works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[KingJ]

No, Jn 6:44 says the exact opposite of what James 4:8 says. James is writing to Christians (2:1 and 5:7). James 4:8 is written in the context of Christians struggling with worldliness. As a Christian we should draw close to god so we can walk in his spirit. Jn 6:44 is talking about salvation of the non- Christian. Non Christians do not seek god, god seeks them.

Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Robb]

Are you a Calvinist?

No.

 

[Robb]

Are you a Calvinist?

I should elaborate. Anti-Calvinistic people would say I am a Calvinist but Calvinist themselves would not consider me one. I don't consider myself a Calvinist but I lean that way.

 

[KingJ]

I should elaborate. Anti-Calvinistic people would say I am a Calvinist but Calvinist themselves would not consider me one. I don't consider myself a Calvinist but I lean that way.

Ok, maybe just need to discuss more to better understand what you trying to say :wink:.

 

[KingJ]

I should elaborate. Anti-Calvinistic people would say I am a Calvinist but Calvinist themselves would not consider me one. I don't consider myself a Calvinist but I lean that way.

Just thinking more on what you have said.

James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

I could not disagree more with you saying this relates to Christians. It is a verse that can be taught to a congregation. As Paul did and would. But we cannot assume Paul believed all in attendance are Christians, albeit he referred to them all as brethren / brothers and sisters. We see in 1 Cor 5:1 that Paul identifies a brethren who does a sin that not even the unsaved do. He then tells us to not even eat with such in vs 12. So what we see is Paul having a respectful to all style of preaching. But not beating around the bush on the difference between someone who loves God / is a Christian vs someone who is not.

As for leaning toward Calvinism. You must stop that immediately :wink:. There are a few beliefs in Christianity that paint God in a bad light. I am going to be blunt. Any belief that would cause any working brain to see God as wicked, is straight from the devil. Heresy. Anti-Christian. The message we have heard about God from the beginning is that He is light, with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We now come along and say He is partial. Because of a verse like Rom 9:14 Or as some do on hell, He will torture the wicked Rev 20:10. Calvinism implies partiality from Him being omniscient. Partiality is wicked. You can literally ask any person around you to confirm that. God is not wicked

We cannot and must not fail at misrepresenting God. It is our duty on earth to be His ambassador's. We should know as David did that God is good Psalm 136:1. If any serve a wicked God, they are wicked. If any misrepresent a good God, they are wicked.

We have to grasp that God is impartial. As Peter did in Acts 10:34. It is easy to grasp omniscience and omnipotence. This does not mean we grasp God. We can literally not grasp one iota of God's existence. But we can now speak on fully grasping God? All we can grasp is what scripture says He is 1 John 1:5 and has done for us John 3:16. We cannot and must not make wicked assumptions of God and then preach it as fact. Calvinsim, evil hell, super Jew are all half truths that I am certain, make God upset.

 

[Robb]

Just thinking more on what you have said.

James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

I could not disagree more with you saying this relates to Christians. It is a verse that can be taught to a congregation. As Paul did and would. But we cannot assume Paul believed all in attendance are Christians, albeit he referred to them all as brethren / brothers and sisters. We see in 1 Cor 5:1 that Paul identifies a brethren who does a sin that not even the unsaved do. He then tells us to not even eat with such in vs 12. So what we see is Paul having a respectful to all style of preaching. But not beating around the bush on the difference between someone who loves God / is a Christian vs someone who is not.

Of course unsaved people are in the congregations, but church is not primarily for the unsaved but to equip the saved. Saved people need the gospel preached to them regularly as well. Church is so we can learn about god, fulfill the command to fellowship with believers and help one another as the bible says. James is primarily talking to Christians in this letter as well as Paul in 1 Corinthians.

As for leaning toward Calvinism. You must stop that immediately :wink:. There are a few beliefs in Christianity that paint God in a bad light. I am going to be blunt. Any belief that would cause any working brain to see God as wicked, is straight from the devil. Heresy. Anti-Christian. The message we have heard about God from the beginning is that He is light, with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We now come along and say He is partial. Because of a verse like Rom 9:14 Or as some do on hell, He will torture the wicked Rev 20:10. Calvinism implies partiality from Him being omniscient. Partiality is wicked. You can literally ask any person around you to confirm that. God is not wicked

No Calvinist sees god as wicked and I certainly do not. God shows no partiality in his judgment of sin. Did god show partiality when he chose Israel as his people? Seems so to me he did. You seem to be basing what is wicked on your standard and not the bibles standard. God says it is just for hell to exist whether you like it or not.

