works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[At Peace]

This is an honest question, to you what is sin?

"All unrighteousness is sin" is John's, and my, explanation. (1 John 5:17)
And I consider it unrighteous to NOT help the needy.

 

[At Peace]

ESV is not an interpretation. It is a more word for word translation than others. But that is another discussion.

AND it allows folks to sin and THINK they got away with something God hates.

Because our sin nature cannot be removed until we get new bodies. Our flesh is sinful.[/QUOTE]
You have forgotten about our rebirth.
To be reborn we must first kill the old man...with it's nature.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
All things includes the nature.

I am not committed to continued sin. I never said that. I just am honest with myself and with the text that we still sin.

If you were committed to a life without sin, God would open your eyes to the plentiful corruption of scriptural interpretation used to keep sinners calling themselves 'servants of God'

Please answer this, When Paul says he sins in Romans 7:19-20, was he saved at this point?

Yes, he was ready for a judgement that would have provided eternal life.
The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Rom 7, and its proximity to Rom 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is illustrating the past-present transition, and Rom 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.

and
"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." 1 Tim 1:15 - ESV.
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." - KJV
Here Paul says he is the chief sinner, not past but present tense. Was Paul not saved when he wrote this?

Paul is saying he was the worst of the now saved.
Why?
Because he persecuted the church!
Do you think he still was persecuting Christians?

Can you apply your POV that Paul still committed sin to these following verses?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)
And this from the author of Hebrews?
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

We can all live without sin.

 

[At Peace]

Paul says differently. Paul did evil he did not want to do. Romans 7:19-20

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. - KJV

He did evil when he was still in the flesh, a Pharisee trying-unsuccessfully to live up to the Law.
The portion of Rom. 7 that folks use to accuse Paul of sin is written in the "present-historical" or "present-narrative" tense.
He is writing from the perspective of still being there, though he isn't any longer in the flesh, or a Pharisee.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

To be reborn we must first kill the old man...with it's nature.

No Sir!!
That is totally backwards.
No one can kill the old man until they are born again.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

"All unrighteousness is sin" is John's, and my, explanation. (1 John 5:17)
And I consider it unrighteous to NOT help the needy.

So then what do you consider to be the unrighteousness that you have not done in 14 years?

Blessings to you

 

[At Peace]

No Sir!!
That is totally backwards.
No one can kill the old man until they are born again.

According to Peter, in Acts 2:38, we "turn from" sin, then get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, wherein is the killing the old man, (Rom 6:6), and then are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
At no time are there two of me/you.

 

[At Peace]

So then what do you consider to be the unrighteousness that you have not done in 14 years?

Blessings to you

Too long a list.
Let's say "drunkenness" and leave it at that.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

According to Peter, in Acts 2:38, we "turn from" sin, then get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, wherein is the killing the old man, (Rom 6:6), and then are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
At no time are there two of me/you.

Have no clue what you mean two of me or two of you.

Certainly not saying that your old man was removed.

Repenting or turning from sin is Not the same as our sin nature being removed but then it's not ever removed but overcome.

When we become born again and baptized into Christ the POWER of sin over us is broken. This means we now can through Christ begin to feed the Spirit and starve the flesh and begin to learn to walk in the Spirit.

Yeah I know you believe it was all done and you did not have to learn or Grow and so forth.
That's just not how it works.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Too long a list.
Let's say "drunkenness" and leave it at that.

No Sir, lol
You say you got born again and never sinned again.
So if Jesus was standing here and said you that has no sin may cast the first stone, you could pick up a stone and throw it???

 

[Dave M]

"All unrighteousness is sin" is John's, and my, explanation. (1 John 5:17)
And I consider it unrighteous to NOT help the needy.

so by your own admission not helping the needy is unrighteousness and a sin, so when a needy person comes on here and request a prayer and you do not respond have you sinned??

