2 Corinthians 5 :4 - The unclothed state

[Merlin]

Romans 2:7-8

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You're either 'Seeking immortality" or you're "Contentious".

 

[complete]

Romans 2:7-8

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You're either 'Seeking immortality" or you're "Contentious".

Hello @Merlin,

Romans 2:7-8 , refers to those who on the day that God will judge the secrets of men's hearts will be granted life by Him, on the basis of the fact that their heart sought glory and honour in well doing. These are those who had not heard the gospel of the grace of God. God will judge them righteously for He knows their heart., and knows that had they heard, they would indeed have believed on His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and not be standing before Him in judgement. For, to the praise of the glory of His grace, those who have put their trust in Him for salvation on the basis of the finished work of Christ, will not come into condemnation. (Romans 8:1)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Merlin]

Hello @Merlin,

Romans 2:7-8 , refers to those who on the day that God will judge the secrets of men's hearts will be granted life by Him, on the basis of the fact that their heart sought glory and honour in well doing. These are those who had not heard the gospel of the grace of God. God will judge them righteously for He knows their heart., and knows that had they heard, they would indeed have believed on His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and not be standing before Him in judgement. For, to the praise of the glory of His grace, those who have put their trust in Him for salvation on the basis of the finished work of Christ, will not come into condemnation. (Romans 8:1)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

In your personal commentary, you left off the phrase "immortality; eternal life" in the second line.
As long as you broached Romans 8, I'll state here that Romans 8:13 is akin to Romans 2:7 -
"For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" - this is the "clothed upon" state mentioned in II Cor 5:2 and 4.

 

[complete]

In your personal commentary, you left off the phrase "immortality; eternal life" in the second line.
As long as you broached Romans 8, I'll state here that Romans 8:13 is akin to Romans 2:7 -
"For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" - this is the "clothed upon" state mentioned in II Cor 5:2 and 4.

'To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
(Romans 2:7-8)

Hello @Merlin,

I was not seeking to give a personal commentary on Romans 2:7-8, but merely pointing out that those spoken of in those verse had not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and so salvation by grace had not been afforded them. They will therefore be judged by God according to the secrets of their heart, which He alone can see and therefore He alone can judge.

I do not agree that Romans 8:13 is akin to Romans 2:7 as you suggest, for those in 8:13 had heard and believed the gospel of God concerning His Son, and will therefore not come into condemnation anyway. Also those referred to in Romans 2:7 do not have the option of living according to the spirit, because they do not have the new nature (or spirit) indwelling, having not been born from above through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

Thank you (interesting)
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Merlin]

'To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
(Romans 2:7-8)

Hello @Merlin,

I was not seeking to give a personal commentary on Romans 2:7-8, but merely pointing out that those spoken of in those verse had not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and so salvation by grace had not been afforded them. They will therefore be judged by God according to the secrets of their heart, which He alone can see and therefore He alone can judge.

I do not agree that Romans 8:13 is akin to Romans 2:7 as you suggest, for those in 8:13 had heard and believed the gospel of God concerning His Son, and will therefore not come into condemnation anyway. Also those referred to in Romans 2:7 do not have the option of living according to the spirit, because they do not have the new nature (or spirit) indwelling, having not been born from above through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

Thank you (interesting)
In Christ Jesus
Chris

If they did not have the option, they would not have been seeking immortality.
Every christian I know, does not seek immortality either. They are waiting for a 3rd dimensional "Rapture" or waiting to 'Die and go to Heaven'.
"And the Lord shall send a strong delusion . . "

 

[complete]

If they did not have the option, they would not have been seeking immortality.
Every christian I know, does not seek immortality either. They are waiting for a 3rd dimensional "Rapture" sor waiting to 'Die and go to Heaven'.
"And the Lord shall send a strong delusion . . "

Hello @Merlin,

They believed in God, but had no knowledge of the gospel of God in Christ Jesus. They sought to please Him in the only way they knew how, by their works: and God will judge them by their works ( Romans 2:6-8) .

The subject of the rapture is one which would require another thread in order to discuss it properly, and to prevent the derailing of this one.
Thank you for your time and consideration of this subject, for it is promoting interesting discussion.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Merlin]

Hello @Merlin,

They believed in God, but had no knowledge of the gospel of God in Christ Jesus. They sought to please Him in the only way they knew how, by their works: and God will judge them by their works ( Romans 2:6-8) .

The subject of the rapture is one which would require another thread in order to discuss it properly, and to prevent the derailing of this one.
Thank you for your time and consideration of this subject, for it is promoting interesting discussion.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We've not dove into Romans 8:13 yet, are you ready?

 

[complete]

We've not dove into Romans 8:13 yet, are you ready?