We cannot and must not fail at misrepresenting God. It is our duty on earth to be His ambassador's. We should know as David did that God is good Psalm 136:1. If any serve a wicked God, they are wicked. If any misrepresent a good God, they are wicked.

So if we misrepresent god are we not saved?

We have to grasp that God is impartial. As Peter did in Acts 10:34. It is easy to grasp omniscience and omnipotence. This does not mean we grasp God. We can literally not grasp one iota of God's existence. But we can now speak on fully grasping God? All we can grasp is what scripture says He is 1 John 1:5 and has done for us John 3:16. We cannot and must not make wicked assumptions of God and then preach it as fact. Calvinsim, evil hell, super Jew are all half truths that I am certain, make God upset.

What do you mean by superjew?

You say it is wicked to misrepresent god but then here you say we cannot grasp god. How can we do both? If we cannot fully grasp god as I believe as well then how do we know we are not misrepresenting him at times?

I am not a Calvinist but the bible talks about both free will to choose and predestination, I don't fully understand how it works but I trust god has it figured out. I guess I am a Calvinian.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

free will to choose and predestination

We were created to Love God and be loved by God and walk in His Ways.
God has His Plan for Man

We can freely choose to accept this or not.
Man can follow His own plan.
Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

Of course unsaved people are in the congregations, but church is not primarily for the unsaved but to equip the saved. Saved people need the gospel preached to them regularly as well. Church is so we can learn about god, fulfill the command to fellowship with believers and help one another as the bible says. James is primarily talking to Christians in this letter as well as Paul in 1 Corinthians.

That verse literally talks of an unsaved person. It says 'sinners'. Here is another verse that completely debunks Calvinism Psalm 51:17.

No Calvinist sees god as wicked and I certainly do not. God shows no partiality in his judgment of sin. Did god show partiality when he chose Israel as his people? Seems so to me he did. You seem to be basing what is wicked on your standard and not the bibles standard. God says it is just for hell to exist whether you like it or not.

Nobody listening to a Calvinist grasps God as good. I guess I should qualify that statement and say '5 point' Calvinists.

So if we misrepresent god are we not saved?

When the miss-representation is that of a wicked God, convince me on how I should arrive at another conclusion. Christianity is a belief that God is love 1 John 4:8. That God is good Psalm 136:1. That God lay His life down for us John 3:16. That God is light with no darkness at all 1 John 1:5.

In order to think otherwise, I would have to be convinced that you are blinded with good intentions. Or, you would need to make a really strong argument for partiality not being evil. The kind of argument the poor guy who lands up in hell can grasp. I propose you put yourself in that guy's shoes. Calvinism (5 pt) basically implies God knows from birth as to who will suffer in hell or reign with Him. IE He created people for hell. IE A baby could very well land up in hell. IE God is at a height of wickedness with partiality.

If hell was not a reality, partiality would not be such an issue.

What do you mean by superjew?

Another time, it's off subject

You say it is wicked to misrepresent god but then here you say we cannot grasp god. How can we do both? If we cannot fully grasp god as I believe as well then how do we know we are not misrepresenting him at times?

No. I say we need to base our assumptions of God off of what we can grasp.

It is fine to miss-represent God on Rom 14:5 type subjects. Not on, God tortures. Or God is partial. Imagine I did that to you? We should rather keep quiet if we have our doubts on such matters. By speaking up, well we are putting ourselves and our statement in the light. It is on par with me telling you about my wife for ten years, then saying she is a man. God is good. Not wicked. If you make a claim that hints at Him being, wicked. Defend it. Or apologize? Now I know you have not gone the whole nine yards, I am just making a point :wink:.

This is what we have been taught for 'ten' years. ''This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

I am not a Calvinist but the bible talks about both free will to choose and predestination, I don't fully understand how it works but I trust god has it figured out. I guess I am a Calvinian.

We are pre-destined to be in Christ. We, being all who accept. The ''whosever will'' John 3:16.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

That verse literally talks of an unsaved person. It says 'sinners'.

Hi KJ,
Are you referring to James 4:8?
If so don't allow the word sinners throw you off there.

Include the entire chapter and one can see he is talking to Christians that are Not Walking according to the Word of God.

I tried to copy and paste the entire chapter but I am on my back up device at the moment and its a wee tiny get lost in your hand phone.

