PloughBoy
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I like those too, strongs, young’s, Englishmen Greek & Hebrew. Concordances.Although I haven’t used them in years, I really like them.
How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?
- Thread starter MedicBravo
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Jesus_is_LORD
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Greetings @MedicBravo , @Lavenderfields , @complete , @PloughBoy ,
joining this discussion. I'll admit I have not read all the post yet. But I did skim
and I saw the original post related to how can Jesus send people to hell who never heard about him.
This question reminds me of when people ask, what about people who lived before Jesus lived, will they go to hell?
This is how I answer this question.
(1) First let us go back to the beginning and remember that God was with humanity in the very beginning (Adam and Eve)
The first humans knew of God. Why didn't Adam and Eve have Jesus to witness to them? Well they didn't need Jesus,
the Son of Mary and Joseph because they were with God and knew God and walked with God.
After the were banished from the garden, the knowledge of God didn't simply disappear from the earth. Adam and Eve
told their children Cain and Abel about God, as we see Cain and Abel sacrificing to God. We also see others who
would follow would pass this knowledge of God, and the people had the opportunity to know God.
During Noah's days he preached about repentance, and when the world was destroyed in the flood.
"When the people would not repent, the Lord told Noah, "Behold, I . . . do bring a flood of waters upon the earth,
to destroy all flesh." (Gen. 6:17.)
After the flood , the only one's left were Noah and his family, they knew about God, and the world started
again with them telling their children about God after the flood.
When we get to Abraham, how are we told he was justified. We are told that He was justified by faith.
Romans 4:3 states "Abraham believed[faith] God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
This faith of Abraham led Him to walk with God in obedience and repentance of doing what displeased God.
So we see that people way before Jesus knew of God and they had the choice to believe God and put their faith in Him.
God also sent many prophets in the land and whatever they preached was the WORD of GOD. And those who believed,
would have faith, because faith comes by hearing the WORD of God.
When Jesus came, He came and finished this work of faith, giving the substance of our faith actual content and power
to defeat death in the cross. Jesus came and paid the price so that all who had believed in the
WORD of GOD, whether from the prophet of God or from God from heaven, would be saved. This work of Jesus transcended time,
because even though he died in time, this saving work was completed in eternity passed.
Which is why Revelation 13:8 speaks of the "... the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world."
It is like I tell everyone on TJ I'm starting a company buy a stock. Everyone starts giving me money
to buy this stock for a company that has not yet started in anticipation (faith) of the profits. I give them
all certificates of stock, and then next year I actually create the company and actually make money and then
give them the profits. Similarly, those who lived before Jesus had an opportunity to hold unto the promise
through believing the WORD of God (Jesus is the WORD of God), but this WORD came through the prophets
or through general revelation (creation).
SO while there are some who lived and may have never heard the name Jesus Christ, there is none
who lived to a reasonable age of having conscious who did not have an encounter with JESUS the WORD
of God, whether through the prophets, general revelation of creation, or the gospel.
So indeed the scriptures do not lie when it states,
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - Romans 1:20.
Jump in as well @God's Truth
joining this discussion. I'll admit I have not read all the post yet. But I did skim
and I saw the original post related to how can Jesus send people to hell who never heard about him.
This question reminds me of when people ask, what about people who lived before Jesus lived, will they go to hell?
This is how I answer this question.
(1) First let us go back to the beginning and remember that God was with humanity in the very beginning (Adam and Eve)
The first humans knew of God. Why didn't Adam and Eve have Jesus to witness to them? Well they didn't need Jesus,
the Son of Mary and Joseph because they were with God and knew God and walked with God.
After the were banished from the garden, the knowledge of God didn't simply disappear from the earth. Adam and Eve
told their children Cain and Abel about God, as we see Cain and Abel sacrificing to God. We also see others who
would follow would pass this knowledge of God, and the people had the opportunity to know God.
During Noah's days he preached about repentance, and when the world was destroyed in the flood.
"When the people would not repent, the Lord told Noah, "Behold, I . . . do bring a flood of waters upon the earth,
to destroy all flesh." (Gen. 6:17.)
After the flood , the only one's left were Noah and his family, they knew about God, and the world started
again with them telling their children about God after the flood.
