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works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Dave M, Apr 3, 2018.

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  1. One thing that was hard for me to grasp was the fact that we simply are not good enough to work our way to heaven and no matter what we do it was not good enough to get to heaven, it is all by the grace of God we are saved.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    So as soon as I finally get a handle on it all God and by his grace I am saved and I can not work my way into heaven along comes faith without works is dead
    James 2:26

    . if you receive grace it changes you, once you become born again you will produce fruit (works). So born again Christians will produce works not because they have to, but because that's what they do. Jesus tells us these works if done in the right frame of mind and I have to believe most who are born again will do them in the right frame of mind will bring eternal rewards that will last forever.
    Matthew 6:1-4
    Colossians 3:23-24
    Matthew 16:27
    Matthew 25:21

    so for the most part there seems to be a direct relationship between works and salvation, but understanding works has nothing to do with salvation is the important point to grasp, further more salvation does produce works, but works does not produce salvation.

  2. It would be remiss of us not to remind folks that evil "works" will cause the lack of eternal life with God.
    Pitifully, some have described repentance, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, and continued obedience to God as "works".
    So they dismiss these necessary things as actually being against grace.
    Most of the times Paul wrote of "works", he was referencing the "works" of the law of Moses...especially circumcision and dietary laws.
    Adhering to them will not get one to heaven.
  3. Hi Brother @Dave M
    What or how I have come to grasp this is quite simple.

    Outside of being born again works are very much a requirement.

    Faith is always followed by a corresponding action (works)
    We are governed by kingdom law, another words we will always have our part to do in order to release the promises of God.

    What we are given by Grace must be accessed or obtained by Faith and your Faith will require works.

    So other then being born again, works is a necessity in a believers life.

    I hope this makes sense.
    Sent from a mobile device
  4. That's right and as James said it: if your faith is alive, you will have works!
    Wired 4 Fishen and Dave M like this.
  5. you know those on there death bed or the thief on the cross are (were) saved with out doing any works when they came (come) to Christ at the last hour of there life, so they have salvation but it does not appear they have any treasures waiting for them.

    not all will be equal in heaven it appears there is the least
    Matthew 11:11
    Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he
    Wired 4 Fishen likes this.
  6. Can you explain how so? Aren't evil works just sin? Or do you mean something else by this.
  7. I won't presume to speak for "@At Peace" here. But I have a question for you.
    Are you saying sin doesn't matter? Because we are "Christians" we can sin all we want, and it doesn't affect where we spend eternity?
  8. I am not making any such claim. I am simply asking At Peace to clarify what they said. I did not understand what "evil works" are and how is it different than sin.

    I would also like to ask At Peace and you if you want to answer how many evil works will forfeit your eternal life with God?
  9. I will answer the second question first, likely he and I would give different answers about "how much" you can sin. But we both agree there is a limit.
    He and I have had this discussion at length a few times. In any case we both agree that "bad" works affect your salvtion.

    This works vs sin semantics comes up frequently here on TJ.

    If we take the title of this thread.... "works has nothing to do with salvation" It seems many people agree with this statement.
    But then if I say.. "OK, sin has nothing to do with salvation".. People back up and say "whoa"... even you say "I am not making any such claim".

    Well.. ok then... are (bad)works and sin really the same thing? Because if they are... and works (good or bad) have nothing to do with my salvation
    then sin has nothing to do with my salvation and everything is fair game. No rules means I can sin all I want, and still be saved.

    If on the other hand.... bad works = sin. Then either the title of this thread is incorrect... and works DO affect my salvation.
    Or else the consequences of sin is wrong, and even if we call it "sin"... I can still sin all I want, and still be saved.

    You're coming in a little late here. :) Most of this has been discussed many times over the years here on TJ.
    But it seems there are still quite a few points of view here. Here are a few...

    1. We can sin all we want, because well... "works have nothing to do with salvation".
    2. We can't sin at all.... because "works have EVERYTHING to do with salvation".
    3. There is a "before" and "after". We can't do any (good works) to get saved initially... but once we are saved (evil works) can keep us from eternity in heaven.
    This line of talk usually ends in OSAS (once saved, always saved) discussion and the moderators sometimes tend to close the thread, because the discussion gets heated.

    There are a few other points of view also... but it seems these are the predominant ones that usually come up.
    amadeus2 and Wired 4 Fishen like this.
  10. That's a question that can not be answered with a number.

