Can A Saved person Ever Become Unsaved?

[Curtis]

And how do we "exercise" our faith? (Faith itself is a work)
But according to your statement... faith "does not make a person a child of God" ... does that mean something else is required?

What do you think this scripture means?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Receive him who? The Word of God!! Can faith alone save a person? Not unless he exercises his faith to become a child of God. How is that done?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[amadeus2]

As a matter fact we do not even come to Christ he draws us, it has nothing to do with us

We, believers, were certainly all drawn by Him, but did all allow themselves to be drawn closer by being obedient?

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

But are all who are called also chosen?

"For many are called, but few are chosen. " Matt 22:14

Why are not all those who are called included among the chosen? Perhaps it is because they do not acknowledge their call. Perhaps they will not be with the Lord of Lords because they quenched the Spirit given to them and disobeyed God's instructions to them. Men who have received God's special gift based on the sacrifice of Jesus have received the ability to make correctly for themselves the decision that Adam and Eve made wrongly back in Eden. Like Adam and Eve many people who have been on the right track can choose to leave that right track (that Highway of Holiness... Isa. 35:8)

We, who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost have received power from on high [Acts 1:8], but too often due to our own lack of faith fail to use that gift fully. Are we better than the natural children of Israel who were saved out of Egypt, but then were not allowed into the Promised Land because of repeated rebellions? [Num 14:22-23]

Yes, we have received more than those natural Israelites received, so then consider the words of Jesus in this regard:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever , much is given of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

They rebelled [ten times] and lost their entrance into the Promised Land. How many times will we be allowed to quench the Holy Spirit of God in us and will be allowed to be a part of His Kingdom, to be a part of the Body of Christ?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

We have received more power than those people in the OT who were denied entrance due to repeated rebellions. "Much is given, much is required".

 

[Waggles]

Waggles do you believe that we earn our salvation by doing something??

YES - by believing the gospel preached by Jesus and the apostles.
Responding with compliance and commitment to the commandments set by our Lord - repentance, water baptism by full immersion,
Holy Spirit baptism with these signs shall follow them that believe...
Patience, faithfulness, utilising the power of the Holy Spirit daily - praying in the Spirit, upholding our love of Jesus and his righteousness;
keeping our testimony true and valid, bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit, taking communion on Sundays, singing psalms, hymns and choruses;
reading the Word of God and being a doer of the Word;
recognizing temptation and enticements to stray away and empower the flesh, the old person - praying to overcome.;
giving value to and treasuring the great sacrifice that Jesus suffered for us - whilst we we yet sinners Christ Jesus died for us...

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Peter 1:4-10

 

[Dave M]

NO one is good enough to do anything to earn there salvation, we all deserve hell no matter how hard we try, this is fundamental in understanding salvation. NO matter what we do we fall short of deserving salvation. You would have to live a perfect life in order to obtain it through works and that is impossible

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

There is a before and after. The only thing we can do to initially get saved.. is believe.
However after we are saved, there are quite a few things we have to do in order to remain saved.

James 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
James 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matt 19:16; And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Matt 19:18; Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
Matt 19:19; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

If I may add... according to the Bible
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

And

Acts 2: 38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So according to scripture we must believe, confess (Him as Lord and Savior) , repent and be baptized (to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) not just believe.

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

YES - by believing the gospel preached by Jesus and the apostles.
Responding with compliance and commitment to the commandments set by our Lord - repentance, water baptism by full immersion,
Holy Spirit baptism with these signs shall follow them that believe...
Patience, faithfulness, utilising the power of the Holy Spirit daily - praying in the Spirit, upholding our love of Jesus and his righteousness;
keeping our testimony true and valid, bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit, taking communion on Sundays, singing psalms, hymns and choruses;
reading the Word of God and being a doer of the Word;
recognizing temptation and enticements to stray away and empower the flesh, the old person - praying to overcome.;
giving value to and treasuring the great sacrifice that Jesus suffered for us - whilst we we yet sinners Christ Jesus died for us...

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Peter 1:4-10

Good evening, I was hoping you would share the scripture that supports... taking communion on Sundays. Do you mean exclusively is my question? Thank you

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

As a matter fact we do not even come to Christ he draws us, it has nothing to do with us

What about this scripture in James?...

4:8 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

 

[Dave M]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6-65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[Dave M]

What about this scripture in James?...

4:8 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

yeap we are supposed to draw near to him as humanly possible, we do have responsibility, It is hard to comprehend that is all God that draws us but we have free will and responsibility also.

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

yeap we are supposed to draw near to him as humanly possible, we do have responsibility, It is hard to comprehend that is all God that draws us but we have free will and responsibility also.

Thank you brother in Christ for sharing your insights I am not understanding how you maintain it is all Him when the scripture clearly calls us to "do our pet" and Dee near to Him. Do you have scripture to support your "... that is all God that draws us..." statement?

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6-65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Perhaps I am not seeing your point.
This does not say we have no part in it brother. To assume it does inlight of the James 4 scripture I shared seems shortsighted although I am open to any scripture that says otherwise. Your help in that area would be appreciated! Thank you

 

[Dave M]

the drawing is all God, we respond. Jesus said no one can come to him on there own it has to be the father that draws them to him. We have no part in the drawing part we have part in the responding/ the scripture above supports this I think does it not?

