How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?

[Butch5]

In context of the prior verse of the wicked being consumed out of the earth, for where exactly they are no more.

There are scripture about the after life.

If Jesus account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus does not do that for you, then how about Revelation 6:9-11 about those that have been slain whose spirits are asking how long shall they wait; hence the awareness in the afterlife.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. I could go through that with you but it would take some time. Revelation is a book full of symbolism. It depicts Jesus as a lamb having been slain and having 7 eyes. Clearly Jesus didn't look like that. It also portrays death and Hades as riding horses. Clearly not literal. It portrays the city of Babylon as a harlot, again, not literal. So, if it's not literal what does it mean? Notice that they are martyrs and that they are under the alter. We can go into it further if you'd like.

 

[Butch5]

Revelation reference the hell in the afterlife.

The first time is about Jesus having the keys to hell and death.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The significant reference is how hell gave up the dead that were in hell to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Reads to me there is a hell in the afterlife where the spirits of the dead go to.

And then there is this reference about How God is the God of the living as if being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob means they are living in the afterlife even though they are dead among the land of the living as God is the God of them still.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

What if Hell is the grave. How would you read those same passages?

Look again at the passage you posted. "But as touching the Resurrection of the dead". That statement tells us exactly what Jesus is talking about. He's talking about the Resurrection. He didn't say as touching the intermediate state.

Additionally, "The Living" denotes a class of people. It's not saying that they are presently alive. Jesus uses similar language of people who are very much alive and yet He calls them "the dead".

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Lk. 9:59-60 KJV)

Again, here also, "the dead" are a class of people. It doesn't mean they are literally dead.

 

[BloomOne]

Two main points:

1. All sin is of equal merit in separation from God.
2. Not equal in severity of judgment by God.

As best as I can, I try to deal with my most common sins. Anger is still a large problem for me. I would rather be judged for Anger and the fact I did better than being a rapist, abuser, murderer, etc.

Beloved one, don’t be angry.

I understand you are angry and ask,”How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?”

If we reflect to your question, you should consider how you know that God send people to hell who haven’t heard Jesus.

Surely you don’t know that do you. ?

If you don’t know— don’t ask that manner. That manner you asked as if you arr judging God and blaming Him.

Just like asking the Israelites asked wrongly how can God give meat in the dessert ?

Were they not punished ? So beloved one, repent and seek God’s mercy, for you didn’t know what you were saying.

Make peace with God through Jesus Christ.
To God the Father be all glory and thanksgiving through Christ.
Amen.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

God sent nobody to hell, everybody who ends up in there goes willingly and naturally, for broad is the way that leads to destruction.

 

[MedicBravo]

@BloomOne
I'm not angry. I don't blame God who is the Authority b/c I may not agree with what He does.
God wrote Himself on the hearts and on all of Creation. People who deny Him on purpose knowing well that we didn't come from non-life or soup have made a choice.
One can infer that God handles them as well as babies and children differently than the rest of us. They all did not have an Opportunity to Choose and to send these three groups to Hell doesn't fit.

 

[GodB4Us]

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable.

Jesus did not say nor the scripture in the N.T. said it was a parable.

I could go through that with you but it would take some time.

The point of any thing Jesus said is of the Truth, be it a parable or an actual story.

If there was no life after death, do you think the questioning and mocking Jews would let that go? Would they not be laughing at Him for telling that story, especially when referencing a real person like Abraham? That would be grounds for a false witness, would it not? Would they not accuse Him for being a false prophet even?

Revelation is a book full of symbolism. It depicts Jesus as a lamb having been slain and having 7 eyes. Clearly Jesus didn't look like that. It also portrays death and Hades as riding horses. Clearly not literal. It portrays the city of Babylon as a harlot, again, not literal. So, if it's not literal what does it mean? Notice that they are martyrs and that they are under the alter. We can go into it further if you'd like.

John did describe Him among the 7 candlesticks plainly enough

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; <--- if readers stopped here, one would think the voice was from the 7 candlesticks.
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As for your paraphrased description below

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

That is a reference to His omnipresence & His omnipotence in seeing the 7 different kinds of churches that was sent forth into all the earth from the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit of God for why He is sending john to write about them as a warning to believers as well as churches to be ready or else.

 

[GodB4Us]

What if Hell is the grave. How would you read those same passages?

Not every English word hell came from the Greek word Gehenna and so Sheol or Hades can be the place for the dead, meaning their spirits of the dead are there since their literal corpses are not there but in the grave.

What Are Sheol and Hades? <---- there is more at this link other than what is quoted below.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: “There is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [“Sheol,” footnote], where you are going.” Does this mean that Sheol refers to a specific, or individual, grave site where we may have buried a loved one? No. When the Bible refers to a specific burial place, or grave, it uses other Hebrew and Greek words, not sheʼohlʹ and haiʹdes. (Genesis 23:7-9; Matthew 28:1) Also, the Bible does not use the word “Sheol” for a grave where several individuals are buried together, such as a family grave or a mass grave.—Genesis 49:30, 31. ~~~~ End of quote

@complete If you are misapplying Ecclesiastes 9:10 as meaning there is no awareness after death, you should consider that it is only referring to how the spirits of the dead can not do any more planning or gain knowledge or wisdom from the land of the living.

Look again at the passage you posted. "But as touching the Resurrection of the dead". That statement tells us exactly what Jesus is talking about. He's talking about the Resurrection. He didn't say as touching the intermediate state.

He did since it was about the resurrection of the dead by citing God as the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob as the God of the living still and not as the God of the dead.

Additionally, "The Living" denotes a class of people. It's not saying that they are presently alive. Jesus uses similar language of people who are very much alive and yet He calls them "the dead".

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Lk. 9:59-60 KJV)

Again, here also, "the dead" are a class of people. It doesn't mean they are literally dead.

Yet here the dead are the living, a class of living people dead in their sins that would place the cares of this life in favor of putting off following Jesus. One can imagine the rapture event where Christian families are in the process of burying their loved ones and emphasizing the importance of that over leaving their lives behind when the Bridegroom comes. This is where I see His words weighing heavily upon in loving Him more then loved ones to leave them Luke 14:25-35 as I do not see that reference as meaning how every disciple is to live on earth but the cost of discipleship is to be ready to leave everything i.e. the cares of this life, & every one behind on earth for when the Bridegroom comes. Luke 21:33-36 May we pray for the Lord's help on this since He is asking us to pray for His help to be free from the snares of the cares of this life to escape what is coming on the earth via the rapture event.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus did not say nor the scripture in the N.T. said it was a parable.