When we get to Abraham, how are we told he was justified. We are told that He was justified by faith.
Romans 4:3 states "Abraham believed[faith] God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
This faith of Abraham led Him to walk with God in obedience and repentance of doing what displeased God.
So we see that people way before Jesus knew of God and they had the choice to believe God and put their faith in Him.
God also sent many prophets in the land and whatever they preached was the WORD of GOD. And those who believed,
would have faith, because faith comes by hearing the WORD of God.
When Jesus came, He came and finished this work of faith, giving the substance of our faith actual content and power
to defeat death in the cross. Jesus came and paid the price so that all who had believed in the
WORD of GOD, whether from the prophet of God or from God from heaven, would be saved. This work of Jesus transcended time,
because even though he died in time, this saving work was completed in eternity passed.
Which is why Revelation 13:8 speaks of the "... the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world."
It is like I tell everyone on TJ I'm starting a company buy a stock. Everyone starts giving me money
to buy this stock for a company that has not yet started in anticipation (faith) of the profits. I give them
all certificates of stock, and then next year I actually create the company and actually make money and then
give them the profits. Similarly, those who lived before Jesus had an opportunity to hold unto the promise
through believing the WORD of God (Jesus is the WORD of God), but this WORD came through the prophets
or through general revelation (creation).
SO while there are some who lived and may have never heard the name Jesus Christ, there is none
who lived to a reasonable age of having conscious who did not have an encounter with JESUS the WORD
of God, whether through the prophets, general revelation of creation, or the gospel.
So indeed the scriptures do not lie when it states,
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - Romans 1:20.
Jump in as well @God's Truth
That's the body but not the spirit since the spirit of the rich man was aware and feeling torment in hell whereas the beggar Lazarus was not in Abraham's bosom.
complete
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Hello @GodB4Us,
With respect to you: the Lord Jesus Christ, with the story of the rich man and Lazarus, shows the hypocrisy of the Pharisees to whom it was being addressed. For Abraham's bosom and the belief that the dead can communicate with the living is pharisaic doctrine. This was intended as an exposure, and not to teach concerning life after death.
* Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees!! Is the watchword that still needs to be proclaimed it seems; for it has, and is, perpetuating Satan's lie spoken in the garden of Eden, 'Ye shall not surely die'.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Not sure how you derived that from His words when it was about how the living has His words that if they do not believe the scripture now, neither will they believe even the one that has risen from the dead. Kind of prophetic to the nation of Israel in regards to rejecting the chief cornerstone, Jesus Christ, & His words, for eternal life.
However, in 1 Samuel 28:5-20 KJV King Saul was not getting an answer from the Lord for why he turned to a medium to contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel. It was the actual spirit of Samuel that was raised up from beneath the earth because he prophesied Saul's death along with his two sons and it came true.
I know some will say it wasn't really Samuel, but then scripture would not address that spirit as if it was Samuel if it was a deceiving spirit. Scripture would testify that Saul was deceived by a spirit, but it did not.
This is why God says it is an abomination, not because they could not contact the dead, but because they were to look to God for guidance. Isaiah 8:19
It is on that basis that I see Jesus telling of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus as a true story as Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, was located beneath the earth at the time of Jesus's death for Him to meet the thief on the cross in Paradise that day since He had to descend to preach to those in prison to tell them the Good News so that when He had resurrected and ascended, He took Paradise and her inhabitants with Him to Heaven to await for their resurrection at the rapture event.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, ....
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Paul spoke indirectly of the apostle John bore witness of in Paradise as now being located in the third Heaven; God's throne from whence the apostle John had written the Book of Revelation about.
2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
So I believe there is an awareness and life after death for then when we die, we shall be with the Lord in Heaven with our spirits awaiting for our resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Since those who die during the great tribulation are aware and waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation, then the same is true for us now before the rapture event.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
So there are scriptural basis for me to believe Jesus telling of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus as a true story.
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Hello @GodB4Us,Not sure how you derived that from His words when it was about how the living has His words that if they do not believe the scripture now, neither will they believe even the one that has risen from the dead. Kind of prophetic to the nation of Israel in regards to rejecting the chief cornerstone, Jesus Christ, & His words, for eternal life.
