works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[B-A-C]

The main reason of this thread was to point out our works our no good enough for us to earn our salvation, there fore we are saved by grace, yet works is evidence we are saved.

You didn't title this thread "good" works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product.
You simply said works. That would include "bad" works, evil, sin... etc....

From what I gather, you don't believe this has anything to do with salvation either. At least you haven't said anything to
the contrary. So therefore, if "works" have nothing to do with it (yet they are a by product, I will add that if you like)
that means I can sin all I want and it doesn't affect my salvation. I don't really ever have to repent (I just need to "not like"
the fact that I still practicing sin, and in bondage to sin).

So I partially agree with you "Good" works don't save us. (Even though you didn't use the word "good")
But I still believe that if we continue on in sin, we haven't really repented.
"Bad" works (sin) can still prevent us from being saved. Therefore some works do have something to do with salvation.

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Repentance isn't hating sin, repentance is stopping, ceasing from sin.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

These verses don't say "unless you hate the fact that you are doing them". They say if you are practicing these thing you're not in the kingdom of God. Period.

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These verses also... they don't say "if you hate these things you are OK", it says if you doing these things (practicing these things) you are not in the kingdom of God.

 

[Dave M]

Hey BAC

I was mistaken, my apologies I was referring to good works only in the title

. If you are wanting to sin I doubt you have salvation is the way I look at it. Just as good works is a by product of salvation, repentance from sin, not sinning is also a by product from salvation the way I understand it.

I am no authority on the subject but if a person is living in sin and makes a practice of sin I do not see how they can be saved, but that is not my call to make that is Gods call.

it seems we agree on this

 

[Robb]

"Just sin" is evil work.
Those works will be judged at the end of time, and the doers of those evil works will end up in the lake of fire.
We need to remind the "saved by grace not by works" crowd that as long as their works are evil they are not under grace.
Thanks be to God for making a way to live without sin!

It seems to me you are saying grace is deserved and earned and not given freely. Is this your stance? Ephesians 4:7 says grace is a gift and not as a reward for good behavior. The characteristics of a gift are:

1. Nothing is owed in return, we don't owe god good works in return for his free gift of grace.
2. The receiver bears no cost, the giver of a gift bears all the cost. It cost God a lot but did not cost us anything to receive it.
3. A gift given is not expected to be returned. We are given the gift of grace once and god will never take it back.
4. The giver of a gift loses something so another can gain something. The giver is poorer and the receiver is richer.

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 - ESV

Grace is what saves us and we have no obligation to earn it. Eph 2:8

1 Jn is written to believers (2:18-19) and says if we claim to have no sin we make god to be a liar.

"This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. if we walk in the light,as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 Jn 5-10 - ESV.

 

[Dave M]

very well written Robb thank you.

Grace is a hard thing for a lot of people to fully understand, IMO

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Exactly from my personal experience with sin and repentance I can tell you I struggled with sexual immorality and when I first repented I went the longest I ever went before but then I slipped up and it happened again but then I fasted and repented and then went the longest I ever went before slipping up, now I can not even remember when the last time I slipped up was, my point is like Jim states I was not cured over night it took constant repentance and even fasting to get to the point whear I am seldom even tempted now. And when tempted I can finally have confidence that I wont slip up.

Now if God wants to cure someone of there sinful nature right away I am sure he can do that and have herd people claim that thats what happened to them apparently Peice say this is I am understanding him correctly, that is great for him but that is not the norm from talking to many others who are constantly maturing in the faith.

The main reason of this thread was to point out our works our no good enough for us to earn our salvation, there fore we are saved by grace, yet works is evidence we are saved. So they are related for the most part but there are exceptions that people have no works like the thief on the cross and are still saved.

Hi Dave,
One even harder was walking in Love and forgiveness.
Many think they have that down pact and yet agree with others how bad some one is or continue to treat them from within their anger towards them.

These folks who claim they don't sin because their repentance was real are only fooling themselves.
All children of God must grow and learn. That's right All.

It would be an interesting thing if those who claim they don't sin and went from being unsaved to perfected to list what sin is to them.

They boast how if some one missed the mark and sinned then they were not saved or did not crucify the flesh .

They read the Bible like a text book and speak from human reasoning and depend on their highly educated brains to understand Gods Ways.

Scripture has something to say about that.

They condemn others as not saved because of something they feel is sin and yet God isn't far too many times.
God won't hold you to light you don't have. Many times the one being accused does not even realize it's a sin yet.

No brother be very cautious around folks like this.

Now if God wants to cure someone of there sinful nature right away I am sure he can do that and have herd people claim that thats what happened to them

Deliver them from something yes, but to instantly fix their flesh and place them walking in the Spirit and they don't sin is not true at all.

We grow in Christ, we were given the tasks of building up the Spirit man and learning to keep the flesh under the spirits control.
God Does Not Do This For us and no man instantly has this done for them.

Blessings

 

[Robb]

One.
Just like Adam and Eve.
1 John 3:8-10 deem the servants of sin as children of the devil.
None of those are going to heaven.