Correct, but that doesn't mean it's not a parable.

The point of any thing Jesus said is of the Truth, be it a parable or an actual story.

Agreed. But a parable is a story that illustrates a truth. The parable itself isn't the story but rather represents something that is true.

If there was no life after death, do you think the questioning and mocking Jews would let that go? Would they not be laughing at Him for telling that story, especially when referencing a real person like Abraham? That would be grounds for a false witness, would it not? Would they not accuse Him for being a false prophet even?

Consider this, the Sadducees didn't believe in an after life at all. The Pharisees believed in resurrection. If Jesus was talking about people being alive when they were dead this would go against what the Sadducees and Pharisees believed. Wouldn't they then mock Him for teaching such stuff? Wouldn't they accuse Him of teaching pagan doctrines? You see, the belief than man lives on in some form (other than resurrection) after death was a belief among almost all of the pagan religions. The Greeks primarily in Jesus' day held to the teachings of Plato who taught that the "soul" was immortal. He taught that the flesh was fundamentally evil and that man's goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens to the one God or what they called the Pleroma or fullness. Well, that's pretty much what most Christians believe today. They believe what Plato taught. Consider that neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees believed this. That begs the question, why? Here we have the Jews who had God's word for thousands of years. If it taught an afterlife apart from the Resurrection why didn't they know about it? I mean, their prophets heard from God on a regular basis. There was a group of Jews that held to this idea of a disembodied afterlife, they were the Essenes. However, they were mystics and not spoken of in Scripture. Here is an article from the Jewish Encyclopedia that explains some of the beliefs of the Jews.

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

John did describe Him among the 7 candlesticks plainly enough

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; <--- if readers stopped here, one would think the voice was from the 7 candlesticks.
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As for your paraphrased description below

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

That is a reference to His omnipresence & His omnipotence in seeing the 7 different kinds of churches that was sent forth into all the earth from the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit of God for why He is sending john to write about them as a warning to believers as well as churches to be ready or else.

Yes he did. He also described Him as a lamb having been slain. How could He look both ways? As I said, the book is full of symbolism. The symbols represent something, they are not the literal thing. Death riding a horse, how can something that isn't tangible ride a horse? Death isn't even really a thing. It's a word we use to describe the absence of life. How can it ride a horse? Hades, If it's the grave, how can the grave ride a horse? A hole in the ground is not a thing, it's the absence of soil. You can't pick up a hole. How can it ride a horse. If we believe that Hades is a place in the earth were the ghosts of the dead go, how could it ride a horse? it can't. this kind of imagery is all through Revelation. Unless we can firmly establish from Scripture that it's literal, I don't think we can claim it is. But, as I said. we can discuss the symbolism if you'd like. The discussion gets kind of extensive sometimes so I don't just toss it out unless someone is really interested.

 

[GodB4Us]

Correct, but that doesn't mean it's not a parable.

Agreed. But a parable is a story that illustrates a truth. The parable itself isn't the story but rather represents something that is true.

If there was no awareness after death, how would Jesus's account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus be of the truth?

Consider this, the Sadducees didn't believe in an after life at all. The Pharisees believed in resurrection. If Jesus was talking about people being alive when they were dead this would go against what the Sadducees and Pharisees believed. Wouldn't they then mock Him for teaching such stuff?

I believe He was correcting them of their respective assumptions from scripture with scripture.

Wouldn't they accuse Him of teaching pagan doctrines? You see, the belief than man lives on in some form (other than resurrection) after death was a belief among almost all of the pagan religions. The Greeks primarily in Jesus' day held to the teachings of Plato who taught that the "soul" was immortal. He taught that the flesh was fundamentally evil and that man's goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens to the one God or what they called the Pleroma or fullness. Well, that's pretty much what most Christians believe today. They believe what Plato taught. Consider that neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees believed this. That begs the question, why? Here we have the Jews who had God's word for thousands of years. If it taught an afterlife apart from the Resurrection why didn't they know about it? I mean, their prophets heard from God on a regular basis. There was a group of Jews that held to this idea of a disembodied afterlife, they were the Essenes. However, they were mystics and not spoken of in Scripture. Here is an article from the Jewish Encyclopedia that explains some of the beliefs of the Jews.

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

It is expressly taught in scripture when they are aware of the scripture like the warning against seeking counsels from the dead rather than from the Lord per Isaiah 8:19 which King Saul had done prior to Isaiah in 1 Samuel 28:5-20 in seeking the counsel from the spirit of the prophet Samuel because Saul was not getting responses from the Lord for why he had gone and consulted with a medium.

It is sort of like today where the scripture is available but not every one knows everything that is written in scripture and from what they do know, they are at times, misapplying His words thus failing to know the meaning of His words.

Yes he did. He also described Him as a lamb having been slain. How could He look both ways? As I said, the book is full of symbolism. The symbols represent something, they are not the literal thing. Death riding a horse, how can something that isn't tangible ride a horse? Death isn't even really a thing. It's a word we use to describe the absence of life. How can it ride a horse? Hades, If it's the grave, how can the grave ride a horse? A hole in the ground is not a thing, it's the absence of soil. You can't pick up a hole. How can it ride a horse. If we believe that Hades is a place in the earth were the ghosts of the dead go, how could it ride a horse? it can't. this kind of imagery is all through Revelation. Unless we can firmly establish from Scripture that it's literal, I don't think we can claim it is. But, as I said. we can discuss the symbolism if you'd like. The discussion gets kind of extensive sometimes so I don't just toss it out unless someone is really interested.

Symbolism is being used by John to describe what he was seeing and conveying what he is seeing in the best way we can understand it as led by the Spirit of God and so it is by the Spirit of Christ, we have any hope of understanding what is being written in Revelation as the truth, because it is not a Book of Parables as it is about future prophetic events for why Jesus is warning the 7 churches to be ready or else & ended that Book with an invitation in getting ready too.

 

[Butch5]

Not every English word hell came from the Greek word Gehenna and so Sheol or Hades can be the place for the dead, meaning their spirits of the dead are there since their literal corpses are not there but in the grave.

What Are Sheol and Hades? <---- there is more at this link other than what is quoted below.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: “There is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [“Sheol,” footnote], where you are going.” Does this mean that Sheol refers to a specific, or individual, grave site where we may have buried a loved one? No. When the Bible refers to a specific burial place, or grave, it uses other Hebrew and Greek words, not sheʼohlʹ and haiʹdes. (Genesis 23:7-9; Matthew 28:1) Also, the Bible does not use the word “Sheol” for a grave where several individuals are buried together, such as a family grave or a mass grave.—Genesis 49:30, 31. ~~~~ End of quote

But this doesn't answer the question. How would those passages read if Hades is the grave?