' For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'
(Romans 8:13-14)

Hello @Merlin,

Yes, I will put a miner's helmet on, get a pick and shovel, and we can go down into the depths of God's word together I you would like to.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Merlin]

'
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'
(Romans 8:13-14)

Hello @Merlin,

Yes, I will put a miner's helmet on, get a pick and shovel, and we can go down into the depths of God's word together I you would like to.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Staying in the context of this thread, here is my simple interpretation:
Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (Be Unclothed):
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live"(Be Clothed Upon).

 

[complete]

Staying in the context of this thread, here is my simple interpretation:
Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (Be Unclothed):
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live"(Be Clothed Upon).

Hello @Merlin,

The argument that Paul is engaged in here in Romans 8 is concerning the two natures in the child of God, and is summarised in verses 12-14:-

'Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'

'Mortify' or 'put to death' is the equivalent of Romans 6:11 where the believer is urged to reckon himself as 'dead indeed unto sin' ... and as being, 'alive unto God', and Colossians 3:5 is teaching the same thing. The believer is not asked to work his 'crucifixion' (mortification) out in his own strength, but to count on what God has already done to the old nature (ie., he is to reckon it as dead). When this is obeyed he can have the joy of divine leading in his daily life, because 'those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God'.

'The body is dead' in the sense that it is subject to death resulting from sin. The believer now has the spirit of the risen Christ indwelling him and this is itself a foretaste of the sure and certain hope that will be realised when in actual resurrection he will have a body fashioned like 'the body of His glory' (Phil. 3:20-21) when he will be clothed with the permanent 'house from heaven' (2 Corinthians 5:`-4). Then he will experience' the redemption of the body' of Romans 8:23.

I hope this makes sense, for yet again I find myself at the wrong end of the day for concentration.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Merlin]

Hello @Merlin,

The argument that Paul is engaged in here in Romans 8 is concerning the two natures in the child of God, and is summarised in verses 12-14:-

'Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'

'Mortify' or 'put to death' is the equivalent of Romans 6:11 where the believer is urged to reckon himself as 'dead indeed unto sin' ... and as being, 'alive unto God', and Colossians 3:5 is teaching the same thing. The believer is not asked to work his 'crucifixion' (mortification) out in his own strength, but to count on what God has already done to the old nature (ie., he is to reckon it as dead). When this is obeyed he can have the joy of divine leading in his daily life, because 'those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God'.

'The body is dead' in the sense that it is subject to death resulting from sin. The believer now has the spirit of the risen Christ indwelling him and this is itself a foretaste of the sure and certain hope that will be realised when in actual resurrection he will have a body fashioned like 'the body of His glory' (Phil. 3:20-21) when he will be clothed with the permanent 'house from heaven' (2 Corinthians 5:`-4). Then he will experience' the redemption of the body' of Romans 8:23.

I hope this makes sense, for yet again I find myself at the wrong end of the day for concentration.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Let me make it really easy -
All on the right are synonymous by association, as those on the left:
The Bride VS The W.h.o.r.e (Rev 17-19)
Five Wise Virgins VS Five Foolish Virgins
Immortals VS Mortals
Zion VS Babylon
Spiritual VS Carnal
Life VS Death
New Man VS Old Man
Christ VS Adam

On and on . . fill in your own Biblical Polarities

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Chris,

nearly a year ago, this thread finished getting posts.

'Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'

'Mortify' or 'put to death' is the equivalent of Romans 6:11 where the believer is urged to reckon himself as 'dead indeed unto sin' ... and as being, 'alive unto God', and Colossians 3:5 is teaching the same thing. The believer is not asked to work his 'crucifixion' (mortification) out in his own strength, but to count on what God has already done to the old nature (ie., he is to reckon it as dead). When this is obeyed he can have the joy of divine leading in his daily life, because 'those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God'.

I think we can overlook the 'state' of man as being dead in trespass and sin. Before we receive the adoption, we have the sentence of death upon us, our lives, even though we still live and do, are merely passing time leading up to the final moment of the death that is the wages of sin.

Perhaps the Apostle was saying that if we count ourselves as dead, as in mortify the deeds of the body, because it profits us nothing, we can/shall live. I realise that we can't live through works of 'mortifying the deeds of the flesh, etc' and that it is only by entering in through the Door, Jesus Christ, that life is ours. (as you pointed out - as Scripture tells us) but i suppose the point i am trying to make is that we are already dead before we receive the life of Christ.

In the same way, we are as Adam and Eve, after taking the fruit and eating... we are found naked, or unclothed in our sin, and may i say, because of it?
I talk as what we were and what certainly we are, without Christ... but we can rejoice in the life we now live!


Bless you ....><>

 

[complete]

Greetings Chris,

nearly a year ago, this thread finished getting posts.