Hey if thats not the right scripture I apologize.
Enjoy your day!
Blessings

 

[Robb]

We were created to Love God and be loved by God and walk in His Ways.
God has His Plan for Man

We can freely choose to accept this or not.
Man can follow His own plan.
Blessings to you

There is no way to know if we have free will or not. How can you know your choices are not predestined by god? The bible talks about predestination in many verses Ro 8:29-30, Mt 24:22, 31, Mark 13:20, Ro 8:33, Eph 1:11, 2 Tim 2:10 etc. The bible also teaches we have a choice, all who believe will be saved Jn 3:16, Ro 10:9-10. Predestination has a place in theology and somehow god works it out with our choices. Just saying god knows who will choose as predestination does not jive with the definition of the word which in Greek means determined beforehand.

In the end, it does not say you need to believe in free will or predestination to be saved. It just says you need to believe Jesus died on the cross as punishment for sins and was resurrected for our salvation. God never rejects someone that truly believes no matter how they came to belief.

 

[Robb]

That verse literally talks of an unsaved person. It says 'sinners'. Here is another verse that completely debunks Calvinism Psalm 51:17.

All people are sinners, even Christians. You cannot equate sinners with only the unsaved. Psalm 51:17 is correct, god doe snot reject any believer. I am saying that gad calls us to him and gives us our faith Heb 12:2.

Nobody listening to a Calvinist grasps God as good. I guess I should qualify that statement and say '5 point' Calvinists.

Then they don't understand Calvinism and why they think god is good and just.

Here is an illustration:
A person falls overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean and is knocked unconscious in the water. One person throws a life preserver near the person and yells at them to grab the life preserver to be saved. A second person throws a life preserver around the person in the water and pulls them on board to be saved. Which person the first of second is good and which is evil?

The Calvinistic god saves dead people that cannot save themselves. Jesus says no one comes t the father unless they are draws by him. The 100% free will god says you cannot choose for yourself to follow me but I will let you make that choice. The Calvinistic god says I will make the choice for you to be saved when you cannot (Ro 3:10-12).

When the miss-representation is that of a wicked God, convince me on how I should arrive at another conclusion. Christianity is a belief that God is love 1 John 4:8. That God is good Psalm 136:1. That God lay His life down for us John 3:16. That God is light with no darkness at all 1 John 1:5."

It also teaches god is wrathful and just. Jn 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

In order to think otherwise, I would have to be convinced that you are blinded with good intentions. Or, you would need to make a really strong argument for partiality not being evil. The kind of argument the poor guy who lands up in hell can grasp. I propose you put yourself in that guy's shoes. Calvinism (5 pt) basically implies God knows from birth as to who will suffer in hell or reign with Him. IE He created people for hell. IE A baby could very well land up in hell. IE God is at a height of wickedness with partiality.

Then why did he choose the Israelites as his chosen people? I think what you are missing is that no one deserves to be saved. We all deserve hell for our sinful acts. God is good and just even if he saved no one. If god let sin go without punishment he would be evil just like an earthly judge.

It is fine to miss-represent God on Rom 14:5 type subjects. Not on, God tortures. Or God is partial. Imagine I did that to you? We should rather keep quiet if we have our doubts on such matters. By speaking up, well we are putting ourselves and our statement in the light. It is on par with me telling you about my wife for ten years, then saying she is a man. God is good. Not wicked. If you make a claim that hints at Him being, wicked. Defend it. Or apologize? Now I know you have not gone the whole nine yards, I am just making a point :wink:.

I made my case above.

This is what we have been taught for 'ten' years. ''This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Just wrath is not darkness but good.

We are pre-destined to be in Christ. We, being all who accept. The ''whosever will'' John 3:16.

Like I said above that is not what the word predestined means. The word means someone chose for you without your consent. That someone is God.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

There is no way to know if we have free will or not. How can you know your choices are not predestined by god?

Scripture tells us so.
Deut. Gives us the choice to choose God's Way or man's way.

If God made our choices then we would not need Jesus.

In the end, it does not say you need to believe in free will or predestination to be saved. It just says you need to believe Jesus died on the cross as punishment for sins and was resurrected for our salvation. God never rejects someone that truly believes no matter how they came to belief.

I have no clue why you are saying the above.

God has a plan for Man. He put it into place long ago. Predestined
We by free choice either accept it or we dont.. Our free choice.
(Predestination vs free will is an old theology argument)

Blessings to you

 

[Robb]

Scripture tells us so.
Deut. Gives us the choice to choose God's Way or man's way.

Where in Duet ore you talking about specifically?

If God made our choices then we would not need Jesus.