We can understand sheol by understanding hades. Around 300-250 BC Jewish Scholars translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. When they came to the word sheol, they translated it hades. We know what hades means. It means the unseen. It is the Greek word that means to see, with the negative article before it. It literally means not seen or unseen. It was used of the dead because they are unseen. The dead were buried in the ground and therefore unseen. Thus it's use for the grave. The dead have gone into the grave, the dead have gone into the unseen. The problem is that many Christians have been taught the mythological teachings on hades. In Greek mythology Hades is the god of the dead. Since the dead are underground he became known as the god of the underworld. From this, the "underworld" took on his name and became known as Hades. The question we have to ask ourselves is this, is the Bible promoting Greek mythology? Was Jesus promoting Greek mythology? I personally don't think so. The Bible tells us plainly that the gods of the pagans are demons. Surely the Bible isn't promoting demons.

@complete If you are misapplying Ecclesiastes 9:10 as meaning there is no awareness after death, you should consider that it is only referring to how the spirits of the dead can not do any more planning or gain knowledge or wisdom from the land of the living.

You're assuming that there are spirits of the dead.

He did since it was about the resurrection of the dead by citing God as the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob as the God of the living still and not as the God of the dead.

Right, but the point is that "the Living" is a class of people. It doesn't indicate whether or not they are presently living, just that there is a group called the living. As I posted, Jesus denotes a group of people called "the Dead". However, those people are not dead. They are very much alive. Also of we look at Luke's account of this event we find these words.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (The Holy Bible: King James Version)

Notice Luke adds the words, "For all live unto him". Jesus is talking from God's perspective. So why would He say that? Because God holds everyone's life in His had. Everyone will be resurrected both the righteous and the evil. So, even though one dies he will ultimately live again. Some will be raised to eternal life and some to destruction.

Yet here the dead are the living, a class of living people dead in their sins that would place the cares of this life in favor of putting off following Jesus. One can imagine the rapture event where Christian families are in the process of burying their loved ones and emphasizing the importance of that over leaving their lives behind when the Bridegroom comes. This is where I see His words weighing heavily upon in loving Him more then loved ones to leave them Luke 14:25-35 as I do not see that reference as meaning how every disciple is to live on earth but the cost of discipleship is to be ready to leave everything i.e. the cares of this life, & every one behind on earth for when the Bridegroom comes. Luke 21:33-36 May we pray for the Lord's help on this since He is asking us to pray for His help to be free from the snares of the cares of this life to escape what is coming on the earth via the rapture event.

OK. But my point is that "the living" doesn't necessarily denote a class of people who are presently alive.

 

[complete]

But this doesn't answer the question. How would those passages read if Hades is the grave?

We can understand sheol by understanding hades. Around 300-250 BC Jewish Scholars translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. When they came to the word sheol, they translated it hades. We know what hades means. It means the unseen. It is the Greek word that means to see, with the negative article before it. It literally means not seen or unseen. It was used of the dead because they are unseen. The dead were buried in the ground and therefore unseen. Thus it's use for the grave. The dead have gone into the grave, the dead have gone into the unseen. The problem is that many Christians have been taught the mythological teachings on hades. In Greek mythology Hades is the god of the dead. Since the dead are underground he became known as the god of the underworld. From this, the "underworld" took on his name and became known as Hades. The question we have to ask ourselves is this, is the Bible promoting Greek mythology? Was Jesus promoting Greek mythology? I personally don't think so. The Bible tells us plainly that the gods of the pagans are demons. Surely the Bible isn't promoting demons.

You're assuming that there are spirits of the dead.

Right, but the point is that "the Living" is a class of people. It doesn't indicate whether or not they are presently living, just that there is a group called the living. As I posted, Jesus denotes a group of people called "the Dead". However, those people are not dead. They are very much alive. Also of we look at Luke's account of this event we find these words.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (The Holy Bible: King James Version)

Notice Luke adds the words, "For all live unto him". Jesus is talking from God's perspective. So why would He say that? Because God holds everyone's life in His had. Everyone will be resurrected both the righteous and the evil. So, even though one dies he will ultimately live again. Some will be raised to eternal life and some to destruction.Butch5

OK. But my point is that "the living" doesn't necessarily denote a class of people who are presently alive.

https://seedandbread.org/download/Additional-Written-Studies/Special-Full-Length-Studies-Sellers/SS18-The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus-1.pdf

Have to go off-line now @Butch5. Thought you may find this of interest.

 

[GodB4Us]

But this doesn't answer the question. How would those passages read if Hades is the grave?

What would be the point of it? I can see the point if considering the sons of God were angels for then it would create problems in the scripture like angels can marry and be given in marriage in spite of what Jesus has said. Then you have to wonder if sons of God were fallen angels then why call them the sons of God? So I can see the point of considering the sons of God as angels to prove angels are not the sons of God and neither are fallen angels, but to consider Hades is the grave when there is equally balanced schools of thought, but wisdom is needed from the Lord to discern the actual meaning in the scripture in regards to finding the truth of that message in the scripture.

We can understand sheol by understanding hades. Around 300-250 BC Jewish Scholars translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. When they came to the word sheol, they translated it hades. We know what hades means. It means the unseen. It is the Greek word that means to see, with the negative article before it. It literally means not seen or unseen. It was used of the dead because they are unseen. The dead were buried in the ground and therefore unseen. Thus it's use for the grave. The dead have gone into the grave, the dead have gone into the unseen. The problem is that many Christians have been taught the mythological teachings on hades. In Greek mythology Hades is the god of the dead. Since the dead are underground he became known as the god of the underworld. From this, the "underworld" took on his name and became known as Hades. The question we have to ask ourselves is this, is the Bible promoting Greek mythology? Was Jesus promoting Greek mythology? I personally don't think so. The Bible tells us plainly that the gods of the pagans are demons. Surely the Bible isn't promoting demons.

This can be another case of the half glass empty or half glass full at looking at the meaning of the verses in regards to the unseen as that can refer to spirits or ghosts.

You're assuming that there are spirits of the dead.

