Can A Saved person Ever Become Unsaved?

[Jeff Hashbarger]

Simply not true!
The Apostolic Gospel, or what Pentecostals call the full gospel, of salvation is alive and being practiced today.
In the Revival Fellowship we preach and live Acts 2:38-39 and everybody can pray in other tongues by the Holy Spirit.
Our church enjoys the operation of all nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Our doctrine and salvation gospel is in full compliance with the first church and the scriptures.
Pentecostal divine healing began in England and the U.S. in the 1880s. Then there also began an outpouring of the latter rain with
people receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues around the 1902-04 period.
Divine healing was enjoyed by many as it was also in Jesus' time.
Pentecostal gospel with Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues and divine healing and miracles enjoyed a unparalleled popularity of acceptance
through to the 1930s.
The Second World War period disrupted this and people were involved in the war effort and conscription, etc.
Pentecost over the decades degenerated into the Evangelical movement where much of the original salvation gospel was watered down to broaden the
appeal of the gospel to a new generation less zealous for the strictness of the original teachings by Jesus and the Apostles.
As Americans became more affluent and with the rise of Humanism and hedonism the gospel message has been watered down and diluted over the
passing decades.

But in the midst of all this the Lord has preserved a rump. Some still believe the original one and only gospel preached and practiced by the Apostles
that you can read in Mark 16:15-20 and in Acts and the epistles.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly
contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 1:3
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:17-21

Wow, "our church" and "our doctrine " and "pentacastal gospel"?? What scripture supports those phases. My brother I am having trouble seeing that as anything but prideful. According to scripture it is His church and what other than the Bible do we need to find and or refer to for doctrine? Again please stop perpetuating this false information because there is simply NO scriptural support for "Pentecostal gospel ".

 

[Curtis]

Thank you Curtis for your reply I hope you had a great day celebrating the birth of our risen Savior!! To he help me better understand you response will you share the differences between saved and born again?

The word "saved" means "to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole."

The complete opposite meaning is "to destroy"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The word, "born again" means "To live, to have life"

The complete opposite meaning is, "To die"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The three things needed for a person to become born again is the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and faith

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The method in how these two words work together is......

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

Do you think the Lord does not know those who are his, and those who are not his which he knew from the foundation of the world? Or do you think he is waiting around to see what we are going to do so he can change what he already knew.

Here is what I see. I don't have a problem with the verses you picked here. I agree with everyone of them. The one thing we see slightly different, is that I think God
calls us all. You think He only calls some. But for the sake of this discussion, I don't think that matters.

Ok... An NFL team calls and visits a LOT of colleges before they decide who they want to draft. Many are called, but few are chosen.
A woman may date and call dozens of men before she decides who she wants to marry. I don't have a problem with that. That doesn't
change my theology. I believe God calls us all... but even if He doesn't, that doesn't really change much.

Just because a football team drafts you, gives you their uniform and makes you their property.... doesn't mean you will always be their property.
It doesn't mean you will never play for another team. Just because you marry a woman doesn't mean you will never get divorced. Just because
she "belongs" to you now, doesn't mean she always will.

Who God might choose or not choose really has nothing to do with once saved always saved.

So yes I agree with those verses, my theology has no problem with them.
However your theology disagrees with 2 Pet 3:9; and 1 Tim 2:4; so which theology is correct? The one that agrees with all of the verses, or the one that
only agrees with some of the verses?

Rev 3:20; 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus will come knocking on our door... but it's up to us to open it.

 

[Curtis]

Just because a football team drafts you, gives you their uniform and makes you their property.... doesn't mean you will always be their property.

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
1Co 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

The Lord God does not force anyone to come unto him, but when you do you are asking him to be your Lord, and he takes that very seriously.
You become his and he marks you as his own by sealing us with the Holy Spirit. If we ever get off the path that we are suppose to be on he will with out our permission correct, chastise, and sometimes punishes us until we get back on track.

 

[Curtis]

Ok... An NFL team calls and visits a LOT of colleges before they decide who they want to draft. Many are called, but few are chosen.

We can look at how God chose those to be his this way......

God is starting his own baseball team. He "calls" every together and says to them "I am starting a baseball team, who ever wants to be on my team raise your hand". God looks out at everyone he called, and then says, "Every one who has their hands up I chose you to be on my team"

Man has always had a choice to make wither he wanted life or death, blessing or cursing. The other thing that must be understood is that God knew from the beginning who each and every persons decision would be, before the world began. He can't help it he is God, he knows everything.

 

[Waggles]

because there is simply NO scriptural support for "Pentecostal gospel ".