Why? Sin would still need to be judged. God made a way for that to happen, save people and keep himself just. God did not make us sinners, we did. We have free will to live our lives as we see fit, we just have no ability to choose god unless he helps. He just chose some to be saved and gave them the ability to make that choice. Is salvation up to you or god alone? If you get to make the choice then you can boast about your salvation.

God has a plan for Man.
He put it into place long ago. Predestined

What is that plan?

We by free choice either accept it or we dont.. Our free choice.

Then you are the author of your salvation and not god. Refer to my analogy in my previous post.

(Predestination vs free will is an old theology argument)

Because it is old does not have any bearing on the truth of it.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Why? Sin would still need to be judged. God made a way for that to happen, save people and keep himself just. God did not make us sinners, we did. We have free will to live our lives as we see fit, we just have no ability to choose god unless he helps. He just chose some to be saved and gave them the ability to make that choice. Is salvation up to you or god alone? If you get to make the choice then you can boast about your salvation.

The above was to
If God made our choices then we would not need Jesus.

If God made our choices then there would be no sin to judge. Do you think God would tell us to sin?

Salvation or Getting saved is our choice.
God already said He desires no man to perish . He gave us a way John 3:16
He makes Himself known to All.

We must decide, choose, take action.
The gift of salvation is still not by our works BUT we can boast we were smart enough to get born again, saved by ACCEPTING what God did for us through Christ Jesus.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Where in Duet ore you talking about specifically?

The above was to
Scripture tells us so.
Deut. Gives us the choice to choose God's Way or man's way.
Which pertains to God giving us free will.

Chapter 30

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

What is that plan?

Above pertains to
God has a plan for Man.
He put it into place long ago. Predestined

Salvation through Christ Jesus

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

ecause it is old does not have any bearing on the truth of it.

Above pertains to
Predestination vs free will is an old theology argument)

Have no use for it.
It's just man arguing God's Most Holy Word instead of simply just taking God at His Word and Believing it.

Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

Here is an illustration:
A person falls overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean and is knocked unconscious in the water. One person throws a life preserver near the person and yells at them to grab the life preserver to be saved. A second person throws a life preserver around the person in the water and pulls them on board to be saved. Which person the first of second is good and which is evil?

You say 'they' do not understand and then give an example identical to the one I gave.

So, using your example. Knowing that this second person is more like 'superman'. Who can jump in and save everyone. Why doesn't he?

Again, put yourself in the shoes of the one who goes to hell, a place of torment...not for one day....not for on week.....not for one month....not for one year.....not for ten years...not for fifty years...not for a hundred years...not for a thousand years....not for a million years...not for a billion years....not for a trillion years...not for quadrillion years ...not for quintillion years...not for even for a centillion years....for eternity.

HIt also teaches god is wrathful and just. Jn 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

A Christian is wrathful and just. We approve of the death penalty for rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Or long prison sentences. We do not approve of ....executing one rapist and letting another come live with us.

Then why did he choose the Israelites as his chosen people? I think what you are missing is that no one deserves to be saved. We all deserve hell for our sinful acts. God is good and just even if he saved no one. If god let sin go without punishment he would be evil just like an earthly judge.

You think the Jews benefited from being chosen?

When the law came, they started excommunicating and stoning each other to death. It was a curse. But God did counter balance the curse with blessings for obedience. God chose them for a purpose. Jesus. That's all. I imagine He scoured the earth looking for a good person, He found one in Abraham and decided to choose his descendants.

Like I said above that is not what the word predestined means. The word means someone chose for you without your consent. That someone is God.

Humans who hate what is evil and repent truthfully were pre destined to with God in Christ. That ''in Christ' is what is pre destined. We can't do anything about that.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

His will being to choose the whomsoever will repent. John 3:16 or God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[KingJ]

Hi KJ,
Are you referring to James 4:8?
If so don't allow the word sinners throw you off there.

Include the entire chapter and one can see he is talking to Christians that are Not Walking according to the Word of God.

I tried to copy and paste the entire chapter but I am on my back up device at the moment and its a wee tiny get lost in your hand phone.

Hey if thats not the right scripture I apologize.
Enjoy your day!
Blessings

I know, Paul is crystal clear in the first few verses.

My only point is that the congregation in attendance is never all Christian. Paul knows this. I can quote many other passages that make this clear. I have quoted one chapter 1 Cor 5, already.

I know you believe in OSAS, as do I. So we need to understand plenty of Paul's teaching on losing our salvation in a similar context. If you believe a Christian can lose their salvation, our discussion becomes a tad bit harder :wink:.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I know, Paul is crystal clear in the first few verses.

Paul is Clear about What?
I was referring to what you had said about James 4:8 in a post.