    To forfeit our salvation or eternal life with God takes one to walk away or turn away and reject God or the Holy Spirits correction.

    One can resist the Holy Spirit to the place where He will leave you and you are given unto your desires or own free will.

    Scripture tells us Jesus will never leave us and He won't let us be snatched out of His hand.

    This pertains to those who are walking in His ways. Before you read into this anything understand this does not say perfect or without mistakes.
    God looks to the heart of man and if we are truly doing what we know to do with the level of Light we have then God is Pleased and continues to work in us.

    Now there is the other matter.
    Those who refuse correction.
    Those who hear the Holy Spirit and make the choice that they don't care and continues in their ways, these are on shaking ground.

    Eventually God will Allow them to have it their way fore He won't force anyone to love and obey Him.

    Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks directly to this

    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    This does not say they can not repent but the chances of this by the time they reach this point is slim. They have to come to themselves realising they made Thee worst choice ever and turn back to God.

    The problem there is once the Holy Spirit has left , the evil that has been influencing them now fills their heart and they are totally dwelling in deception.

    DANGER PLACE.... when a believer has allowed satan to get them to this place, he knows they are on their own and he is able to free and clear easily kill them and now they are without hope .
    Sadly hell has far to many once believers in its grip.

    Now this is when Jesus sadly will perform Matthew 7:23
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    I hope this helps
    Sent from a mobile device
    B-A-C likes this.
  11. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    If you take the two verses together, you get a fuller picture of the relationship of works and grace. Good works are God's purpose for us - we are created in Christ in order to do good works.

    The opening post talks of works as a "by-product" of salvation. It might be better to say that good works are the purpose of salvation.
    At Peace, B-A-C and Wired 4 Fishen like this.
  12. @B-A-C that not the title and is misleading to leave out the full title.
    B-A-C likes this.
  13. Fair enough....

    The title of this thread is... "works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product"

    I still don't feel that changes his question or my answer.

    If (bad) works and sin are the same thing.. (his question, not mine)... then the title gets a little tricker...

    (sin) has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product. ....... ..... Hmmmmm......
  14. "Just sin" is evil work.
    Those works will be judged at the end of time, and the doers of those evil works will end up in the lake of fire.
    We need to remind the "saved by grace not by works" crowd that as long as their works are evil they are not under grace.
    Thanks be to God for making a way to live without sin!
    amadeus2 likes this.
  15. One.
    Just like Adam and Eve.
    1 John 3:8-10 deem the servants of sin as children of the devil.
    None of those are going to heaven.
  16. Thanks be to God for making a way to kill the old man so we can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
    Christ4Ever and amadeus2 like this.
  17. Just like Adam and eve?

    Again is in reference to those who willfully sin knowing they are sinning.
    These people don't care. It's all about them.

    This is not the same as one learning and growing in Christ and developing and learning to walk in the Spirit more and more.

    Spite that you believe one jumps right into walking in the Spirit and is perfected after an initial repentence.
    Blessings to you
    Sent from a mobile device
    Dave M likes this.
  18. Exactly from my personal experience with sin and repentance I can tell you I struggled with sexual immorality and when I first repented I went the longest I ever went before but then I slipped up and it happened again but then I fasted and repented and then went the longest I ever went before slipping up, now I can not even remember when the last time I slipped up was, my point is like Jim states I was not cured over night it took constant repentance and even fasting to get to the point whear I am seldom even tempted now. And when tempted I can finally have confidence that I wont slip up.

    Now if God wants to cure someone of there sinful nature right away I am sure he can do that and have herd people claim that thats what happened to them apparently Peice say this is I am understanding him correctly, that is great for him but that is not the norm from talking to many others who are constantly maturing in the faith.

    The main reason of this thread was to point out our works our no good enough for us to earn our salvation, there fore we are saved by grace, yet works is evidence we are saved. So they are related for the most part but there are exceptions that people have no works like the thief on the cross and are still saved.
    Wired 4 Fishen likes this.
  19. Anything evil that a person does is a sin.

    If a person is doing evil works to me that says he is doing this purposely and his heart is fully behind the evil he is doing and he has no repentance.
  20. So... even though, I may "not" doing it on purpose, and my heart doesn't like it... I'm Ok doing it?
    I can still sin all I want? If I keep on doing it, did I really repent?

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