IT say no one can come to me(Jesus )unless the Father who sent me draws him


( so this mean we can not come to Jesus on our own, only when the the father draws us in can we respond)

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[amadeus2]

NO one is good enough to do anything to earn there salvation, we all deserve hell no matter how hard we try, this is fundamental in understanding salvation. NO matter what we do we fall short of deserving salvation. You would have to live a perfect life in order to obtain it through works and that is impossible

Yes, for man alone it is impossible, but this is why we are to have Christ in us:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

How will any of us gain the rewards listed in Rev chapters 2 and 3 for overcomers if we never overcome as Jesus overcame? He came so that it would be possible for us to do the impossible by means of Christ in us... Is that not by means of the gift of Holy Ghost?

 

[B-A-C]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

OK, but what does this have to do with OSAS?

 

[Dave M]

OK, but what does this have to do with OSAS?

It does not have anything to do with it OSAS for the most part as I see it since we have free will to either accept or reject God when he draws us to him. Would you agree?

On the other hand some people who are predestined before they are borne to be saved or to not be saved, yet we still have free will. Pretty hard to comprehend that one from a human level, I an humble enough to accept the fact I can not possibly understand all the ways of our all mighty God. Yet the bible tells us

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


On the other hand look at the opposite of God doing to someone who it seems is predestined to hell

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses

Romans 9:20-22
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

BAC whats your take on osas ? its not 100% clear to me but it looks as though you do not ??

 

[Dave M]

Perhaps I am not seeing your point.
This does not say we have no part in it brother. To assume it does inlight of the James 4 scripture I shared seems shortsighted although I am open to any scripture that says otherwise. Your help in that area would be appreciated! Thank you

Hey JEff that is a great question and I do not claim to know it all, I love scripture and learning with brothers of Christ. So I can just give you the answer that looks to be the only one at this point from my understanding.

So in the scripture I listed God clearly tells us that we can not go to Jesus until God draws us to him.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

then in the scripture you listed is clearly states that

James- 4-8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

God states we are to draw near to him. Seems like a direct contradiction from what he is telling us in John6-44, my first thought is that when the father draws us to him we better be paying attention and draw near to him, instead of pulling away perhaps? Perhaps we can not draw near to him until he draws near to us but when he does we better be ready?

I do not know 100% for sure would love to here what you have to say on the matter.

 

[B-A-C]

On the other hand some people who are predestined before they are borne to be saved or to not be saved, yet we still have free will. Pretty hard to comprehend that one from a human level, I an humble enough to accept the fact I can not possibly understand all the ways of our all mighty God. Yet the bible tells us

The way that is written, I agree with it. I believe He draws us ALL to Him. Some choose to accept Him, others do not. Like you said.. Free will.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

On the other hand look at the opposite of God doing to someone who it seems is predestined to hell

Exodus 9:12;
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses

Yes but I notice the Lord didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until after Pharaoh hardened his own heart many times before that.

(Exod 7:13; Exod 7:22; Exod 8:15; Exod 8:19; Exod 8:32; Exod 9:7; etc.. )

If we keep rejecting God and being disobedient, He will finally give us what we want. (free will)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I notice that is EVERY single case of this. These people reject God and do not submit to Him. (which happens first, chicken and egg question)
But if you think about it.. why did God feel the need to "show His wrath" and "make known His power" to these disobedient people?

There are people in the Bible who walked with God for a while and then turned away... Saul, Solomon, Judas, Ananias, the Seventy disciples (or 72) etc...
Did God make these people they way were just to show us His wrath? Perhaps, but if that's true... then what guarantee do any of us have
that He wont harden our hearts and turn us away from Him?

Finally... I think the word predestination is often misused here.
For example... there are two planes at the airport. One is going to LA (predestined to go there) the other is going to New York (predestined to go there)
but it's up to me which plane I get on.

Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

I don't have a problem with God knowing the future. (He foreknew)... but just because He knows what choices we will make, doesn't mean He makes
them for us.

I may know you're going into the army. I didn't make you go into the army, you choose to do it on your own. But since you made that choice, it's
predestined that you will get a crew cut and wear camouflage clothing.

God may know in advance that you're going to choose to be saved. He didn't make the choice for you, but since you made the choice on your own...
it's predestined that you will be conformed into the image of His Son. ( Rom 8:29; )

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Maybe they are "drawn to Him", but He still wants people to seek Him.

Isa 55:6; Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

Prov 8:17; "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.

 

[Dave M]

I do not 100% understand the predestined thing and can appreciate your examples very much. Not sure I agree but I too think like that, as you said we have choices and God knows the out come. Such as God does not live in time so he can look into the future and see what and how we respond so he knows what we will do before we do it, so we have free will and God knows the future. This is my best understanding of it, but I am not 100% confident in it.

 

[B-A-C]

OK, I will drift slightly here. (apologies) But it is somewhat related to the discussion at hand.

Rom 10:13; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14; How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15; How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16; However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

I think it's possible that God comes to some people like He did to Paul/Saul on the road to Damascus. But for the vast majority of everyone else.
They don't just "come to God" on their own. Someone had to tell them about God/Jesus

John 12:32; "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

We need to "lift" "exalt" the name of Jesus. If we do this.. then men can be "drawn to Him".

The great commission (Matt or Mark, take your pick)

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Mark 16:19; So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mark 16:20; And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

Why would Jesus tell the disciples (and us) to go out into all the world and preach the gospel?