I think we can overlook the 'state' of man as being dead in trespass and sin. Before we receive the adoption, we have the sentence of death upon us, our lives, even though we still live and do, are merely passing time leading up to the final moment of the death that is the wages of sin.

Perhaps the Apostle was saying that if we count ourselves as dead, as in mortify the deeds of the body, because it profits us nothing, we can/shall live. I realise that we can't live through works of 'mortifying the deeds of the flesh, etc' and that it is only by entering in through the Door, Jesus Christ, that life is ours. (as you pointed out - as Scripture tells us) but i suppose the point i am trying to make is that we are already dead before we receive the life of Christ.

In the same way, we are as Adam and Eve, after taking the fruit and eating... we are found naked, or unclothed in our sin, and may i say, because of it?
I talk as what we were and what certainly we are, without Christ... but we can rejoice in the life we now live!


Bless you ....><>

'But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies
by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(Rom 8:11-13)

Hello @Br. Bear,

Br. Bear said:-
I think we can overlook the 'state' of man as being dead in trespass and sin. Before we receive the adoption, we have the sentence of death upon us, our lives, even though we still live and do, are merely passing time leading up to the final moment of the death that is the wages of sin.

* Would you please explain this further for me. I need to be sure that I am understanding you.

Br. Bear said:-
Perhaps the Apostle was saying that if we count ourselves as dead, as in mortify the deeds of the body, because it profits us nothing, we can/shall live. I realise that we can't live through works of 'mortifying the deeds of the flesh, etc' and that it is only by entering in through the Door, Jesus Christ, that life is ours. (as you pointed out - as Scripture tells us) but i suppose the point i am trying to make is that we are already dead before we receive the life of Christ.

* Yes, again I agree that before we receive the life of Christ we are indeed still dead in trespasses and sins.

Br. Bear said:-
In the same way, we are as Adam and Eve, after taking the fruit and eating... we are found naked, or unclothed in our sin, and may i say, because of it?
I talk as what we were and what certainly we are, without Christ... but we can rejoice in the life we now live!

* Yes, interesting illustration, Br. Bear. Thought provoking too.
* By reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God, we are mortifying the deeds of the body, and thereby able to walk in newness of life before the Father, unshackled by the graveclothes that would hinder our progress, or deaden our joy in the Lord.

May I just thank you for responding to this thread as you have, and for being the instrument of opening my eyes to another dimension of truth, that I had not seen before concerning Adam and Eve and their unclothed state. I value your input very much Br. Bear.

With love in Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(Rom 8:11-13)

* By reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God, we are mortifying the deeds of the body

Yes, this is the key. If we keep living in the flesh, we will die. If we deny ourselves, and stand firm against sin (mortify the deeds of the body)
Then.. (and only then) you shall live.

What are the deeds of he flesh?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[B-A-C]

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

2Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

I wonder, what do you think "this house" or "this tent" that we are currently in means?

Rev 3:15; I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16; ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17; ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev 3:18; I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

What do you think the nakedness of the people in this church (who are still alive in this passage) means. What are the white robes they need?

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Chris,

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1Corinthians 10:17

 

[Br. Bear]

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:8-16

 

[complete]

2Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

I wonder, what do you think "this house" or "this tent" that we are currently in means?

Hello @B-A-C,

I believe that the words, 'this house,' or, 'this tent', refers to our present earthly bodies.

B-A-C,
You have quoted from Revelation 3:15-18, and ask the questions:-
1) What do you think the nakedness of the people in this church (who are still alive in this passage) means?
2) What are the white robes they need?

Also from Revelation 7:13-14, asking the questions:-
1) “These who are clothed in the white robes," who are they?
2) and where have they come from?”

* I would prefer to consider these two references from the book of Revelation in a separate thread: because, 1) it could derail this present thread, and also 2) because there is much to be considered, I believe, in regard to both portions of Scripture.

* I will start a thread asap. B-A-C.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

That what is referred to here as an unclothed state, is the state of death itself. For what Paul wished to avoid was dying prior to the Lord's return, for his expectation was to be clothed upon with a resurrection body, and be with the Lord, which required the Lord's physical presence.

* I would prefer to consider these two references from the book of Revelation in a separate thread: because, 1) it could derail this present thread, and also 2) because there is much to be considered, I believe, in regard to both portions of Scripture.

* I will start a thread asap. B-A-C.

We can certainly have another thread, but I confess, I find it interesting that you make a statement about nakedness being "the state of death itself".
Then when scripture is given about saints being "naked" you say this will derail this thread. ??

 

[Br. Bear]

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Isaiah 61:10-11

I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:2

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zechariah 3:3-5

Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.
Romans 13:14

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful.

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:12-17