Cannot very well contact the spirits of the dead to get counsel from them which is an abomination to the Lord. Isaiah 8:19

Right, but the point is that "the Living" is a class of people. It doesn't indicate whether or not they are presently living, just that there is a group called the living. As I posted, Jesus denotes a group of people called "the Dead". However, those people are not dead. They are very much alive. Also of we look at Luke's account of this event we find these words.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (The Holy Bible: King James Version)

Notice Luke adds the words, "For all live unto him". Jesus is talking from God's perspective. So why would He say that? Because God holds everyone's life in His had. Everyone will be resurrected both the righteous and the evil. So, even though one dies he will ultimately live again. Some will be raised to eternal life and some to destruction.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Seems that even though at the time Moses had spoken of God being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whom were dead to Moses at the time, yet God identifies Himself as God of those as if they were still living in the afterlife whom will soon be brought to life in the land of the living again..

OK. But my point is that "the living" doesn't necessarily denote a class of people who are presently alive.

I do not see your point when the dead Jesus spoken of were still in the land of the living from what you were referencing.

It will take a miracle from the Lord to get us on the same page, but even then, we may find ourselves as disagreeing with each other still.... or as I assume so far.

 

[Butch5]

If there was no awareness after death, how would Jesus's account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus be of the truth?

It's truth because it's a judgment against the leadership of Israel, primarily the priesthood. He was telling them what was about to happen in AD 70 because they would crucify Him. Take notice to the details in the parable. Notice the Rich man fares sumptuously, is dressed in purple and fine linen, and has five brothers. Why do you suppose Jesus gave these details? If this was about a person's ghost in an afterlife what is the purpose of these details? if this is what happens in an afterlife, why does it matter what the rich man wore or that he had five brothers? Those details would be completely irrelevant. However, if this is a parable about judgment of the priesthood they mean everything. In Israel who fared sumptuously? It was the priesthood. They had the finest of things. Who wore purple and fine linen? The priesthood. Who had five brothers? The priesthood. The priests were of the tribe of Levi. Levi had five brothers. The Pharisees and Scribes would have known this. It's not recorded but they likely perceived that He was speaking of them. They knew they fared sumptuously, that they wore purple and fine linen and that Levi had five brothers. I'll post a more elaborate explanation in a separate post.

I believe He was correcting them of their respective assumptions from scripture with scripture.

Ok. But, we would expect them to loose their minds. If they thought He was teaching pagan doctrines, we would expect them to be mocking Him or accusing Him of false teachings etc. I mean, just before this parable the Pharisees had been ridiculing Jesus. Certainly they would have continued to do so if they thought He was preaching pagan doctrine. When the Pharisees ridiculed Jesus He said these words to them.

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The justified themselves. This is what we find in Malachi. God accuses the priesthood of different things and they essentially try to justify themselves. Then He says, "the law and the prophets were until John". That statement right there speaks of the end of the priesthood. The Old Covenant ended with John the Baptist. Christ is bringing a new covenant. The priesthood is ending, its dying, keep that in mind. Where is the rich man? He's dead in the grave. In 70 AD the priesthood died. Then He says, whoever puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery. Again, this is what the priests were doing and God chastises them for it in Malachi.

14 Yet ye say, Wherefore?
Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth,
Against whom thou hast dealt treacherously:
Yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit.
And wherefore one? That he might seek ta godly seed.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:
For one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts:
Therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. (KJV Mal 2:14–16.)

Consider a few other passages against the priesthood from Malachi.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
And the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,
Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming?
And who shall stand when he appeareth?
For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:
And he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. (KJV Mal 3:1–3)

This is what Jesus did. Malachi is the last time Israel heard from God until Christ came.


And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart,
To give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts,
I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:
Yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed,
And †spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts;
And one shall take you away with it.
4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you,
That my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him of life and peace;
And I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me,
And was afraid before my name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth,
And iniquity was not found in his lips:
He walked with me in peace and equity,
And did turn many away from iniquity.
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge,
And they should seek the law at his mouth:
For he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way;
Ye have caused many to stumble at the law;
Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people,
According as ye have not kept my ways,
But †have been partial in the law. (KJV Mal 2)

Notice He's addressing the priests. Notice He says He will spread dung on their solemn feasts and one will take them a way with it. That is exactly what happened when the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John.

It is expressly taught in scripture when they are aware of the scripture like the warning against seeking counsels from the dead rather than from the Lord per Isaiah 8:19 which King Saul had done prior to Isaiah in 1 Samuel 28:5-20 in seeking the counsel from the spirit of the prophet Samuel because Saul was not getting responses from the Lord for why he had gone and consulted with a medium.

It is sort of like today where the scripture is available but not every one knows everything that is written in scripture and from what they do know, they are at times, misapplying His words thus failing to know the meaning of His words.

In the event with King Saul he went and sought council of a demon. He sought a woman with a familiar spirit. The woman said she saw elohim, gods. She didn't see a spirit or a soul. neither of those words are used in this passage. She says gods. The Bible tells us that the gods of the pagans are demons. Saul was specifically seeking a demon. Are we to believe that Samuel would obey demons? Also, Saul himself said that God would not answer him, not even through prophets. If God isn't answering Saul through prophets, where would Samuel (if he was a ghost) get his message? It wasn't from God because God was not answering Saul.

Symbolism is being used by John to describe what he was seeing and conveying what he is seeing in the best way we can understand it as led by the Spirit of God and so it is by the Spirit of Christ, we have any hope of understanding what is being written in Revelation as the truth, because it is not a Book of Parables as it is about future prophetic events for why Jesus is warning the 7 churches to be ready or else & ended that Book with an invitation in getting ready too.

Ok. Since it's symbolism, can you explain what the book is saying?

 

[Butch5]

What would be the point of it? I can see the point if considering the sons of God were angels for then it would create problems in the scripture like angels can marry and be given in marriage in spite of what Jesus has said. Then you have to wonder if sons of God were fallen angels then why call them the sons of God? So I can see the point of considering the sons of God as angels to prove angels are not the sons of God and neither are fallen angels, but to consider Hades is the grave when there is equally balanced schools of thought, but wisdom is needed from the Lord to discern the actual meaning in the scripture in regards to finding the truth of that message in the scripture.

The point is to show that those same passages can be understood as the grave. Since they can be understood as the grave were are "not" required to understand them as a place where ghosts go. Unless we can show a "teaching" in Scripture that "teaches" that we have ghosts and those ghosts go to a place somewhere in the earth we are simply imposing a foreign idea on the text.

This can be another case of the half glass empty or half glass full at looking at the meaning of the verses in regards to the unseen as that can refer to spirits or ghosts.

