works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Works "of the law". I wonder why it specifically separates those from all good works in general?

Works of the Law meant you had to do All of these laws correctly in order to qualify

As you said .....
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are created (in Christ) for good works.... so that we walk in them.

This would be After Salvation

Philippians 2:13
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

The works Seperated apart from the law would still incorporate that man has earned or worked for his salvation and that is just not true.

James 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

The obvious answer is... no.

Don't confuse the issue
This is not referring to Salvation.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Were I still living under the Mosaic Law, I could.

No offense meant but you are only fooling yourself.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

did the thief on the cross have any works?? no

works are for rewards, works are definatley a sighn that you are saved but not all saved people will have works. and no repentance is not works

Amen!
Opening our mouth to speak is not works in the Biblical context of salvation - however for some it will take work to keep it shut. Lol

Works do earn or qualify us for rewards in Heaven.

Works Are Required for Faith to be Genuine Biblical Faith.

Works or Requirements are necessary to release the promises of God into our lives.

Repentance is not works unto salvation.
Repentance is HUMBLING yourself before God.

Blessing to you Brother

 

[At Peace]

Greetings,
Nothing in this Reply is written in a harsh tone nor do I wish to display any disrespect to anyone.
It's not that I am not understanding the scriptures that you provide, the way that you are making them apply is what I am not in agreement with.

You seem to believe that these scriptures claim it's all been done and if you repented truly then that's it, nothing left to do and poof you now can't sin.
That's by passing Growth. That's going from newborn to mature Christian just because you read something and believe it says so.

If a man who was previously a sinner has been given everything he needs to remain faithful-pure, why do you assume growth will further enable him to remain faithful and pure?
The purity is the result of the seed from which God's children were reborn of. (1 John 3:9)

The Power that sin had over you.
The power of the old nature over you.
Has Been Broken.
This is what being crucified with Christ did for you.

This means you can now grow and overcome these things.
This means you will have to grow to over come these things.

As the power of sin has already been broken, why would I need my own power or experience to continue on in purity?
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If I have been given the "escapes" from temptation, by God, and the promise that I won't be tempted above my ability, why do you think "growth" will cause me to better resist temptation?

You boast that you have no sin for 14 years since being born again, yet unless some one agrees with how you think, you insist they are wrong and not saved and so forth . If they read anything other then the KJV you quickly make it known how wrong that is, according to what you believe.
That attitude falls under self or flesh.

You see the testimony of the work of God in a man's life as "boasting".
I see wickedness and torment from your own filthy conscience.
That wasn't written with a "harsh tone" or "disrespect", but with the Spirit of God and the hope of your future turn from sin.

I am sure you don't get drunk or cheat on your spouse or kill and so forth. Good , even the lost do that.
Sin goes way beyond the 10 commandments.
Don't get me Wrong - I am not lashing out - and mean no disrespect
Philippians 2:13
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
This means you don't go from unsaved to reborn and sinless pleasing God just because it is written.

"Just because it is written"...hmmm, your faith in scripture is sure suspect now.

There are vast number of scriptures that become false with this thinking that because your flesh was crucified with Christ that you now can't or don't sin.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
This means now through Christ you can LEARN how to take dominion over sin. This does not say it's already done and you do nothing.

You postulate that we are still under law.
You postulate that growth will allow us to be under grace.
So...how much "growth" will be enough?

GRACE.... through Grace or Through Christ you now HAVE The Authority and Power to Over Come the Flesh or self centered old nature.

Why not use what we HAVE?

Please don't quote 1 Corinthians 10:13 any more to me in backing Romans 6:14
Not ALL sin is a temptation.

No sin is a temptation.
But temptation leads to sin. (James 1:14-15)
And with God's escapes from temptation we can live without sin.

I would also like to say that the kjv is not the only true version to read.
In Fact one should not just read the kjv.

Is the reason for your disdain of the KJV because you want to keep committing sin and the newer versions muddy the waters enough to allow it?

Jesus did not talk with this old English dialect and it too has been translated to better fit a culture of that time.
Scholars say that the kjv and nlv come closest to the original writings.
That does not make other versions false .

So why castigate the KJV?

Note I would not read any of the newer translated versions but those older version copies are well worth the read. In Fact it will HELP in understanding God's Most Holy Written Word.
Again nothing in this reply is written with a harsh tone or anger or frustration.
It's simply a written reply in Peace and in Love and Joy and a little phone.
Blessings to you and have a very joyfully blessed week!