How do you measure up under that standard? Verse 4 and 8 says it is people that makes a practice of sinning not Christians that should sin while doing good works or seeking righteousness.

 

[Robb]

very well written Robb thank you.

Grace is a hard thing for a lot of people to fully understand, IMO

Thanks, I agree including myself at times. When the gospel is preached it sounds scandalous and uneasy to some who want to have control over their salvation in my opinion.

 

[B-A-C]

it is people that makes a practice of sinning

You asked earlier... "how much" can we sin. "@Wired 4 Fishen" had a good answer... it's not a fixed number.

But I agree with you here. It's when we start to make a "practice" of it. When you practice something you do it over and over again.
This is where At Peace and I differ. I don't claim to be perfect, but I do believe we can't continue to "practice" sin.

Matt 7:23; And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I will add the verses you mentioned...

1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

So I'm not sure there is a specific "how many" times can I get away with it. But I do believe there comes a point when we need to recognize... we are "practicing" sin.
We don't have to be perfect, but we can't continue living a lifestyle of sin. This is by no means an exhaustive list, I could add another 10 verses about "practicing".
sin or righteousness. The good news is... if you... (or anyone you know)... is caught up in "practicing" sin. We don't have to continue in it.

 

[At Peace]

It seems to me you are saying grace is deserved and earned and not given freely. Is this your stance?

No.
But after our conversion we can pray for more grace, and knowledge too.

Ephesians 4:7 says grace is a gift and not as a reward for good behavior. The characteristics of a gift are:
1. Nothing is owed in return, we don't owe god good works in return for his free gift of grace.
2. The receiver bears no cost, the giver of a gift bears all the cost. It cost God a lot but did not cost us anything to receive it.
3. A gift given is not expected to be returned. We are given the gift of grace once and god will never take it back.
4. The giver of a gift loses something so another can gain something. The giver is poorer and the receiver is richer.
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 - ESV
Grace is what saves us and we have no obligation to earn it. Eph 2:8

Have we no obligation to make sure God's free gift isn't wasted?
Jesus died to wash away our sins with His blood.
Will someone who has by grace been washed in the blood of Christ go off and sin again, requiring more blood from Jesus?

1 Jn is written to believers (2:18-19) and says if we claim to have no sin we make god to be a liar.
"This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. if we walk in the light,as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 Jn 5-10 - ESV.

Are those who claim they have fellowship with God while they walk in darkness "brothers"?
John is describing two different kinds of 'walk'.
One in darkness, (sin), and one in the light, (God).
Nobody can walk in both at the same time.
Those walking in "God" don't commit sin.

 

[At Peace]

How do you measure up under that standard? Verse 4 and 8 says it is people that makes a practice of sinning not Christians that should sin while doing good works or seeking righteousness.

Those verses make no mention of "practicing".
If you kill a man, you are a murderer.
If you steal, you are a thief.
The only way to get rid of the label is with a true "turn from" sin, washing by the blood if Christ, and rebirth. (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:3-6)
The new creature is no longer a murderer or thief.
As for my "standing"? I turned from sin 14 years ago and have followed only God ever since.
He has made the way bearable, with moments of elation, and some sorrow too.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
These words are true, thanks be to God.

 

[Robb]

Repentance isn't hating sin, repentance is stopping, ceasing from sin.

I disagree that this is even possible. The Bible clearly says different in my opinion. The bible calls us all sinners even those secured in gods salvation. (1 John 1:8; Romans 7:19–20).

"For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:19-20 - ESV

Paul was saved when he wrote this right?

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

These verses don't say "unless you hate the fact that you are doing them". They say if you are practicing these thing you're not in the kingdom of God. Period.

I agree these people will not inherit the kingdom of god. That is why we need the sacrifice of Jesus.

Have we no obligation to make sure God's free gift isn't wasted?

No. Where in the bible does it put the burden on believers to not waste the gift of grace?

Jesus died to wash away our sins with His blood.
Will someone who has by grace been washed in the blood of Christ go off and sin again, requiring more blood from Jesus?

So the blood of Jesus does not wipe away sins not committed yet? Hebrews 9:26 says Jesus came once for all and no sacrifice is needed anymore. When paul says he sins in Romans 7:19-20, was he then not saved instantly or did Jesus sacrifice take away his sin?

Are those who claim they have fellowship with God while they walk in darkness "brothers"?
John is describing two different kinds of 'walk'.
One in darkness, (sin), and one in the light, (God).
Nobody can walk in both at the same time.
Those walking in "God" don't commit sin.

This is impossible.

 

[Robb]

Those verses make no mention of "practicing".

The ESV uses the word practicing.

If you kill a man, you are a murderer.
If you steal, you are a thief.
The only way to get rid of the label is with a true "turn from" sin, washing by the blood if Christ, and rebirth. (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:3-6)
The new creature is no longer a murderer or thief.

Yes because Jesus was made the murderer and thief on the cross for you.

As for my "standing"? I turned from sin 14 years ago and have followed only God ever since.
He has made the way bearable, with moments of elation, and some sorrow too.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
These words are true, thanks be to God.