3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
8 The Spirit breathes where he will and thou hear his voice: but thou know not whence he comes and whither he goes.
So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:3-8
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believes not shall he condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils. They shall speak with new tongues.
18 They shall take up serpents: and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay their hand upon the sick:
and they shall recover.
19 And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sits on the right hand of God.
20 But they going forth preached every where: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.
Mark 16:15-20
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:38-39
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:44-48
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there
be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,
that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
Acts 19:1-7
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed:
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Corinthians 12:3-11 (nine gifts that operate in a disciplined proper Pentecostal church)

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Corinthians 14:15

Orderly worship - how a Sunday meeting ought to be conducted according to Scripture:
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation,
hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Corinthians 14:26-29 (we do this every Sunday and our mid-week meetings)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

The word "saved" means "to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole."

The complete opposite meaning is "to destroy"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The word, "born again" means "To live, to have life"

The complete opposite meaning is, "To die"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The three things needed for a person to become born again is the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and faith

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The method in how these two words work together is......

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Thank you for clarifying those. The scripture also says we must believe in Him, confess Him as Lord and Savior,repent and be baptized.

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
8 The Spirit breathes where he will and thou hear his voice: but thou know not whence he comes and whither he goes.
So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:3-8
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believes not shall he condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils. They shall speak with new tongues.
18 They shall take up serpents: and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay their hand upon the sick:
and they shall recover.
19 And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sits on the right hand of God.
20 But they going forth preached every where: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.
Mark 16:15-20
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:38-39
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:44-48
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there
be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,
that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
Acts 19:1-7
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed:
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Corinthians 12:3-11 (nine gifts that operate in a disciplined proper Pentecostal church)

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Corinthians 14:15

Orderly worship - how a Sunday meeting ought to be conducted according to Scripture:
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation,
hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Corinthians 14:26-29 (we do this every Sunday and our mid-week meetings)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

Excellent stuff !! We are a 1 Cor. 14:26-29 body of believers also. Thank you for sharing!!

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
8 The Spirit breathes where he will and thou hear his voice: but thou know not whence he comes and whither he goes.
So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:3-8
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believes not shall he condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils. They shall speak with new tongues.
18 They shall take up serpents: and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay their hand upon the sick:
and they shall recover.
19 And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sits on the right hand of God.
20 But they going forth preached every where: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.
Mark 16:15-20
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:38-39
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:44-48
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there
be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,
that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
Acts 19:1-7
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed:
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Corinthians 12:3-11 (nine gifts that operate in a disciplined proper Pentecostal church)

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Corinthians 14:15

Orderly worship - how a Sunday meeting ought to be conducted according to Scripture:
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation,
hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Corinthians 14:26-29 (we do this every Sunday and our mid-week meetings)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

Where in scripture do you get the terms "pentacastal gospel"?

 

[B-A-C]

The word "pentecost" only appears in the Bible three times. ( Acts 2:1; Acts 20:16; and 1 Cor 16:8; )
Pente simply means "five". Pentecost = 50th. This traditionally coincides with the feast of passover which is 40 or 50 days long
depending on which scriptures you read. Jesus was crucified on the first day of passover. (Matt 26:2; John 2:13; )
This was the day the "lamb" was traditionally sacrificed ( Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7; )

After Jesus was crucified - He was "dead" (for lack of a better term) for 3 days. Then He walked around for 40 days. ( Acts 1:3; )
before He ascended back to heaven. In Acts 2:1; it says 50 days (day of Pentecost) after the passover began the Holy Spirit fell
upon the church for the first time. (Pretty much all of Acts chapter 2)

The day of Pentecost wasn't a one time event. It is mentioned in Acts 20:16; which the context here is events that happened Paul
traveled all over Asia and was going to Rome. Many think this could have been at least 13 to 15 years later.
It is also mentioned in 1 Cor 16:8; which is thought to have been seven to nine years after the original day of Pentecost.
(Paul wasn't a Christian yet, when the first day of Pentecost happened in Acts 2)

Generally charismatic "Pentecostal" Christians point to Acts 2; as the time when the Holy Spirit fell on the church (for the first time)
There were certain individuals in the Bible that had the Holy Spirit before this time (John the Baptist for example) but it wasn't given to the
church as a whole yet. John 16:7; says the Holy Spirit could not come unless Jesus went away. John 7:39; says the Holy Spirit wasn't given yet
because Jesus wasn't glorified yet.

Now what being Spirit filled - and having the gifts and fruit of Spirit means would take a lot of time to discuss. (perhaps another thread)
It has been discussed many times here on TJ before. But generally it involves speaking in tongues, prophecy, the gifts of thew Spirit mentioned
in 1 Cor 12:4-11;

Most Pentecostals believe that Salvation and being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit are two different events.
There are at least four passages in the New testament where people who had been saved for a while (believers)
did not receive the Holy Spirit until a while after they had been saved. In fact almost everyone in the upper room (120 people)
in Acts 2 had been saved for a while before they were baptized the Holy Spirit.