Again, as above, unless we can find "teaching" that tells us people have ghosts and those ghosts go to some place in the earth at death we are simply imposing our beliefs onto the text. This idea that people have a ghost that lives on after death was popular among most, if not all, of the pagan religions and was foreign to Israel (with the exception of the Essenes). Are we to believe that all of the people who had no contact with God had the correct understanding and that people who heard directly from God had it all wrong? I find that rather hard to believe.

Cannot very well contact the spirits of the dead to get counsel from them which is an abomination to the Lord. Isaiah 8:19

Just because people believe it's possible to talk to the dead doesn't mean it is.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Seems that even though at the time Moses had spoken of God being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whom were dead to Moses at the time, yet God identifies Himself as God of those as if they were still living in the afterlife whom will soon be brought to life in the land of the living again..

I do not see your point when the dead Jesus spoken of were still in the land of the living from what you were referencing.

It will take a miracle from the Lord to get us on the same page, but even then, we may find ourselves as disagreeing with each other still.... or as I assume so far.

My point is that "the living" is a class of people. The Greek text doesn't place a time frame on when these people are living, only that they belong to a class called the living. Jesus states explicitly that He's talking about the Resurrection. In the Resurrection, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will be living.

The reason we're not on the same page is because we approach the Scriptures with different sets of presuppositions. You approach the Scriptures from a Dualist position, that being that man is capable of living apart from the body. I on the other hand come from a Monist position, that being that man is a single entity and cannot live apart from the body. This difference causes us to interpret the Scriptures in different ways. For instance, death. From my position it simply means to die. However, because you come from a dualist position you're forced to interpret death as something that happens to the body but not the spirit.. The question we have to ask is, which of these views does the Bible actually "teach", not which can we impose on the text. If we believe that Hades is a place where the ghosts of dead people go when they die, we can find passages of Scripture that seem to fit with that. But, that doesn't mean that's what the Bible is actually teaching. Here's the problem with that idea. If we look at all of the passages of Scripture that use the word Hades and insert the idea of a place in the earth where ghosts go, we may be able to make it work in some passages. However, there are a lot passages where it simply will not work. On the hand, if we did the same and translated Hades as the grave, it works in all of the passages. This tells us that the grave is the proper meaning of Hades and not the idea of a place where ghosts go.

 

[GodB4Us]

It's truth because it's a judgment against the leadership of Israel, primarily the priesthood. He was telling them what was about to happen in AD 70 because they would crucify Him. Take notice to the details in the parable. Notice the Rich man fares sumptuously, is dressed in purple and fine linen, and has five brothers. Why do you suppose Jesus gave these details? If this was about a person's ghost in an afterlife what is the purpose of these details? if this is what happens in an afterlife, why does it matter what the rich man wore or that he had five brothers? Those details would be completely irrelevant. However, if this is a parable about judgment of the priesthood they mean everything. In Israel who fared sumptuously? It was the priesthood. They had the finest of things. Who wore purple and fine linen? The priesthood. Who had five brothers? The priesthood. The priests were of the tribe of Levi. Levi had five brothers. The Pharisees and Scribes would have known this. It's not recorded but they likely perceived that He was speaking of them. They knew they fared sumptuously, that they wore purple and fine linen and that Levi had five brothers. I'll post a more elaborate explanation in a separate post.

Ok. But, we would expect them to loose their minds. If they thought He was teaching pagan doctrines, we would expect them to be mocking Him or accusing Him of false teachings etc. I mean, just before this parable the Pharisees had been ridiculing Jesus. Certainly they would have continued to do so if they thought He was preaching pagan doctrine. When the Pharisees ridiculed Jesus He said these words to them.

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The justified themselves. This is what we find in Malachi. God accuses the priesthood of different things and they essentially try to justify themselves. Then He says, "the law and the prophets were until John". That statement right there speaks of the end of the priesthood. The Old Covenant ended with John the Baptist. Christ is bringing a new covenant. The priesthood is ending, its dying, keep that in mind. Where is the rich man? He's dead in the grave. In 70 AD the priesthood died. Then He says, whoever puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery. Again, this is what the priests were doing and God chastises them for it in Malachi.

14 Yet ye say, Wherefore?
Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth,
Against whom thou hast dealt treacherously:
Yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit.
And wherefore one? That he might seek ta godly seed.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:
For one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts:
Therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. (KJV Mal 2:14–16.)

Consider a few other passages against the priesthood from Malachi.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
And the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,
Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming?
And who shall stand when he appeareth?
For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:
And he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. (KJV Mal 3:1–3)

This is what Jesus did. Malachi is the last time Israel heard from God until Christ came.


And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart,
To give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts,
I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:
Yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed,
And †spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts;
And one shall take you away with it.
4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you,
That my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him of life and peace;
And I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me,
And was afraid before my name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth,
And iniquity was not found in his lips:
He walked with me in peace and equity,
And did turn many away from iniquity.
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge,
And they should seek the law at his mouth:
For he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way;
Ye have caused many to stumble at the law;
Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people,
According as ye have not kept my ways,
But †have been partial in the law. (KJV Mal 2)

Notice He's addressing the priests. Notice He says He will spread dung on their solemn feasts and one will take them a way with it. That is exactly what happened when the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John.

Okay. Let's say He is addressing the priests that were justifying themselves, what is His message to them from the rich man and the beggar Lazarus?

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Is this Him telling them how much in sin they were that would continually refuse to believe in Him even after His resurrection that they would not believe even one of their own as if risen from the dead to warn of the hell in the afterlife?

That was the whole point of the rich man's request which was to warn his brothers of the hell in the afterlife in the hope of causing them to repent.

In the event with King Saul he went and sought council of a demon. He sought a woman with a familiar spirit. The woman said she saw elohim, gods. She didn't see a spirit or a soul. neither of those words are used in this passage. She says gods. The Bible tells us that the gods of the pagans are demons. Saul was specifically seeking a demon. Are we to believe that Samuel would obey demons? Also, Saul himself said that God would not answer him, not even through prophets. If God isn't answering Saul through prophets, where would Samuel (if he was a ghost) get his message? It wasn't from God because God was not answering Saul.

Yet the prophesy from what scripture was written that this Samuel had spoken of unto King Saul did come true. If it wasn't Samuel, why would scripture testify that it was Samuel that had spoken unto King Saul? Why not have it written as that familiar spirit or that demon that has spoken unto him? Thus I am led to believe this was the actual spirit of Samuel that had spoken otherwise the scripture is bearing a false witness which I believe it is not.

Ok. Since it's symbolism, can you explain what the book is saying?