As you have established that you "might" need to grow some more before being a non-sinner, I politely refuse to believe your bold lettering is written in truth..

 

[At Peace]

This first part I disagree with.
Saying works has nothing to do with salvation is like saying courting has nothing to do with marriage.
Salvation is a marriage that we cannot organize. It is paid for, ready and waiting for a chosen bride.

James 4:8 Draw near to me and (then) I will draw near to you. It then specifies what we need to do to draw near to God 'Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded'.

I find this verse interesting because it is saying, we 'can' wash our hands.

True, if the "we" are the double-minded.

 

[At Peace]

No offense meant but you are only fooling yourself.

You left out the rest of my post.
Why?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If a man who was previously a sinner has been given everything he needs to remain faithful-pure, why do you assume growth will further enable him to remain faithful and pure?
The purity is the result of the seed from which God's children were reborn of. (1 John 3:9)

Its not me you are arguing with but Gods Word.

These are but a few Scriptures that get violated by that what you say.
2 Peter 3:18
Hebrews 6:1
Colossians 2:6-7
1 Peter 2:2-3

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

As the power of sin has already been broken, why would I need my own power or experience to continue on in purity?
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If I have been given the "escapes" from temptation, by God, and the promise that I won't be tempted above my ability, why do you think "growth" will cause me to better resist temptation?

That is not what I said. Man we do need to pay attention to how you reply.

I said
The Power that sin had over you.
The power of the old nature over you.
Has Been Broken.
This is what being crucified with Christ did for you.

This means you can now grow and overcome these things.
This means you will have to grow to over come these things.

Its all done through Christ within you. You do the work.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You see the testimony of the work of God in a man's life as "boasting".
I see wickedness and torment from your own filthy conscience.
That wasn't written with a "harsh tone" or "disrespect", but with the Spirit of God and the hope of your future turn from sin.

Really that's your answer ?
Sounds like pride a bit doesn't it?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

"Just because it is written"...hmmm, your faith in scripture is sure suspect now.

Why not respond to the entire text instead of taking a sliver of it and making a mockery of it?

Yes just because something is written in the word of God does not make it automatically manifest in ones life.

We need to do our part

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You postulate that we are still under law.
You postulate that growth will allow us to be under grace.
So...how much "growth" will be enough?

Here is what this reply was to.
(There are vast number of scriptures that become false with this thinking that because your flesh was crucified with Christ that you now can't or don't sin.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
This means now through Christ you can LEARN how to take dominion over sin. This does not say it's already done and you do nothing.)

Why does your reply say I said things that were not said?
Why do you do this?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

No sin is a temptation.
But temptation leads to sin. (James 1:14-15)
And with God's escapes from temptation we can live without sin.

No Brother NOT all sin is a temptation nor does all sin start from temptation

 

[Robb]

The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Rom 7, and its proximity to Rom 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is illustrating the past-present transition, and Rom 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.


Paul is saying he was the worst of the now saved.
Why?
Because he persecuted the church!
Do you think he still was persecuting Christians?

Romans 7 debunks sinless perfectionism in my mind. He is talking about his struggles as a believer. It makes no sense that Paul was taking about his former self. The bible says that unbeliever are slave to sin (Ro 6:20), dead in sin (Eph 2:1), blinded by satan (2 Cor 4:4), don't understand the things of god (1 Cor 2:14), haters of god (Ro 1:30) and don't seek god (Ro 3:11). If Paul is talking about his past life here then why does he desire to do good? Romasn 7:19 says: For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” Unbelievers do not desire to do good. In verse 22 Paul says he delights in the law of god. Unbelievers do not delight in gods law. In verse 25 he says the answer to his struggles is believe in Jesus. That he serves the law of god with his mind but the law of sin with his flesh. This is referring to his current life and not his former life. He never served the law of god. Only nonbelievers do not struggle with sin, believers do struggle with sin. The flesh is at war with the spirit in us and we will get new bodies without sin in them when we are in heaven.

Galations 5:16-17 KJV -
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

This is talking to Christians that currently have sinful flesh. Our bodies are not made new, our mind is and our hearts are changed to desire to be sinless.

Sinless perfectionism denies the doctrine of sanctification.