 

[At Peace]

Have no clue what you mean two of me or two of you.
Certainly not saying that your old man was removed.
Repenting or turning from sin is Not the same as our sin nature being removed but then it's not ever removed but overcome.
When we become born again and baptized into Christ the POWER of sin over us is broken. This means we now can through Christ begin to feed the Spirit and starve the flesh and begin to learn to walk in the Spirit.

Yeah I know you believe it was all done and you did not have to learn or Grow and so forth.
That's just not how it works.

Blessings to you

Did you also "have no clue" to the scriptures I included?
And why don't you have any scriptures to lean on?
My old self, with it's nature, were crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

Your POV calls for a "new" man, who is still fighting against an "old" man
If your old man is dead, why is it still fighting back against the Spiritual-reborn man?.
BTW, I still pray to grow in grace and knowledge.
But it is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Even as a new Christian, without any knowledge, I have been given the escapes from temptation to allow a complete walk with God.
Thanks be to God!

 

[At Peace]

No Sir, lol
You say you got born again and never sinned again.
So if Jesus was standing here and said you that has no sin may cast the first stone, you could pick up a stone and throw it???

Were I still living under the Mosaic Law, I could.
But I'm not.
I have the same love in my heart for the sinner as Jesus did.
We are one.

 

[At Peace]

so by your own admission not helping the needy is unrighteousness and a sin, so when a needy person comes on here and request a prayer and you do not respond have you sinned??

If I refuse to pray for someone it would be for some unrighteous reason.
It would be a sin.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

did you also "have no clue" to the scriptures I included?
And why don't you have any scriptures to lean on?
My old self, with it's nature, were crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Greetings,
Nothing in this Reply is written in a harsh tone nor do I wish to display any disrespect to anyone.

It's not that I am not understanding the scriptures that you provide, the way that you are making them apply is what I am not in agreement with.

You seem to believe that these scriptures claim it's all been done and if you repented truly then that's it, nothing left to do and poof you now can't sin.
That's by passing Growth. That's going from newborn to mature Christian just because you read something and believe it says so.

The Power that sin had over you.
The power of the old nature over you.
Has Been Broken.
This is what being crucified with Christ did for you.

This means you can now grow and overcome these things.
This means you will have to grow to over come these things.

You boast that you have no sin for 14 years since being born again, yet unless some one agrees with how you think, you insist they are wrong and not saved and so forth . If they read anything other then the KJV you quickly make it known how wrong that is, according to what you believe.
That attitude falls under self or flesh.

I am sure you don't get drunk or cheat on your spouse or kill and so forth. Good , even the lost do that.

Sin goes way beyond the 10 commandments.

Don't get me Wrong - I am not lashing out - and mean no disrespect

Philippians 2:13
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

This means you don't go from unsaved to reborn and sinless pleasing God just because it is written.

There are vast number of scriptures that become false with this thinking that because your flesh was crucified with Christ that you now can't or don't sin.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This means now through Christ you can LEARN how to take dominion over sin. This does not say it's already done and you do nothing.

GRACE.... through Grace or Through Christ you now HAVE The Authority and Power to Over Come the Flesh or self centered old nature.

Please don't quote 1 Corinthians 10:13 any more to me in backing Romans 6:14
Not ALL sin is a temptation.

I would also like to say that the kjv is not the only true version to read.
In Fact one should not just read the kjv.

Jesus did not talk with this old English dialect and it too has been translated to better fit a culture of that time.

Scholars say that the kjv and nlv come closest to the original writings.
That does not make other versions false .

Note I would not read any of the newer translated versions but those older version copies are well worth the read. In Fact it will HELP in understanding God's Most Holy Written Word.

Again nothing in this reply is written with a harsh tone or anger or frustration.
It's simply a written reply in Peace and in Love and Joy and a little phone.

Blessings to you and have a very joyfully blessed week!

 

[KingJ]

works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

This first part I disagree with.

Saying works has nothing to do with salvation is like saying courting has nothing to do with marriage.

Salvation is a marriage that we cannot organize. It is paid for, ready and waiting for a chosen bride.