However, in 1 Samuel 28:5-20 KJV King Saul was not getting an answer from the Lord for why he turned to a medium to contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel. It was the actual spirit of Samuel that was raised up from beneath the earth because he prophesied Saul's death along with his two sons and it came true.
I know some will say it wasn't really Samuel, but then scripture would not address that spirit as if it was Samuel if it was a deceiving spirit. Scripture would testify that Saul was deceived by a spirit, but it did not.
This is why God says it is an abomination, not because they could not contact the dead, but because they were to look to God for guidance. Isaiah 8:19
It is on that basis that I see Jesus telling of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus as a true story as Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, was located beneath the earth at the time of Jesus's death for Him to meet the thief on the cross in Paradise that day since He had to descend to preach to those in prison to tell them the Good News so that when He had resurrected and ascended, He took Paradise and her inhabitants with Him to Heaven to await for their resurrection at the rapture event.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, ....
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Paul spoke indirectly of the apostle John bore witness of in Paradise as now being located in the third Heaven; God's throne from whence the apostle John had written the Book of Revelation about.
2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
So I believe there is an awareness and life after death for then when we die, we shall be with the Lord in Heaven with our spirits awaiting for our resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Since those who die during the great tribulation are aware and waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation, then the same is true for us now before the rapture event.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
So there are scriptural basis for me to believe Jesus telling of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus as a true story.
We are so far apart in our appreciation of this subject that I cannot even begin to respond to you. I will have to leave it with the Lord. All I will say is that the Lord Jesus Christ would not contradict the general testimony of the Scriptures in regard to the state of the dead: the testimony of which would deny the possibility of the rich man and Lazarus story being factual.
The examples you have given of the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28, the thief on the cross, re. paradise (Luke 23:43), and your use of 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10, Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, and Isaiah 8:19 as proof texts I find astounding, and your interpretation of them to confirm your thinking on this deplorable.
It shocks me that you should hold such a view, and I hope the Lord will show you the error that you are propounding. It is not possible for the living to contact the dead, for death means the absence of life. There is no life after death apart from resurrection, and that has yet to take place.
May God give grace.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I understand your point of view as I have come across those who apply the verses regarding the dead as if there is no awareness after we die, but they are being misapplied when it is about them not having the cares they once had in the land of the living. Scripture is not inferring that there is no awareness after death since I have shared scripture regarding that truth, but those scripture is just showing how the dead cannot care for the things they once did when they were alive.
MedicBravo
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Every generation fell further and further from God until He rarely showed himself to anyone. He couldn't.
At some point humanity was so far that the personal relationship with God was gone to the point they needed a Savior.
No matter how one repeats it if all one hears is "God said this and that and my great, great, great x10 grandparents saw and had a relationship." is has become empty.
With God we see how people, generally, are but without God we see how quickly they degrade into evil and sin.
At some point humanity was so far that the personal relationship with God was gone to the point they needed a Savior.
No matter how one repeats it if all one hears is "God said this and that and my great, great, great x10 grandparents saw and had a relationship." is has become empty.
With God we see how people, generally, are but without God we see how quickly they degrade into evil and sin.
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Hello @GodB4Us,
I have woken from sleep with my response to you on my mind, and I apologise for reacting as I did in reply#46, please forgive me. It comes across as an attack on you personally, and that was not what I intended. If you are willing, I will respond to each of the Scriptures you have raised in another reply, hopefully tomorrow.
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Chris
It certainly would explain the state of the church as well as the nation for the judgment that God shall give to fallen Babylon USA in Revelation 18:1-24 after the rapture event.
Oddly enough I was awaken from sleep, went to the bathroom, and went back to bed and closed my eye for a while when my bowels started getting uncomfortable & I looked at the digital clock and it read 5:05 A.M. as if telling me S.O.S and then I reflected on a dream I had when I had woke up about moving candy to the front of the table in a store for easier access to customers, but another worker came along and showed me a diagram for how the boss wanted it done.
So I got up and saw your reply. He has done this before in relations to other replies. It was odd as your other last reply to me was on my mind, thinking that maybe another thread was necessary to discuss the topic Biblically for others' sake, thus moving it to the front of the table.