Only by His grace & by His help. Jesus is warning the 7 churches to be ready or else be left behind at the rapture event to face the fire coming on the third of the earth which will bring about the New World Order and the mark of the beast system to buy & sell to survive for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world. Then Jesus is speaking of future kingdom on earth for when Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before he is released for a last rebellion before the Great White Throne Judgment comes when everything will be put down finally with death & hell in the lake of fire with Satan & his fallen angels., & those with the mark of the beast, & the rest of the dead whose names are not in the Book of Life.

Kind of like going to the end of the mystery novel in finding out the butler did it sort of thing only we get to see the end result of Jesus finishing the kingdom of Heaven before giving it up to the Father in the end. Paul touched on this also.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Book of Revelation is a detailed overall view of the finishing of the kingdom of heaven as 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is a shorter summary of what is going on and finally the shortest one of all is this parable of the meaning of this life.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The 3 measures are they that be Christ's the firstfruits at the rapture event, then they that be Christ's at His coming after the great tribulation, then those remaining loyal to Him after Satan is released from the pit at the end of 1000 years. This is what makes the whole of the kingdom of Heaven as there are 3 harvests as in 3 measures of leaven that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven before Jesus gives that kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

 

[GodB4Us]

The point is to show that those same passages can be understood as the grave. Since they can be understood as the grave were are "not" required to understand them as a place where ghosts go. Unless we can show a "teaching" in Scripture that "teaches" that we have ghosts and those ghosts go to a place somewhere in the earth we are simply imposing a foreign idea on the text.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There is precedent in scripture for the after life.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Again, as above, unless we can find "teaching" that tells us people have ghosts and those ghosts go to some place in the earth at death we are simply imposing our beliefs onto the text. This idea that people have a ghost that lives on after death was popular among most, if not all, of the pagan religions and was foreign to Israel (with the exception of the Essenes). Are we to believe that all of the people who had no contact with God had the correct understanding and that people who heard directly from God had it all wrong? I find that rather hard to believe.

Not all believers believe the existence of the Triune God even though there are scriptures that testify to this truth. So you can have different groups of Jews believing in a different way from the other by the misapplication of scripture or not knowing the scripture as well as they think they do.

Jesus has said it for why not every one that avails themselves to scripture, know the scriptures.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Just because people believe it's possible to talk to the dead doesn't mean it is.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

I fail to see why God would have Isaiah to speak against it as if they can, in order to warn people to seek God instead. Otherwise would not God had Isaiah say there is no speaking unto the dead; those that claim they do, deceives you? But instead, we are to seek counsel from the Lord rather than from the departed.

My point is that "the living" is a class of people. The Greek text doesn't place a time frame on when these people are living, only that they belong to a class called the living. Jesus states explicitly that He's talking about the Resurrection. In the Resurrection, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will be living.

I see that as they are living spirits that will soon be resurrected for why God is still the God of them.

The reason we're not on the same page is because we approach the Scriptures with different sets of presuppositions. You approach the Scriptures from a Dualist position, that being that man is capable of living apart from the body. I on the other hand come from a Monist position, that being that man is a single entity and cannot live apart from the body. This difference causes us to interpret the Scriptures in different ways. For instance, death. From my position it simply means to die. However, because you come from a dualist position you're forced to interpret death as something that happens to the body but not the spirit.. The question we have to ask is, which of these views does the Bible actually "teach", not which can we impose on the text. If we believe that Hades is a place where the ghosts of dead people go when they die, we can find passages of Scripture that seem to fit with that. But, that doesn't mean that's what the Bible is actually teaching. Here's the problem with that idea. If we look at all of the passages of Scripture that use the word Hades and insert the idea of a place in the earth where ghosts go, we may be able to make it work in some passages. However, there are a lot passages where it simply will not work. On the hand, if we did the same and translated Hades as the grave, it works in all of the passages. This tells us that the grave is the proper meaning of Hades and not the idea of a place where ghosts go.

I agree that we are not on the same page.

I do not see the following reference as symbolism but an actual event where those that have died are asking the Lord how long must they wait under the altar and the answer was until those marked to be killed should join them. Reads to me as the afterlife exists here to me.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thanks for sharing, but I reckon we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Butch5]

Okay. Let's say He is addressing the priests that were justifying themselves, what is His message to them from the rich man and the beggar Lazarus?

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Is this Him telling them how much in sin they were that would continually refuse to believe in Him even after His resurrection that they would not believe even one of their own as if risen from the dead to warn of the hell in the afterlife?

That was the whole point of the rich man's request which was to warn his brothers of the hell in the afterlife in the hope of causing them to repent.

His point to them in the parable is that judgment is coming. The priesthood is about to be destroyed it's about to die. The rich man represents the priesthood. Lazarus represents Jesus. He's telling them that the priesthood is about to die and that they will suffer God's wrath. The rich man was in hades suffering in the flame. There is only one other place in Scripture where Hades is associated with burning. The place of burning is Gehenna, not Hades. So, why did Jesus say the rich man was in Hades and not Gehenna? He was pointing them to Deuteronomy 32. In Deuteronomy 32 we have the song of Moses. It's a song written about how in the future Israel would turn away from God and how He would bring His judgment upon them.

And he said, I will hide my face from them,
I will see what their end shall be:
For they are a very froward generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And ||shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (KJV Dt 32:20–22)

God said a fire is kindled in His anger that will burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is foretelling a future judgement against Israel. We know it was in Jesus' day because Paul quotes from this and applies it to his day. It speaks of a fire which is God's anger and it shall burn to the lowest Hades. The rich man is the priesthood who this prophecy is about. They are in the flame in Hades which is God's anger. Look at Lazarus. He was beggar. Jesus was poor. Lazarus was covered with sores. At the cross Jesus was covered with sores from the lashings. The parable says that the dogs licked Jesus' sores. The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. The Jews rejected Jesus, but the dogs, the Gentiles received him. In the parable the rich man rejects Lazarus but the dogs receive him. Lazarus was carried away by angels. Jesus was carried away by angels. In the Gospels it says Jesus was taken up into Heaven. The angels, at the tomb, said He would return in like manner. We're told that when He returns He will be accompanied by angels, thus it seems He left with angels.

So, we have the priesthood, who died and is in Hades, the grave and is suffering God's wrath. On the other had we have Jesus who was treated badly and rejected by the priesthood who is taken to Abraham's bosom. We see Abraham embracing Lazarus while the rich man, priesthood, is suffering God's wrath. Now consider that God had made some promises to Abraham. He told him that he inherit the land, him and his seed and that through him all nations would be blessed, . The Jews believed they were the heirs being the seed of Abraham. However, Paul tells us that they weren't the intended heirs or the promised seed. He tells us that Christ is the promised seed.