1 Cor 3:1-3 - KJV (Paul calls believers carnal.)
"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2 Peter 3:18 - KJV (Growing in Christ, we are not like Christ yet)
"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Philippians 1:6 - KJV
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Romans 12:1-2
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

No one can tame the tongue James says, no one includes christians: James 3:8 - KJV
"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

Jesus came for sinners Mt 9:13. You believe you can lose your salvation, I don't think we can because if we could lose it we would lose it. No one measures up to gods standards. You haven't either. Have you loved god perfectly, have you had a sinful thought in the last 14 years? We have a savior.

 

[Robb]

He did evil when he was still in the flesh, a Pharisee trying-unsuccessfully to live up to the Law.
The portion of Rom. 7 that folks use to accuse Paul of sin is written in the "present-historical" or "present-narrative" tense.
He is writing from the perspective of still being there, though he isn't any longer in the flesh, or a Pharisee.

See post 73.

 

[Robb]

I have the same love in my heart for the sinner as Jesus did.
We are one.

Wow, but the moment you don't then you are not saved? How is this good news? People that have self reflection know they have sinned and not loved others as they should.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@At Peace
I said
I would also like to say that the kjv is not the only true version to read.
In Fact one should not just read the kjv.

You said
Is the reason for your disdain of the KJV because you want to keep committing sin and the newer versions muddy the waters enough to allow it?

Now I say
Wow how do you say things like this?
You speak no truth in that.

I said
Jesus did not talk with this old English dialect and it too has been translated to better fit a culture of that time.
Scholars say that the kjv and nlv come closest to the original writings.
That does not make other versions false .
Click to expand...
You said
So why castigate the KJV?

Now I say I don't. In fact I use it along side many others

I said
Note I would not read any of the newer translated versions but those older version copies are well worth the read. In Fact it will HELP in understanding God's Most Holy Written Word.
Again nothing in this reply is written with a harsh tone or anger or frustration.
It's simply a written reply in Peace and in Love and Joy and a little phone.
Blessings to you and have a very joyfully blessed week!
Click to expand...

You say
As you have established that you "might" need to grow some more before being a non-sinner, I politely refuse to believe your bold lettering is written in truth..

Now I say
Say what?
Now your just getting off track

 

[Robb]

1. He drew near to Jesus. He could have kept quiet or insulted Him. But he chose to speak up in defense of Jesus. Acknowledge a wrong. Also as BAC said, he acknowledged his sin too and surely must have repented.

2. Good works show you desire what is good / would desire repentance. But if God does not draw near to us, it is because our heart is not sufficiently in it. This is why I question the sincerity of any God fearing / good person who has not met Jesus. James 1:27 says 'religion undefiled' is to look after widows and orphans in need. Also just consider how God chose Abraham. He scoured the earth for a good man. How did he know he was a good man? When God says of David '' there is a am I can use for anything (IE even accept Jesus) '', what works was David doing?

The father draws us to him, he doesn't wait until we draw to him. In fact we can't as unbelievers. Jesus said:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6:44.

 

[KingJ]

The father draws us to him, he doesn't wait until we draw to him. In fact we can't as unbelievers. Jesus said:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6:44.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

The verse you quoting speaks to the second part of James 4:8. We can draw near to God, doesn't mean He will draw near to us. It speaks to us drawing near to Him with false motives. Not that we cannot draw near to Him. God judges mind and heart at a level no human can Jer 17:9-10.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@At Peace

One can not build a doctrine around a single scripture.

If one uses a scripture to make a point and there are other Scriptures that say different then the way one is using a particular scripture is violating other scripture.

This means the original scripture is being used in error.

I say this because you keep using the same scriptures to back your claim even though other Scriptures have been given to you by many that show your use is in error.

Blessings to you

 

[Robb]

James 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

The verse you quoting speaks to the second part of James 4:8. We can draw near to God, doesn't mean He will draw near to us. It speaks to us drawing near to Him with false motives. Not that we cannot draw near to Him. God judges mind and heart at a level no human can Jer 17:9-10.

No, Jn 6:44 says the exact opposite of what James 4:8 says. James is writing to Christians (2:1 and 5:7). James 4:8 is written in the context of Christians struggling with worldliness. As a Christian we should draw close to god so we can walk in his spirit. Jn 6:44 is talking about salvation of the non- Christian. Non Christians do not seek god, god seeks them.