment? That is more of an eternal judgment on the wicked rather than a good promise, and yet for the good promise to come about, there has to be an eternal judgment on the wicked that it will never cause a separation between us and God ever again.

You're not answering the questions. Where does Scripture tell us that God gives eternal life to the wicked?

 

[GodB4Us]

You're not answering the questions. Where does Scripture tell us that God gives eternal life to the wicked?

It doesn't so plainly as you seem to be insisting in wanting scripture not to say but you can find the topic of the wicked in eternal torment readily enough as you can with the rapture and the existence of the Triune God..

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now after the resurrection of the left behind saints that were killed going through the great tribulation, which was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later, ask yourself who are these dead that they need to be resurrected for since death and hell, thus including all her inhabitants, will be cast into the lake of fire? And yet death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them before death & hell were cast into the lake of fire.

And yet the dead that were delivered up whose name were not written in the Book of Life, were cast into the lake of fire.

Now imagine that as God giving eternal life to the wicked so they can suffer for all eternity in the lake of fire. Of course, we would not call it eternal life since we associate eternal life as living with God and all that is good with no suffering.

So what would you call this if it wasn't eternal life being given to them upon their resurrection only to suffer corruption by torment in the lake of fire for all eternity?

 

[Butch5]

It doesn't so plainly as you seem to be insisting in wanting scripture not to say but you can find the topic of the wicked in eternal torment readily enough as you can with the rapture and the existence of the Triune God..

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now after the resurrection of the left behind saints that were killed going through the great tribulation, which was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later, ask yourself who are these dead that they need to be resurrected for since death and hell, thus including all her inhabitants, will be cast into the lake of fire? And yet death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them before death & hell were cast into the lake of fire.

And yet the dead that were delivered up whose name were not written in the Book of Life, were cast into the lake of fire.

Now imagine that as God giving eternal life to the wicked so they can suffer for all eternity in the lake of fire. Of course, we would not call it eternal life since we associate eternal life as living with God and all that is good with no suffering.

So what would you call this if it wasn't eternal life being given to them upon their resurrection only to suffer corruption by torment in the lake of fire for all eternity?

The only passage here that "seems" to indicate eternal life for the wicked is Rev. 20:10. However, it only speaks of 3 persons. So, if we accept that the translation is correct (it's not) it would only say that the devil, beast, and false prophet would suffer forever. However, the translation is not correct. The Greek word translated forever is "aion" and it doesn't mean forever. Jesus, Paul, and the rest of thr apostles all speak of the end of the aion. How can there be an end of forever? There can't be. Forever, by definition, doesn't end. The aion does end. Thus it cannot mean forever.

How would I explain what you posted. Everyone dies and is dead. When Jesus returns He raises the believers. That's the first resurrection. They reign 1000 years. After that there is a second resurrection of everyone else. They are then judged and cast into the fire, which is the second death, and die, just like they did thr first time. At the end of this death and hell (the grave) are metaphorically cast into the lake of fire as they will cease to exist.

 

[B-A-C]

The only passage here that "seems" to indicate eternal life for the wicked is Rev. 20:10. However, it only speaks of 3 persons.

Hmmmmm....

Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Hard to go to "eternal punishment" if you don't live eternally.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

tormented with fire and brimstone... torment goes up forever and ever... they have no rest day or night....

forever is... well, forever.

..and you mentioned...

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[B-A-C]

At the end of this death and hell (the grave) are metaphorically cast into the lake of fire as they will cease to exist.

There is no verse that says this is metaphorical. ..and there there is no verse that says you cease to exist.

 

[Butch5]

There is no verse that says this is metaphorical. ..and there there is no verse that says you cease to exist.

It has to be metaphorical. Death is not concrete thing. It can't be touched or held. It's a concept. Therefore it cannot literally be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Likewise with the grave.

Actually there is. Here's one.

Psalm 104:35 (KJV 1900): Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth,
And let the wicked be no more.
Bless thou the Lord, O my soul.
Praise ye the Lord.

To be no more is to cease to exist.

 

[GodB4Us]

The only passage here that "seems" to indicate eternal life for the wicked is Rev. 20:10. However, it only speaks of 3 persons. So, if we accept that the translation is correct (it's not) it would only say that the devil, beast, and false prophet would suffer forever. However, the translation is not correct. The Greek word translated forever is "aion" and it doesn't mean forever. Jesus, Paul, and the rest of thr apostles all speak of the end of the aion. How can there be an end of forever? There can't be. Forever, by definition, doesn't end. The aion does end. Thus it cannot mean forever.

How would I explain what you posted. Everyone dies and is dead. When Jesus returns He raises the believers. That's the first resurrection. They reign 1000 years. After that there is a second resurrection of everyone else. They are then judged and cast into the fire, which is the second death, and die, just like they did thr first time. At the end of this death and hell (the grave) are metaphorically cast into the lake of fire as they will cease to exist.

The Greek word "aion" has to be defined by how it is used in the verse in context.

Strong's Concordance listed forever as one of those definitions.

from the same as aei - aei 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare cronoV - chronos 5550.

You somehow see an end but you have to walk me through that verse to show me how you see an end. Granted that hell and death may actually be thrown in the lake of fire to show sin can never happen again in separating His people from their holy God.

One thing I have noticed throughout the Old Testament that in spite of all the wondrous works that God has done, His people forgot His works and still sinned.

Now I do not know if this is one of the reason for eternal torment but its existence could serve as a reminder to His people that God did render an eternal judgment so that the eternal promise remains equally steadfast and assured. An eternal torment is one way His people can never forget His eternal judgments. If sinners, the devil and his fallen angels, death and hell ceased to exists, then where is God's judgment? Where is His work? Then where is His promise that we would never be separated from Him by sin ever again?