And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Gen. 21:12 KJV)

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

What we see in this parable is Jesus the long awaited seed being embraced by Abraham. Remember, Jesus had told the Jews that they would see people coming from the east and the west sitting down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but the children of the kingdom, the Jews, would be cast out. That's what we see in this parable. Jesus is embraced by Abraham, while the Jews, Priesthood, are cast out.

Yet the prophesy from what scripture was written that this Samuel had spoken of unto King Saul did come true. If it wasn't Samuel, why would scripture testify that it was Samuel that had spoken unto King Saul? Why not have it written as that familiar spirit or that demon that has spoken unto him? Thus I am led to believe this was the actual spirit of Samuel that had spoken otherwise the scripture is bearing a false witness which I believe it is not.

Actually, it didn't come true. It was at least two or more days before Saul died.

Because it's written from the perspective of those who were there. Remember, the book is a historical record of what happened. From their perspective they thought they were speaking with Samuel . However, that was their perception and not necessarily fact. However, this is not unusual in Scripture. Consider this.

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (Gen. 18:1-3 KJV)

In this passage it says Abraham saw three men. The narrative goes on to say that it was the Lord and two angels. Was the pre-incarnate Christ a man? Were the angels men? Moses is writing this. He knows the men are the Lord and two angels and yet he calls them men. The narrative continues as the two angels go to Sodom. There lot sees them and invites them to his house. Then the men of the city call for Lot to send out the "men" that came to him. The "men' then smote the men of the city with blindness. Then they tell Lot that the Lord has sent them to destroy Sodom. The point is that this was the Lord and two angels and yet Moses calls them men and they are also called men in the text itself. It's written from the perspective of the people.

Only by His grace & by His help. Jesus is warning the 7 churches to be ready or else be left behind at the rapture event to face the fire coming on the third of the earth which will bring about the New World Order and the mark of the beast system to buy & sell to survive for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world. Then Jesus is speaking of future kingdom on earth for when Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before he is released for a last rebellion before the Great White Throne Judgment comes when everything will be put down finally with death & hell in the lake of fire with Satan & his fallen angels., & those with the mark of the beast, & the rest of the dead whose names are not in the Book of Life.

Kind of like going to the end of the mystery novel in finding out the butler did it sort of thing only we get to see the end result of Jesus finishing the kingdom of Heaven before giving it up to the Father in the end. Paul touched on this also.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Book of Revelation is a detailed overall view of the finishing of the kingdom of heaven as 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is a shorter summary of what is going on and finally the shortest one of all is this parable of the meaning of this life.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The 3 measures are they that be Christ's the firstfruits at the rapture event, then they that be Christ's at His coming after the great tribulation, then those remaining loyal to Him after Satan is released from the pit at the end of 1000 years. This is what makes the whole of the kingdom of Heaven as there are 3 harvests as in 3 measures of leaven that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven before Jesus gives that kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

Ok. But what is all of the symbolism? Can you explain what all of the symbols mean?

 

[GodB4Us]

His point to them in the parable is that judgment is coming.

In the parable, judgment has been given. So that could not have been the point. I believe the point was the rich man's request to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers but Jesus said that if they do not believe the scripture, neither would they believe the words from one risen from the dead. So for that point to be driven home is that there are spirits burning in hell for why the rich man wanted his brothers to be warned in order to repent to avoid going there in the afterlife.

The priesthood is about to be destroyed it's about to die. The rich man represents the priesthood. Lazarus represents Jesus.

I really think that is stretching it overmuch. After Jesus's resurrection and ascension, the Temple was not destroyed until 70 A.D. and the prophesy is a third Temple will be built from which the priesthood would continue until halfway through the great tribulation when the son of perdition reveals himself stepping into the Holy of holies in declaring himself to be god. So, no. I do not believe the rich man represents the priesthood nor Lazarus to represent Jesus. And I believe Abraham is Abraham for why it cannot be seen as a parable but a true story.

He's telling them that the priesthood is about to die and that they will suffer God's wrath. The rich man was in hades suffering in the flame. There is only one other place in Scripture where Hades is associated with burning. The place of burning is Gehenna, not Hades.

Jesus referred to the after life for where the rich man was being in hell and torment, desiring water to dip onto his tongue for relief from the heat. Gehenna is where corpse burn and so hardly living in that burning.

So, why did Jesus say the rich man was in Hades and not Gehenna? He was pointing them to Deuteronomy 32.

Seriously doubt it.

Actually, it didn't come true. It was at least two or more days before Saul died.

But Saul did die along with his two sons and they had joined Samuel where he was in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise. They certainly did not join him at Samuel's grave site.

Because it's written from the perspective of those who were there. Remember, the book is a historical record of what happened. From their perspective they thought they were speaking with Samuel . However, that was their perception and not necessarily fact. However, this is not unusual in Scripture. Consider this.

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (Gen. 18:1-3 KJV)

In this passage it says Abraham saw three men. The narrative goes on to say that it was the Lord and two angels. Was the pre-incarnate Christ a man? Were the angels men? Moses is writing this. He knows the men are the Lord and two angels and yet he calls them men. The narrative continues as the two angels go to Sodom. There lot sees them and invites them to his house. Then the men of the city call for Lot to send out the "men" that came to him. The "men' then smote the men of the city with blindness. Then they tell Lot that the Lord has sent them to destroy Sodom. The point is that this was the Lord and two angels and yet Moses calls them men and they are also called men in the text itself. It's written from the perspective of the people.

Man was created in the image and likeness of God for why Abraham would see the Lord & those 2 angels as 3 men. Genesis 1:26-27

Plus, Jesus was the God men had seen in the Old Testament before His incarnation as the Son of man to give His life as a ransom for many. Jacob wrestled with a "man" Whom he testified was the Lord that he had seen face to face.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

More on the topic at this link ---> Jesus The God That Men Had Seen In The O.T.

Ok. But what is all of the symbolism? Can you explain what all of the symbols mean?

Everything in Revelation? No. I know enough though and still open to learn more, but as it is, I do not know who the beast is or what it is. A former submarine commander turned one world church and government leader? Time will tell, but I hope in Him that He has me up in Heaven at the rapture event to escape all that is coming on the earth..

 

[Butch5]

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There is precedent in scripture for the after life.