So do know I was not offended but I do forgive you since you had asked. We all prophesy in part and know in part and one day we will know everything when we see Him face to face, but it is possible to get answers even now.
The dream does seem to hint that I should wait for your reply as if setting the diagram for furthering the discussion into the scripture, if the Lord is willing, and I believe He is.
I believe the SOS may be because someone is thinking of ending their lives so they will not feel nor think any more but the scripture in Revelation 6:9-11 does testify that there is awareness after death as we will be with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:7-8 So for any one reading this, suicide is not the answer but to wait on the Lord in hope for each day is the answer since He is in us and with us always as He will help us walk us through this valley of death to fear no evil nor any suffering.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
And man can do a lot of things to me but He will and can help me through the storms in our lives to suffer it for His name's sake.
James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
It seems odd to read this that His saints will be happy when we endure our sufferings, but although I am not rejoicing in the face of persecution and oppression, as one would think of rejoicing, I do have His peace through it all.
So for any one that is losing sight of Him because of the storms in your life, there is an awareness after death as we will be with the Lord in Heaven and the shame will be there for not trusting Him to help us through our trials in life if we went there by suicide. So trust the Lord now and as I have found when I find it hard to trust Him at various times because I was looking at me & my past sins for doubting why He would help me for the way my life ended up as, I even had asked Him to help me to trust Him too and He did.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Believers are free to ask the Lord for help when they doubt for whatever the reason or reasons.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
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Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
Hello @GodB4Us,
I hope @MedicoBravo will not mind this diversion from the main subject of his thread: but I will now apply myself to these references you have given, and will endeavour to be as brief and concise as possible. I answer them on the basis of the difference of opinion we expressed concerning Luke 16:19-31. You believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story being related by the Lord, whereas I believe that it is a satirical fable, told by our Lord as a means of exposing the hypocritical doctrines of the Pharisees. Yet the verses you have quoted are largely provided with the object of proving what you believe to be true, that the soul exists beyond death, and is either in heaven or occupying a place of eternal conscious punishment, which is traditionally what Hell is considered to be, Yes? OK, let's begin:-
1) 1 Samuel 28:1-20 - the Witch of Endor:-
'And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went,
and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night:
and he said, "I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit,
and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee."'
( 1Sam. 28:8)
'Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee?
And he said, "Bring me up Samuel."
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice:
and the woman spake to Saul, saying,
"Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul."'
(1 Sam. 28:11-12)
* Notice that it was the woman whom we are told 'saw' Samuel, Saul does not see him, she has to tell him what she herself saw. Also how does the woman know the identity of Saul himself? It has to have been communicated to her by means of the 'familiar spirit' that she had (1 Sam. 28:7; Leviticus 19:31). I believe that the woman 'saw' the materialisation of a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as is done by 'mediums' today. She was surprised for she 'cried with a loud voice', obviously receiving more than she expected. What did she see:-
'And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou?
And the woman said unto Saul," I saw gods ascending out of the earth."
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said,
"An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle."
And Saul perceived that it was Samuel,
and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.'
(1 Sam. 28:13-14)
* If a spirit, why a mantle? Samuel's spirit was with God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), and if Samuel's body, it would be clothed with 'grave-clothes' (John 11:44). From what Saul heard from the woman, he 'perceived' that it was Samuel, yet he himself did not see what she 'saw'.
* The deceiving spirit, masquerading as Samuel, speaks to Saul (obviously through the median-ship of the woman), for Saul's body was dead, including all means of communication or thought, for Samuel had been dead for two years). In 2 Chronicles 18:19-22, Jehovah sent a lying spirit, and gave by it a true message, so this could have been what happened here, but nothing was said that was not well known before.
'And Samuel said to Saul,
"Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? (from the grave)
And Saul answered,
I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me,
and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:
therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do."
Then said Samuel,
Wherefore then dost thou ask of me,
seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
And the LORD hath done to him, as He spake by me:
for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand,
and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD,
nor executedst His fierce wrath upon Amalek,
therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines:
and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: (dead)
the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
(1 Sam. 28:15-19)
* This took longer than I thought, so I will come back to the rest in another entry.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Note:- Re. Samuel's mantle, the rent and it's significance:-
'And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee:
for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD,
and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
And as Samuel turned about to go away,
he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
And Samuel said unto him,
The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day,
and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent:
for he is not a man, that he should repent.'