James 4:8 Draw near to me and (then) I will draw near to you. It then specifies what we need to do to draw near to God 'Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded'.

I find this verse interesting because it is saying, we 'can' wash our hands.

 

[Dave M]

This first part I disagree with.

Saying works has nothing to do with salvation is like saying courting has nothing to do with marriage.

Salvation is a marriage that we cannot organize. It is paid for, ready and waiting for a chosen bride.

James 4:8 Draw near to me and (then) I will draw near to you. It then specifies what we need to do to draw near to God 'Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded'.

I find this verse interesting because it is saying, we 'can' wash our hands.

did the thief on the cross have any works?? no

works are for rewards, works are definatley a sighn that you are saved but not all saved people will have works. and no repentance is not works IMO

you are speaking a of a works based salvation whear we have to be good enough to earn our way to heaven and that is not true we will never be good enough that is why we need grace

salvation is grace only
works is rewards a privileged that not all saved people will have

 

[B-A-C]

did the thief on the cross have any works?? no

On the other hand, he never sinned after this either.

Luke 23:41; "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
Luke 23:42; And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

He admitted he was a sinner in a need of a savior. He acknowledged who Jesus was. He ever admitted Jesus "had done nothing wrong"
and didn't deserve this. He confessed Jesus with his mouth before men.

 

[KingJ]

1. did the thief on the cross have any works?? no

2. and no repentance is not works IMO

3. you are speaking a of a works based salvation whear we have to be good enough to earn our way to heaven and that is not true we will never be good enough that is why we need grace

4. salvation is grace only
works is rewards a privileged that not all saved people will have

1. He drew near to Jesus. He could have kept quiet or insulted Him. But he chose to speak up in defense of Jesus. Acknowledge a wrong. Also as BAC said, he acknowledged his sin too and surely must have repented.

2. Good works show you desire what is good / would desire repentance. But if God does not draw near to us, it is because our heart is not sufficiently in it. This is why I question the sincerity of any God fearing / good person who has not met Jesus. James 1:27 says 'religion undefiled' is to look after widows and orphans in need. Also just consider how God chose Abraham. He scoured the earth for a good man. How did he know he was a good man? When God says of David '' there is a am I can use for anything (IE even accept Jesus) '', what works was David doing?

3. I am not. Works are needed to get salvation. Works are not salvation. Salvation is something separate. Salvation is being taken from Abrahams bosom to heaven. The people in the OT had to get themselves to Abrahams Bosom.

4. I am not suggesting you are wrong. I am sure if we spoke long we will agree. I just want us to agree that it is a delicate subject. We cannot be 1% off. If we are too much on the side of free grace we run into a Calvinistic belief. If works based salvation, we end up supporting any religion. The truth is neither of these. The truth is simply, we draw near to God / come to Him on His terms and conditions, He then grafts us in / saves us.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Let's let Scripture Answer it.
After that there should be no questioning.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:27-28
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

For a believer, works ARE Required for Everything of God AFTER THE GIFT OF SALVATION.
Without Faith we can not please God and we know Faith is always followed by a corresponding action (WORKS)

GIFTS are given
Salvation was Bought for us and freely given as a Gift to man.

PROMISES of God require Action on our part or another words we must meet tje Requirements to access them. (Works By or Through Faith)

Blessings to you

 

[B-A-C]

Eph 2:8-9; gets tossed around a lot. But everyone leaves out the next verse.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are created (in Christ) for good works.... so that we walk in them.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I notice almost all of these other verses say.. "works of the law". Not all works. works of the law.

James 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

The obvious answer is... no.

James 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Matt 5:16; Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 9:4; We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 14:12; Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Works "of the law". I wonder why it specifically separates those from all good works in general?

Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

As opposed to works "not of the law".

1 Tim 2:9; Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Tim 6:17; Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Titus 2:7; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,

Titus 3:8; This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

1 Pet 2:12; Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

James 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
James 1:23; For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
James 1:24; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.