Of course all Christians are not charismatic/Pentecostal, but for those who are, this was a significant event in the church.

 

[B-A-C]

John 3:1; Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
John 3:2; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
John 3:3; Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:4; Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
John 3:5; Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Many pentecostals take this passage to mean that being "born again" and being "born of the Spirit" are the same thing.

However.. even among Pentecostal denominations this is some disagreement with this.
Some believe that when you get saved, you get the Holy Spirit... but you are not "baptized" in the Holy Spirit. (I'm not sure I can explain
the difference)
Others believe that there is no difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Finally most pentecostals do not believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is a "one time" thing. But you need to re-filled with the Holy Spirit
from time to time. ( The parable of the 10 virgins running out of oil, the church of Laodicea in Rev 3:17-18; Titus 3:5; etc.. )

All of this another debate for another thread... but that's where pentecost comes from.

 

[amadeus2]

Romans 11-29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

does not look like we can choose to walk away from his gifts, I would consider grace a gift.

People can and do misuse the gifts that God has given them. Consider the difference between improper use and proper in a comparison between King Saul and King David. Both men were anointed by the prophet of God but the way they viewed and used the gift received is the final difference between them. Remember that God does not change. He still looks at a person's heart rather than only at a person works. The gift of the Holy Ghost is not salvation, but how it is viewed and used may show your or me or someone else a picture of a person's heart. It will certainly show such a picture to God. This is why without a "vision" His people perish...

Both Saul and David were called. Both were given much by God. Their ends were very different.

 

[amadeus2]

A passage came to mind, not sure if someone mentioned this yet since I'm on the phone here but: parable of the prodigal son.

I think if we live a few years enough as believers, we'll all stumble many times, and backslide to a certain degree. At the end of the day, it's about his saving grace not our performance.

Alone we cannot be saved. We cannot save ourselves, but Jesus made a way for man to do the impossible. Obviously not everyone has taken advantage by walking through the Door to salvation. The question is whether or not a person who has once walked through the Door can turn around and go back... Is that not what Lot's wife effectively did when she looked back at Sodom?

We can now do the impossible, but we as always still have a choice to serve Him or not.

 

[amadeus2]

The reality is God chastises and corrects every son he receives when you get off the beaten path. God did not allow you to come back he brought you back.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus referred the two separate events that the Holy Spirit would be connected with.

1. Salvation in receiving eternal life.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The water referring to the Holy Spirit would be in him springing up into everlasting life.

2. Receiving power to do what God commissioned that person to do.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In both cases the Holy Spirit is inside the believer, one for salvation, and the other for service. There is a huge difference between a "spring of water springing up", compared to a "river flowing out of that same person"

 

[amadeus2]

If brains and logical understanding of the scriptures were the final answers, then those whose IQs approached that of Einstein would have a better chance at salvation than those with only average or below average IQs.

But that is not how it really works, is it? Thank God for a God who looks at men's hearts rather than comparing the doctrines they hold.

 

[Curtis]

Thank God for a God who looks at men's hearts rather than comparing the doctrines they hold.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

You are right logical analytical thinking can NOT discover the knowledge of God, but we can surly learn from what we are told from the Lord as we hear his voice. This is where our doctrine comes from as he reveals it to his saints by his Spirit.

 

[Jeff Hashbarger]

The word "pentecost" only appears in the Bible three times. ( Acts 2:1; Acts 20:16; and 1 Cor 16:8; )
Pente simply means "five". Pentecost = 50th. This traditionally coincides with the feast of passover which is 40 or 50 days long
depending on which scriptures you read. Jesus was crucified on the first day of passover. (Matt 26:2; John 2:13; )
This was the day the "lamb" was traditionally sacrificed ( Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7; )

After Jesus was crucified - He was "dead" (for lack of a better term) for 3 days. Then He walked around for 40 days. ( Acts 1:3; )
before He ascended back to heaven. In Acts 2:1; it says 50 days (day of Pentecost) after the passover began the Holy Spirit fell
upon the church for the first time. (Pretty much all of Acts chapter 2)

The day of Pentecost wasn't a one time event. It is mentioned in Acts 20:16; which the context here is events that happened Paul
traveled all over Asia and was going to Rome. Many think this could have been at least 13 to 15 years later.
It is also mentioned in 1 Cor 16:8; which is thought to have been seven to nine years after the original day of Pentecost.
(Paul wasn't a Christian yet, when the first day of Pentecost happened in Acts 2)

Generally charismatic "Pentecostal" Christians point to Acts 2; as the time when the Holy Spirit fell on the church (for the first time)
There were certain individuals in the Bible that had the Holy Spirit before this time (John the Baptist for example) but it wasn't given to the
church as a whole yet. John 16:7; says the Holy Spirit could not come unless Jesus went away. John 7:39; says the Holy Spirit wasn't given yet
because Jesus wasn't glorified yet.

