Hello B-A-C,
@MrBear said:-
Paul was constantly talking about being clothed in Christ to “ put on Christ “
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
GALATIANS 3:26-27
Meaning to keep Torah like Christ
Christ was the living example of keeping Torah a walking talking representation of gods law so to be clothed in Christ is to be Christlike which is to walk in Righteousness ( or right way)
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
REVELATION 3:4
I clothed myself in righteousness, and it enveloped me; my just decisions were like a robe and a turban
righteous means living right keeping gods laws they are eternal first oral, then written, then finally in the flesh as Jesus
My interpretation is that Paul doesn’t want to be “ unclothed” doesn’t want to be unrighteous, the Jews followed laws they made up and they had thier own laws and not gods law so they were not walking with righteousness and Jesus had no trouble calling them out on it.
I love Paul
Here’s some 2 Corinthians material about keeping Torah which Paul did faithfully ( after Christ’s death)
But he was constantly followed by the Jews trying to turn his new converts back to Judaism
People speculate they are the THORN he is referring to
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
2 Corinthians 12:7
Because back in the book of numbers the word “ thorns” meant enemies
I love Paul’s ministry he always pointed the way back to Jesus so that’s my take on the clothing of Christ.
SHALOM
Thank you brother I would check out the video it does expound on your question paul was referring to being clothed in the new Jerusalem “and “ clothed in righteousness at the same time'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)
Hello @MrBear,
Thank you for your post, I enjoyed reading the thoughts you have expressed on this, and the verses you have quoted, but I have not listened to the video clip you have introduced.
Yes, Paul did talk about putting on Christ and thereby being Christ-like, I agree. But I do not think that the context of the verse under consideration in the OP (above), allows for that . For it includes reference to, 'mortality being swallowed up of life,' amongst other things, and is obviously talking about physically dying.
I am glad that you 'love Paul', for so do I.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
"I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.” - Nahum 1:14
Isn't keeping the Torah the same as going back to Judaism when seeking righteousness by the law as if to keep the Torah by the religious flesh & will of man is how one finishes by the flesh what was begun by Jesus Christ with the Spirit?
I believe the phrase "messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh" is what people would say today as mental illness because Paul was hearing voices. Neither persecution from others, nor failing eye sight, nor an injury he had suffered can hardly demote Paul in the eyes of others let alone keep him from thinking of himself higher than he ought to think for all the revelations that was coming by him from the Lord which was the point for why God was not removing this thorn in the flesh.But he was constantly followed by the Jews trying to turn his new converts back to Judaism
People speculate they are the THORN he is referring to
2 Corinthians 12:7
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me
Because back in the book of numbers the word “ thorns” meant enemies
I love Paul’s ministry he always pointed the way back to Jesus so that’s my take on the clothing of christ
SHALOM
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
All your 'copy and pasting' is avoiding the simple issue - will you be clothed or unclothed?Isn't keeping the Torah the same as going back to Judaism when seeking righteousness by the law as if to keep the Torah by the religious flesh & will of man is how one finishes by the flesh what was begun by Jesus Christ with the Spirit?
Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
How did we put on Christ other than by our faith in Jesus Christ for how we had received the promise of the Spirit at our salvation moment when we got born again of the Spirit and thus the sons of God?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I believe the phrase "messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh" is what people would say today as mental illness because Paul was hearing voices. Neither persecution from others, nor failing eye sight, nor an injury he had suffered can hardly demote Paul in the eyes of others let alone keep him from thinking of himself higher than he ought to think for all the revelations that was coming by him from the Lord which was the point for why God was not removing this thorn in the flesh.
Paul began with an indirect reference to the apostle John and the Book of Revelation for glorying in, but in regards to himself, he would share the truth to prevent others from glorying in Paul.
2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
It seems to be the only thing I can se as Paul's actual thorn in the flesh that would fit the messenger of Satan because if by persecution, why pray for the removal of this personal thorn unless it was continually present with him to suffer?. Not like he prayed for the removal of persecution from other saints as being that thorn in the flesh. So I see it as personal that he is suffering from and yet something that would prevent others from thinking too highly of him then they ought to think.
Paul had debased himself in an earlier epistle.
1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
We prophesy in part and know in part and so one day we shall know for sure what that thorn in the flesh is, but I suspect by his very words, Paul was hearing voices ( messengers of Satan ) that buffet him in his flesh. Christians with mental illness should take comfort that God will help them through this personal suffering as He did for Paul and Paul did testify that God was enabling him to live with it & still have His peace.
@B-A-C @complete @Alley Oop
I did reference how we are clothed and with the scripture, and that it is at our salvation moment when we were born again of the Spirit by believing in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel.
You won't be clothed if you are unclothed - die physically.
Paul reaped thorns because He destroyed His vineyard:
Since scripture cannot go against scripture is why you should discern with Him the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:4 in context.
Are you @Phedup ?
all those that live after the flesh shall die -Romans 8:13a.
The context of II Cor 5:4 only enhances it. You provided the full context, without explaining why verse 4 is anything different from what it says. You are scurrying to find a way to avoid admitting that you shall be "Unclothed". Your obfuscation and vain deflections don't work with Alley Oop.Since scripture cannot go against scripture is why you should discern with Him the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:4 in context.
Galatians 3:. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
So how do all believers put on Christ in according to verse 27? By having been baptized into Christ.
Water baptism? No. By the baptism of the Holy Ghost sent by the Father at our born again of the Spirit moment of salvation for when we first had believed in Jesus Christ & since salvation, has been always Spirit-filled.
So what about your reference? It has nothing to do with "how to put on Christ" as referenced in Galatians 3:27 above.
This is a different type of reference as "being clothed upon" is another topic. We are waiting for the redemption of our bodies as first fruits of the resurrection, but meanwhile, when we die, our spirits will be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I'll repeat since you seem to be glossing over the post at a glance.
you are not with the Lord now? who are you with then?
When we got saved, we put on Christ and thereby clothed upon.
Matthew 7:13-27 is about false prophets coming into the churches by broadening the only way in coming to God the Father ( John 14:6 ) by including the focus on the Holy Spirit as another way, but it is a work of iniquity because it is a thief. John 10:1-5 for why they are following a stranger's voice, hence tongues for private use as gained by an extra phenomenon sometimes known as the second blessing and hyped for other believers to seek after as another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues.
you will be unclothed - die physically, in that you are in the wide gate to death with all the wolves in sheep's clothing that keep the dysfunctional wolf-children cozy there (Matt 7:13-15).
It was permitteded for Paul to continue, for the hardness of your hearts.