I am not trying to start anything and want to be respectful but I don't believe this is true. Are you saying you have not sinned in 14 years?

 

[B-A-C]

B-A-C said:

In post #31, only the first two quotes were actually mine. The rest were from At Peace. Sometimes the "quoting" feature here takes a little getting used to.

The ESV uses the word practicing.

Almost all Bible except KJV do. I agree with you here, but At Peace probably won't, he is a KJV advocate. Even King James says

1 Jn 3:4; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

in old english - "th" signifies plural. "committeth" is the same thing as "keeps on committing".

1 Jn 3:8; He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Same thing is this verse "committeth" is the same thing as "keeps on committing", and "sinneth" is the same thing as "keeps on sinning".

===========================================================================================================================

So you agree we can't go on "practicing" sin. But you also say that it is impossible to quit sinning entirely. These seem to be conflicting statements.
Ok... is there a medium ground somewhere in between?

 

[Robb]

In post #31, only the first two quotes were actually mine. The rest were from At Peace. Sometimes the "quoting" feature here takes a little getting used to.

Thanks, I will be more careful.

So you agree we can't go on "practicing" sin. But you also say that it is impossible to quit sinning entirely. These seem to be conflicting statements.
Ok... is there a medium ground somewhere in between?

One of the definitions of practicing is performing an activity regularly with the intent of doing the activity. As in practicing law or engineering. If a Christian is willfully seeking out sinful activities as a lifestyle then I would say they are not saved. I sin even tough I don't want to, I don't seek out sinful activities. Christians do get angry without reason to, lust, lie etc. But it is not a lifestyle or choice to keep doing these things. I hope I explained this well enough.

 

[At Peace]

The ESV uses the word practicing.

Then throw it away.
It's "interpretation" has caused you to defend sinning.
Does that sound like it is coming from God?

Yes because Jesus was made the murderer and thief on the cross for you.

Correct.
So why return to that wickedness again after having been absolved of your sins?

I am not trying to start anything and want to be respectful but I don't believe this is true. Are you saying you have not sinned in 14 years?

If you are committed to continued sin, you can ignore my testimony and the scriptures I cited.
It will be 14 years on April 9th.
That was when I was given the gift of the Holy Ghost, promised by Peter in Acts 2:38 for repenting of sin.

 

[At Peace]

Almost all Bible except KJV do. I agree with you here, but At Peace probably won't, he is a KJV advocate. Even King James says
1 Jn 3:4; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
in old english - "th" signifies plural. "committeth" is the same thing as "keeps on committing".
1 Jn 3:8; He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Same thing is this verse "committeth" is the same thing as "keeps on committing", and "sinneth" is the same thing as "keeps on sinning".

What is the opposite of "keep on doing something"?
Isn't it "quit doing something"?

So you agree we can't go on "practicing" sin. But you also say that it is impossible to quit sinning entirely. These seem to be conflicting statements.
Ok... is there a medium ground somewhere in between?

I agree.
And there is no middle ground.
Grape vines cannot bear figs.
Our fruit determines of which vine/root we are born from.

 

[At Peace]

One of the definitions of practicing is performing an activity regularly with the intent of doing the activity. As in practicing law or engineering. If a Christian is willfully seeking out sinful activities as a lifestyle then I would say they are not saved. I sin even tough I don't want to, I don't seek out sinful activities. Christians do get angry without reason too, lust, lie etc. But it is not a lifestyle or choice to keep doing these things. I hope I explained this well enough.

How does that POV coexist with Gal. 5:24?..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Nobody does anything they don't "want to do".
Who is boss?
Your brain/mind or your hands and eyes?
Who is running the show in your vessel?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

It will be 14 years on April 9th.
That was when I was given the gift of the Holy Ghost, promised by Peter in Acts 2:38 for repenting of sin.

This is an honest question, to you what is sin?

 

[Robb]

Then throw it away.
It's "interpretation" has caused you to defend sinning.
Does that sound like it is coming from God?

ESV is not an interpretation. It is a more word for word translation than others. But that is another discussion.

Correct.
So why return to that wickedness again after having been absolved of your sins?

Because our sin nature cannot be removed until we get new bodies. Our flesh is sinful.

If you are committed to continued sin, you can ignore my testimony and the scriptures I cited.
It will be 14 years on April 9th.
That was when I was given the gift of the Holy Ghost, promised by Peter in Acts 2:38 for repenting of sin.

I am not committed to continued sin. I never said that. I just am honest with myself and with the text that we still sin.

Please answer this, When Paul says he sins in Romans 7:19-20, was he saved at this point?

"For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. - ESV"

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.- KJV

and

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." 1 Tim 1:15 - ESV.

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." - KJV

Here Paul says he is the chief sinner, not past but present tense. Was Paul not saved when he wrote this?

 

[Robb]

How does that POV coexist with Gal. 5:24?..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Nobody does anything they don't "want to do".
Who is boss?
Your brain/mind or your hands and eyes?
Who is running the show in your vessel?

Paul says differently. Paul did evil he did not want to do. Romans 7:19-20

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. - KJV