(1 Samuel 15:26-29)
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The origin of sheol is uncertain. Hades literally means the unseen. It's not a place. It's the word that means to see, with the indefinite article before it. It was used of the dead because when they were buried they were unseen. In modern language we have what we call "the Grim Reaper" who supposedly collects the dead. The Greeks had the same thing and they called him Hades. Because the dead were buried he became known as the God of the underworld. Thus the underworld became known as the domain of Hades. However, this is all mythological. There is no being that comes around and collects the dead.
A proper translation of Hades is the grave. If we look at every occurrence of Hades in the Old and New Testaments we'll find that a tranlsation of grave fits every passage. However, if we use a definition of Hades that claims it's some place of eternal torment located in the earth, we'll find that that definition doesn't work in a lot of the place where the word Hades appears. This shows us that this definition is incorrect
Butch5
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Let me ask you a question. For people to suffer eternally, they need to live eternally, correct? If people will suffer eternally and thus live eternally where does that eternal life come from?
God promised the believer eternal life. He didn't promise the unbeliever eternal life.
If we say man has an immortal soul and will thus live forever, we have two problems. One, why would God promise eternal life to someone who already has eternal life? There isn't much point in that is there? Two, and a much bigger problem for the immortal soul doctrine is that Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 6 that the Father alone has immortality. If the Father alone has immortality then there is no such thing as the immortal soul
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Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
Hello again, @GodB4Us,
I hope the following will take less time and space than reply #52. Let's look at Luke 23:43:-
'And he said unto Jesus,"Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom."
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt Thou be with Me in paradise."'
(Luke 23:42)
The word, 'I say unto thee today ...' is a Hebraism, used for emphasis, it is found numerable times in Scripture, the misplacing of a coma in Luke 23:42, has led to a lot of misunderstanding in regard to what is being said by the Lord here. The Lord Himself would be in the grave for three days and three nights and then teaching His disciples for 40 days, before ascending into heaven. So the words, 'shalt thou be with Me in paradise' could not refer to the day upon which these words were spoken, but to that day when the Lord would Himself be in paradise. Which is yet to come. For I believe the 'paradise' referred to is that found in Revelation 2:7 in the New Jerusalem :-
'He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
( Revelation 2:7)
' In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river,
was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits,
and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'
(Rev 22:2)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
Hello again, @GodB4Us,
I hope the following will take less time and space than reply #52. Let's look at Luke 23:43:-
'And he said unto Jesus,"Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom."
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt Thou be with Me in paradise."'
(Luke 23:42)
The word, 'I say unto thee today ...' is a Hebraism, used for emphasis, it is found numerable times in Scripture, the misplacing of a coma in Luke 23:42, has led to a lot of misunderstanding in regard to what is being said by the Lord here. The Lord Himself would be in the grave for three days and three nights and then teaching His disciples for 40 days, before ascending into heaven. So the words, 'shalt thou be with Me in paradise' could not refer to the day upon which these words were spoken, but to that day when the Lord would Himself be in paradise. Which is yet to come. For I believe the 'paradise' referred to is that found in Revelation 2:7 in the New Jerusalem :-
'He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
( Revelation 2:7)
' In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river,
was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits,
and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'
(Rev 22:2)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (tartaroo)
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'
(1 Peter 3:18-20)
Hello @GodB4Us,
Looking at 1 Peter 3:18-20 (above), yes, Praise God, our Lord was 'quickened by the Spirit', and was taken by the spirit to sound the note of victory to the angels that had sinned in the days of Noah (Jude 1:6). He had vanquished death, and opened up the way for the gift of God to be realised by those sinners who had been saved by His grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. to whom He had promised life through His name. Death had lost it's sting for all such.
Here He is triumphing over these angels that brought about the destruction of the earth by flood, causing mankind to become corrupted genealogically, except for faithful Noah. All of Satan's attempts had failed, Christ was victorious, He had destroyed the works of the Devil.
