2 Corinthians 5 :4 - The unclothed state

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'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello there,

I believe that at death the body goes back to the dust from whence it came, and that the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). That what is referred to here as an unclothed state, is the state of death itself. For what Paul wished to avoid was dying prior to the Lord's return, for his expectation was to be clothed upon with a resurrection body, and be with the Lord, which required the Lord's physical presence.

The hope expressed during the Acts period was for the imminent return of Christ, which required Israel's repentance, which did not come, so we still await the appearing of our Saviour, and the resurrection promised.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

This is why some of us feel a great burden has been lifted from us when we disrobe. Many people I know read scripture pray etc only when they are disrobed. The difference is palpable. whether it is Phsycological or spiritual doesnt matter, it brings one much closer to the truth and to God.

 

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This is why some of us feel a great burden has been lifted from us when we disrobe. Many people I know read scripture pray etc only when they are disrobed. The difference is palpable. whether it is Phsycological or spiritual doesnt matter, it brings one much closer to the truth and to God.

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello @Gregoryp,

Forgive me, but I do not understand, we do not appear to be talking about the same thing.

The 'tabernacle' Paul refers to is his earthly body, the one he was born with, the one he desires to be clothed with is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:1, 'a building of God', which is a body like our Lord's resurrection body, He desires that what is mortal put on immortality, and what is corruptible put on what is incorruptible. That will take place for each believer at the resurrection from the dead. That requires the return of Christ Jesus our risen Lord, and that is what Paul, and all believers during the Acts period were looking for. It did not happen, because Israel failed to come to repentance, so awaits a yet future day. Until then Paul and all of like faith await the resurrection, as do you and I.

Paul's desire was not to die (or be in an unclothed state) but to be clothed upon of life. Resurrection life.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

Never mind, different pages perhaps. I was inferring that when we are naked, its the naked unadulterated truth, with nothing to hide. All our sins, our doubts, our self worth, our battle with addictions, worldly traditions and conditioning, all is exposed. The truth. Then from there its the journey to sanctification and to holyness thanks to Gods generosity. Also it brings us closer to God. ( I am not the only one who experiences this, I know of many others)

 

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Never mind, different pages perhaps. I was inferring that when we are naked, its the naked unadulterated truth, with nothing to hide. All our sins, our doubts, our self worth, our battle with addictions, worldly traditions and conditioning, all is exposed. The truth. Then from there its the journey to sanctification and to holyness thanks to Gods generosity. Also it brings us closer to God. ( I am not the only one who experiences this, I know of many others)

Hello @Gregoryp,,

Thank you for explaining your first response.

This exposure to the truth of your condition, as a sinner in need of salvation, is the experience of all who recognise their need of a Saviour to one extent or another I believe. The realisation that in God's sight you are a sinner, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The knowledge that the wages of sin is death, but that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, shows us the depth of our sinfulness but also gives us the hope of the forgiveness of our sins, and of life in Him.

Are we on the same page now in relation to this?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

Yes, I get it. Similar principles but different perspective.

 

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'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello again, @Gregoryp,

You indicated that you were in agreement with (or 'liked) what I wrote concerning the unclothed state of 2 Corinthians 5:4 in reply#3. Am I right in thinking this?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

yes indeed, clothed with the white robes given to us by Jesus Christ, to signify our redemption by being covered in righteousness and glory. My perspective was removing all the worldy conditioning, traditions , addictions and confessing to all the sin etc from ourselves. Then we are an empty vessell ready for the holy spirit etc to sanctify us and give us the gift of eternal life. I hope I explained myself a little better this time.

 

[complete]

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello @Gregoryp,

Forgive me, but I do not understand, we do not appear to be talking about the same thing.

The 'tabernacle' Paul refers to is his earthly body, the one he was born with, the one he desires to be clothed with is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:1, 'a building of God', which is a body like our Lord's resurrection body, He desires that what is mortal put on immortality, and what is corruptible put on what is incorruptible. That will take place for each believer at the resurrection from the dead. That requires the return of Christ Jesus our risen Lord, and that is what Paul, and all believers during the Acts period were looking for. It did not happen, because Israel failed to come to repentance, so awaits a yet future day. Until then Paul and all of like faith await the resurrection, as do you and I.

Paul's desire was not to die (or be in an unclothed state) but to be clothed upon of life. Resurrection life.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi @Gregoryp,

Do you agree also that this change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption, the exchange of the earthly body for a heavenly one, takes place at the resurrection, which we all await? Not at death which some appear to suggest?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

It most certainly is not at death. Its at the day of Judgement. There is either a robe handed to you to wear (Symbolically speaking of course) or your sent to hades. Its that simple.

 

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It most certainly is not at death. Its at the day of Judgement. There is either a robe handed to you to wear (Symbolically speaking of course) or your sent to hades. Its that simple.

Hi @Gregoryp

Thank you for kindly responding to my questions. It is pleasant to be able to engage with someone on a one to one basis like this.

I am glad that we are in agreement about the fact that it is not at death that this exchange takes place but by the power of the resurrection, on that day of God's choosing.

The second death is indeed the alternative to resurrection life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

The second death must be the trip to Hades. Only our physical vessell dies, our soul is eternal. The elect are sent to paradise and carry on living. The dead are technically still alive, but as far as we are concerned they may as well be deceased, as they will be forgotten with no hope for eternity.