Now what being Spirit filled - and having the gifts and fruit of Spirit means would take a lot of time to discuss. (perhaps another thread)
It has been discussed many times here on TJ before. But generally it involves speaking in tongues, prophecy, the gifts of thew Spirit mentioned
in 1 Cor 12:4-11;

Most Pentecostals believe that Salvation and being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit are two different events.
There are at least four passages in the New testament where people who had been saved for a while (believers)
did not receive the Holy Spirit until a while after they had been saved. In fact almost everyone in the upper room (120 people)
in Acts 2 had been saved for a while before they were baptized the Holy Spirit.

Of course all Christians are not charismatic/Pentecostal, but for those who are, this was a significant event in the church.

Thank you for sharing. I understand your points. There are 2 points I would like to make here...

If I understand you correctly you are referring to 2 distinct dispensations when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Before His death (no Holy Spirit) and after. In the after that Acts 2:38 refers to it ...38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ... gift is singular in that we receive the Holy Spirit. So how can it be as you claim some did not?

According to scripture there are no charismatic or Pentecostal Christians. Only christians. Acts 11:26.and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch... Do you know of scripture that says otherwise?

John 3:1; Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
John 3:2; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
John 3:3; Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:4; Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
John 3:5; Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Many pentecostals take this passage to mean that being "born again" and being "born of the Spirit" are the same thing.

However.. even among Pentecostal denominations this is some disagreement with this.
Some believe that when you get saved, you get the Holy Spirit... but you are not "baptized" in the Holy Spirit. (I'm not sure I can explain
the difference)
Others believe that there is no difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Finally most pentecostals do not believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is a "one time" thing. But you need to re-filled with the Holy Spirit
from time to time. ( The parable of the 10 virgins running out of oil, the church of Laodicea in Rev 3:17-18; Titus 3:5; etc.. )

All of this another debate for another thread... but that's where pentecost comes from.

Thank you, I get that what I am saying though is we are Christian! Not any denominational name, Christian! I simply do not understand ANY benefit from being in a denomination as opposed to being a Christian and bear fruit. Nowhere in scripture are denominations mentioned yet it seems to be very prevalent.

 

[B-A-C]

And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ... gift is singular in that we receive the Holy Spirit. So how can it be as you claim some did not?

Here we go again.


The disciples were in the upper room in Acts 2. Were they saved before the events in Acts 2? Were they saved before Jesus was crucified?
If they were, then they did not receive the Holy Spirit at the exact moment they got saved.

Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7 There were in all about twelve men.

Here Paul meets some "disciples" (about 12 men) . They were already believers. In fact they had already been baptized "into John's baptism".
But they didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. So now they get the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:1; Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2; a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Here we have a Gentile (of the Italian cohort) who was a believer. He was a "devout man who feared God".

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

But again, even though he was a believer, he didn't have the Holy Spirit until Peter visits him.

Now I suspect you aren't a Jehovah's witness (neither am I) but it's interesting they take John 3:3; and John 3:5; to mean you can be a Christian (believer)
but yet not born-again. In their world, not all Jehovah's witnesses go to heaven. Only the ones who are "born again" go to heaven, the rest have eternal life, but they spend it here on earth.

Finally we have Paul himself...
He gets saved on the road to Damascus. This is where he finds out who Jesus is. ( Acts 9:3-8; )
But even though he is a believer, he still doesn't have the Holy Spirit until he goes to Ananias's house. ( Acts 9:17; )

Notice in three of the cases above. The day of Pentecost had already happened. Acts 2 is the only time you can really say "it was the first time".

Also notice that in every case above, people spoke in tongues when they were baptized the Holy Spirit. Many pentecostals believe that you "have" to speak in tongues.
(at least once) in order to be baptized in the Spirit. That isn't necessarily my opinion, but I understand where they are coming from.
But even if the tongues aren't required, you can't argue that being baptized in the Holy Spirit happened sometime after they became a believer in every single case.

 

[B-A-C]

Christian! I simply do not understand ANY benefit from being in a denomination as opposed to being a Christian and bear fruit. Nowhere in scripture are denominations mentioned yet it seems to be very prevalent.

Agreed. I'm not the one who used the phrase "pentecostal gospel" above. That was @Waggles
I was just explaining what Pentecostalism is.

Having said that.. I do believe their are some "denominations" (Jehovah's witnesses for example) that are not Christian at all.