'And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers,
He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.'
(Col 2:13)
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (tartaroo)
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'
(1 Peter 3:18-20)
Hello @GodB4Us,
Looking at 1 Peter 3:18-20 (above), yes, Praise God, our Lord was 'quickened by the Spirit', and was taken by the spirit to sound the note of victory to the angels that had sinned in the days of Noah (Jude 1:6). He had vanquished death, and opened up the way for the gift of God to be realised by those sinners who had been saved by His grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. to whom He had promised life through His name. Death had lost it's sting for all such.
Here He is triumphing over these angels that brought about the destruction of the earth by flood, causing mankind to become corrupted genealogically, except for faithful Noah. All of Satan's attempts had failed, Christ was victorious, He had destroyed the works of the Devil.
'And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers,
He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.'
(Col 2:13)
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Man is known to be mortal. Psalm 146:3
The soul that sins will die. Ezekiel 18:20
Thanks to Jesus , man can be born again.
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23
1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I take it that in reference to this " corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on Immortality ", that refers to those born again and have the imperishable seed.
Although there are other views and interpretations.
The soul that sins will die. Ezekiel 18:20
Thanks to Jesus , man can be born again.
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23
1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I take it that in reference to this " corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on Immortality ", that refers to those born again and have the imperishable seed.
Although there are other views and interpretations.
Butch5
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Hi Chris, Good answer!
I'd like to elaborate if you dont mind. In the Hebrew text it says the woman saw "elohim" gods. This passage doesn't speak of spirit or soul. Those who say people live on after death claim that it is the Spirit or soul that lives on. But, as I said, this passage doesn't use either word. So, the question to ask them is, if this is Samuel, what is it? It's not his spirit. It's not his soul. It's obviously not his body. So what is it? The woman saw "elohim" or gods. The Bible tells us that the gods of the pagans are demons. She saw and spoke with a demon. This is confirmed by a statement in 1 Chronicles.
1 Chronicles 10:13 (KJV 1900): So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
Saul specifically sought out a demon possessed woman to inquire of it. Obviously he wasn't inquiring of the woman as she'd have no knowledge. He was inquiring of the demon.
Are we to believe that Samuel, a prophet of God is going to obey demons? In addition, Necromancy was expressly forbidden in Israel. God made it punishable by death through stoning. Are we to believe that Samuel participated in such an activity.
Let's go even farther, Saul said,
1 Samuel 28:15 (KJV 1900): I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:
1 Samuel 28:6 (KJV 1900): And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Saul himself said that God wouldn't answer him. He even said God wouldn't answer him by prophets. If God won't answer Saul by prophets how is it that a dead prophet can answer Saul? Where did the Answer come from? Obviously not God as He's not answering Saul.
I think it's pretty clear from the text. It says Saul was seeking a demon possessed woman to inquire of it
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Re: References quoted in Reply #48 by @GodB4Us:-
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.'
(2 Cor. 12:1-4)
Hello @GodB4Us,
Next reference, (above):-
Like John, who was taken in Spirit to. 'The Lord's Day', who saw visions related to that period of time, and recorded them according to God's instruction, It would seem that Paul also had a like experience, unless he was referring to John's own experience of course?
* On to the next reference, which is Ephesians 4:7-10:-
'But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:7-10)
Yes, Praise God! Christ Jesus our risen Lord did all of that. He finished the work that His Father sent Him to do.
I have now run out of steam, I'm afraid. That's all for now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
1 Samuel 28:1-20, Luke 23:43, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Ephesians 4:7-10,
Revelation 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:7-9, Revelation 6:9-11, Isaiah 8:19.
'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.'
(2 Cor. 12:1-4)
Hello @GodB4Us,
Next reference, (above):-
Like John, who was taken in Spirit to. 'The Lord's Day', who saw visions related to that period of time, and recorded them according to God's instruction, It would seem that Paul also had a like experience, unless he was referring to John's own experience of course?
* On to the next reference, which is Ephesians 4:7-10:-
'But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:7-10)
Yes, Praise God! Christ Jesus our risen Lord did all of that. He finished the work that His Father sent Him to do.
I have now run out of steam, I'm afraid. That's all for now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