It doesn't. The word translated spirit is breath. It's the breath of life that returns to God when a person dies. The breath of life which is something of God and not man returns to Him and the man, the body, returns to the dust.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If we look at this passage in the broader context we see that Paul is talking about the Resurrection. notice earlier in the chapter he talks about mortality putting on immortality. That's the Resurrection. Also, in this passage, the Greek words absent an present mean to be present with or absent from one's own people. Who were Paul's people? The church. What is another name for the church? The body of Christ. Paul is saying he's willing to absent from the church and present with the Lord. However, that doesn't mean it's instantaneous. The dead know nothing, so they have no consciousness in death. So for them one second they are alive here, the next thing they know is the Resurrection. So, it would seem instantaneous to them even though it's not in actual time.

Not all believers believe the existence of the Triune God even though there are scriptures that testify to this truth. So you can have different groups of Jews believing in a different way from the other by the misapplication of scripture or not knowing the scripture as well as they think they do.

Jesus has said it for why not every one that avails themselves to scripture, know the scriptures.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

But that's not the point. There is nothing in the Scriptures that "teaches" that man is a being that has a ghost that lives on after death. There's nothing. People come to the Bible already believing that and then find passages that they think support it. Moses gives us the creation of man. All we see is the man, the body, created from the earth and the breath of God. These two combined to form a living soul There is nothing that speaks of a spirit that is man, nothing.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

I fail to see why God would have Isaiah to speak against it as if they can, in order to warn people to seek God instead. Otherwise would not God had Isaiah say there is no speaking unto the dead; those that claim they do, deceives you? But instead, we are to seek counsel from the Lord rather than from the departed.

Because when they do that there are seeking demons. That's why God told them not to do that.

I see that as they are living spirits that will soon be resurrected for why God is still the God of them.

You see it that way but the Scriptures don't allow for that understanding

I agree that we are not on the same page.

I do not see the following reference as symbolism but an actual event where those that have died are asking the Lord how long must they wait under the altar and the answer was until those marked to be killed should join them. Reads to me as the afterlife exists here to me.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thanks for sharing, but I reckon we will have to agree to disagree.

You're welcome, same to you. As I said previously, we come with different presuppositions. I don't believe you've established yours. If man is a spirit that can live apart from the body we should find such teaching in Scripture. However, we don't. We actually find the opposite. This is the reason we're so far apart. We can post passages all day and not make any headway. The main issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not man is a spirit that can live apart from the body.

 

[Butch5]

In the parable, judgment has been given. So that could not have been the point. I believe the point was the rich man's request to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers but Jesus said that if they do not believe the scripture, neither would they believe the words from one risen from the dead. So for that point to be driven home is that there are spirits burning in hell for why the rich man wanted his brothers to be warned in order to repent to avoid going there in the afterlife.

How is it that you have the rich man being judged before judgment day? Does the parable teach that rich people go to hell to be tormented? Nothing in the parable says the rich man was wicked or a sinner. Do poor people get saved? Nothing in the parable says that Lazarus was a righteous man or that he was saved. It just tells us he was poor. What in this parable tells you that the rich man deserved to be tormented in hell and that the Lazarus didn't? Why did Abraham say the rich man's brothers had Moses and the Prophets? Why didn't he say they have to believe the Gospel? There is nothing in this passage that indicates hell except for a faulty translation of the word Hades.

I really think that is stretching it overmuch. After Jesus's resurrection and ascension, the Temple was not destroyed until 70 A.D. and the prophesy is a third Temple will be built from which the priesthood would continue until halfway through the great tribulation when the son of perdition reveals himself stepping into the Holy of holies in declaring himself to be god. So, no. I do not believe the rich man represents the priesthood nor Lazarus to represent Jesus. And I believe Abraham is Abraham for why it cannot be seen as a parable but a true story.

It simple. It's not possible that it's a real story. The people in it are dead. Dead people cannot speak, move, or do anything. It can only be claimed to be a true story if one brings to it the Dualism of Greek philosophy. The Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts perish the day they die. We find that the dead cannot praise God. How exactly can Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man be conversing in Hades when the dead know nothing and have no thoughts?

Again, this goes back to the unproved premise of your argument. That being that man can live apart from the body. You've not established that from Scripture. Unless you can establish it I have to understand it as conjecture.

Jesus referred to the after life for where the rich man was being in hell and torment, desiring water to dip onto his tongue for relief from the heat. Gehenna is where corpse burn and so hardly living in that burning.

As I pointed out. The only place in Scripture that speaks of burning in Hades is speaking of God anger burning in hades. It's not a literal fire. Thus, the rich man was not suffering literal fire. Jesus indicates that the wicked who are to be burned and suffer torment will be cast into Gehenna

Seriously doubt it.

You're free to doubt it. However, as I pointed out they are the only to places in Scripture that mention fire in Hades.

But Saul did die along with his two sons and they had joined Samuel where he was in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise. They certainly did not join him at Samuel's grave site.

They did, but they didn't die the next day. Samuel wasn't in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom isn't a location, it's a man's chest. it's mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Did Sarah send her maid down into the center of the earth with the dead? If so how did she conceive? No, we can see from this passage that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in a close relationship with Abraham. Which where we see Lazarus. Again, we see this idea elsewhere in Scripture.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Jn. 13:23 KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

It simply means to be in a close relationship with someone. Likewise there is not place in Hades called Paradise. The Greek word Paradeisos means garden. Where does Scripture tell us there is a garden in Hades? I've looked into this word Paradeisos and I've not seen anything about a garden in Hades.

y

Man was created in the image and likeness of God for why Abraham would see the Lord & those 2 angels as 3 men. Genesis 1:26-27

Plus, Jesus was the God men had seen in the Old Testament before His incarnation as the Son of man to give His life as a ransom for many. Jacob wrestled with a "man" Whom he testified was the Lord that he had seen face to face.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

More on the topic at this link ---> Jesus The God That Men Had Seen In The O.T.

That's the point. Was Jesus a man then? He wasn't. John tells us that the word became flesh. That was at the incarnation. The point is that the Bible calls the Lord and angels men when they aren't men. So, for the writers who were recording the events of Saul's kingship to call the unfamiliar spirit Samuel when Saul believed he was speaking with Samuel is not unordinary.

Everything in Revelation? No. I know enough though and still open to learn more, but as it is, I do not know who the beast is or what it is. A former submarine commander turned one world church and government leader? Time will tell, but I hope in Him that He has me up in Heaven at the rapture event to escape all that is coming on the earth..

Well, see. The rapture occurs when Christ returns. Mathew 24.