 

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The second death must be the trip to Hades. Only our physical vessell dies, our soul is eternal. The elect are sent to paradise and carry on living. The dead are technically still alive, but as far as we are concerned they may as well be deceased, as they will be forgotten with no hope for eternity.

Hello @Gregoryp,

The second death is referred to in Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6 & 14; and Revelation 21:8, and it is their testimony that must have the last word on this,, I am sure you will agree ; and in 20:14 we are told that Death and Hell are also cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. So Hell ( or Hades, Sheol, Gehenna and Tartaroo) cannot be the final destination of the soul that sinneth. In fact it says elsewhere, that, 'the soul that sinneth it shall surely die' (Ezeliel 18:20) so the soul itself is not immortal.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

2Corinthians 5:1-10


For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:8-9


Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:23

 

[Br. Bear]

He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
1Thessalonians 5:10


But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:24

 

[Butch5]

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello there,

I believe that at death the body goes back to the dust from whence it came, and that the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). That what is referred to here as an unclothed state, is the state of death itself. For what Paul wished to avoid was dying prior to the Lord's return, for his expectation was to be clothed upon with a resurrection body, and be with the Lord, which required the Lord's physical presence.

The hope expressed during the Acts period was for the imminent return of Christ, which required Israel's repentance, which did not come, so we still await the appearing of our Saviour, and the resurrection promised.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I don't believe death is what Paul is referring to. He was arguing against the idea that there is no resurrection, see 1 Cor. 15. The Greeks believed that they would live on after the body died in some form of disembodied consciousness. Paul is arguing against this idea. Being unclothed in the Greek mind was to be a living being that has departed the body.

 

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I don't believe death is what Paul is referring to. He was arguing against the idea that there is no resurrection, see 1 Cor. 15. The Greeks believed that they would live on after the body died in some form of disembodied consciousness. Paul is arguing against this idea. Being unclothed in the Greek mind was to be a living being that has departed the body.

' For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2Co 5:1-5)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding. However, The 'unclothed' state is that state which exists when the earthly body goes back to the ground from whence it came, awaiting the resurrection from the dead, when it will clothed upon once more by life.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

 

[Butch5]

' For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2Co 5:1-5)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding. However, The 'unclothed' state is that state which exists when the earthly body goes back to the ground from whence it came, awaiting the resurrection from the dead, when it will clothed upon once more by life.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

What exactly then is unclothed? We see in 1 Cor 15 that some of the Corinthians were denying the resurrection of the dead. This is the issue Paul is addressing. As I stated before, the Greeks believed that man was a spiritual being that lived in a temporary body. This is the idea that Paul is refuting. The Greeks claimed that when man died his spirit would ascend through the heavens. The spirit that left the body would be unclothed. Paul's argument is that man doesn't leave the body. He isn't unclothed.

 

[complete]

What exactly then is unclothed? We see in 1 Cor 15 that some of the Corinthians were denying the resurrection of the dead. This is the issue Paul is addressing. As I stated before, the Greeks believed that man was a spiritual being that lived in a temporary body. This is the idea that Paul is refuting. The Greeks claimed that when man died his spirit would ascend through the heavens. The spirit that left the body would be unclothed. Paul's argument is that man doesn't leave the body. He isn't unclothed.

Hello @Butch5,

I see what you are saying, but I have no knowledge of what the Greeks believed. I agree that this chapter is a refutation of those who were denying the resurrection of the dead. Yet I believe that being 'unclothed' or 'naked' (1 Corinthians 5:1-4) is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:37 as 'bare grain'.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul said He was willing to be absent from the body but present with the Lord. However, for that to happen it was necessary for Christ to return, for only then would mortality put on immortality, and corruption put on incorruption as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, by the resurrection from the dead, or by being changed in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are still alive at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:52). The latter are those, of course, who 'will never die', that our Lord spoke of to Martha, when He told her that He was, 'The Resurrection and The Life', in John 11:25-26.

Forgive me, for I know that this is a bit garbled, but I am too tired to do justice to this tonight. Please come back to me if you have further thoughts, or can unscramble mine expressed here.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I see what you are saying, but I have no knowledge of what the Greeks believed. I agree that this chapter is a refutation of those who were denying the resurrection of the dead. Yet I believe that being 'unclothed' or 'naked' (1 Corinthians 5:1-4) is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:37 as 'bare grain'.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul said He was willing to be absent from the body but present with the Lord. However, for that to happen it was necessary for Christ to return, for only then would mortality put on immortality, and corruption put on incorruption as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, by the resurrection from the dead, or by being changed in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are still alive at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:52). The latter are those, of course, who 'will never die', that our Lord spoke of to Martha, when He told her that He was, 'The Resurrection and The Life', in John 11:25-26.

Forgive me, for I know that this is a bit garbled, but I am too tired to do justice to this tonight. Please come back to me if you have further thoughts, or can unscramble mine expressed here.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Complete. I think we agree for the most part. My point is that the Greeks believed in a concept called Dualism. They believed that man was a spirit being that could live apart from the body. If you read the passage in Acts where Paul is at Mars Hill, when he starts to speak of the resurrection some of the Greeks began to mock him. The mocked the idea of resurrection. They saw the body as a prison needing to be escaped.