works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[Robb]

Can we all agree on this?

God desires all to be saved and he made a way to remove sin from people.
We choose to repent and believe for salvation. (Whether we freely choose or god chooses for us)
Our sins are forgiven and we will live in heaven with god for eternity.

Or what can we agree on?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

This says that we chose god because god chose us first but doesn't that equal god chose us. If god chose us to be saved first then us choosing god is not a free choice. But anyway, we could go on forever.

Blessings brother.

Two teams chose you to play ball before you were born because your relatives were great ball players.

So you now choose a team and play for them.

 

[Dave M]

since we are talking about osas one thing I found very interesting is when we study the parallels between mosses and Jesus, everything Mosses did pointed to Jesus even there births were similar. So when take that into account and use some speculation for fun, we see that God used Mosses to set free the Israelites from slavery from the Egyptians, mosses was there savior and saved them from being slaves. Just as Jesus saves us from being slaves to sin.

Ok here is the speculation part

well since Mosses saved all the Israelite's from slavery, you think they were saved yet some still turned there back on what God did for them and many lost there salvation and some of the Israelite were even swallowed up by the earth while still alive. so it seems they lost there salvation doesn't it.

so with this in mind it sure seems we can loose our salvation that Jesus gave us if we turn back to our evil ways. You know the Israelite;s actually complained and a lot of them wanted to go back to being slaves because the food was better there is what some of them said..

 

[B-A-C]

if we turn back to our evil ways. You know the Israelite;s actually complained and a lot of them wanted to go back to being slaves because the food was better there is what some of them said.

"@Dave M" is posting this? Are you feeling alright buddy? Do I need to pray for you? Do you have a fever?

In any case you are at least willing to consider some other thoughts. Good for you!

 

[Dave M]

"@Dave M" is posting this? Are you feeling alright buddy? Do I need to pray for you? Do you have a fever?

In any case you are at least willing to consider some other thoughts. Good for you!

LOL I just want you @B-A-C after a long hard day you just put a big smile on my face thanks

 

[B-A-C]

I agree that is his plan. So did he plan for all to be saved or just some? I don't view as god hoping, pleading and waiting for you to be saved, he is more powerful than that and that would make us the author of our salvation and not god.

Ahhh yes... I remember now

Another thing that separates the church these days... (those darn Arminians and Calvinists!)

Quoted from Irresistible grace - Wikipedia

Irresistible grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. It is to be distinguished from prevenient grace particularly associated with Arminianism which teaches that the offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method, but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.

Quoted from Prevenient grace - Wikipedia

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime. It starts to happen to the individual without any consideration to anything he/she may have done either good or bad. The person does not have to be religious and most are just people who like all of mankind are evildoers. No previous action or thought induces God to act graciously, lovingly, and movingly towards them at that moment of their lives. It is up to that person to accept the sudden light of God's love towards them and to respond in kind. As it is written in scripture God shows love towards all freely even if we don't deserve it. Because everyone's nature is corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

As you can see... this isn't a new subject or a new debate by any means. But I think these points of view define our theology.
Again I would ask... it is possible for everyone to agree on this?

 

[At Peace]

since we are talking about osas one thing I found very interesting is when we study the parallels between mosses and Jesus, everything Mosses did pointed to Jesus even there births were similar. So when take that into account and use some speculation for fun, we see that God used Mosses to set free the Israelites from slavery from the Egyptians, mosses was there savior and saved them from being slaves. Just as Jesus saves us from being slaves to sin.

Ok here is the speculation part

well since Mosses saved all the Israelite's from slavery, you think they were saved yet some still turned there back on what God did for them and many lost there salvation and some of the Israelite were even swallowed up by the earth while still alive. so it seems they lost there salvation doesn't it.

so with this in mind it sure seems we can loose our salvation that Jesus gave us if we turn back to our evil ways. You know the Israelite;s actually complained and a lot of them wanted to go back to being slaves because the food was better there is what some of them said..

You seem to understand the parallels.
But don't forget, that some of the Israelites DID make it into the promised land.
Not all who turn from sin-Egypt turn back to slavery.

 

[Dave M]

You seem to understand the parallels.
But don't forget, that some of the Israelites DID make it into the promised land.
Not all who turn from sin-Egypt turn back to slavery.

yes some did but I think from the first generation not many at all if I remember correctly, it took the second generation to actually get there, the gate is narrow

 

[KingJ]

God judges all by the same standard, doing the law. He is not biased.

It seems you have a reading and writing problem.

You '''said''' a person jumps in and saves a few of the drowning victims / all sinners. That is biased. Please read the dictionary definition of bias.

Do I also have to convince you that bias is wicked?

Forgiveness is not deserved or earned. It is a gift. If we deserve salvation then we earned it somehow. Eph 2 says differently.

It is a gift given to those who want it. Not all want it.

You are basing good and evil by your standards and not gods.

I am basing good and evil off of the BRAIN THAT GOD GAVE ME ...what more can He expect? He did not expect us to use it???

Even more so as a Christian we can grasp good and evil. Please read 1 Cor 6:1-9. You think one-day in heaven God will be like ''surprise surprise I am wicked''.

You want god to become evil by being unjust and letting sin reign. I am not thankful for anyone to go to hell. The fact is we all deserve it. I tell others because god says to. Seems to me you are saying that you will be ungrateful for your salvation unless that girl over there that murdered her parents goes free. (mt 5:21-23)

You are changing your belief now by saying that little girl murdered her parents. You have implied it could just be some unlucky little girl. One murderous little girl chosen, whilst another who just had a thought of it or never ever had a thought of it, goes to hell. That is the belief you have proposed in your posts here. Are you retracting now?

I agree god is not wicked. I am grasping what you are saying, I just don't agree.

I have been trying to have a rational discussion with you, but you just don't seem to want one. You are keeping to a biased view off of cherry picked scriptures and making troll like replies. Reading my posts like you do the bible.

 

[KingJ]

Can we all agree on this?

God desires all to be saved and he made a way to remove sin from people.
We choose to repent and believe for salvation. (Whether we freely choose or god chooses for us)
Our sins are forgiven and we will live in heaven with god for eternity.

Or what can we agree on?

That underlined statement does not support your prior posts by a mile. That line is like the complete opposite of Calvinism.

Calvinists read John 3:16 as ''God so loved His chosen few'' and not the world.

I agree 100% with your post.

 

[amadeus2]

@B-A-C all I got to say is I can wait for bible study in heaven !!!

But what exactly is it that we have or can have now that differs from what we may have when our journey in this corruptible flesh is finished?

 

[amadeus2]

yes some did but I think from the first generation not many at all if I remember correctly, it took the second generation to actually get there, the gate is narrow

Only Caleb and Joshua of those above the age of 20 years did not die in the wilderness. To me it is a type or shadow of the number believers who did not reverse themselves. As Jesus put it:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:14

But then consider how many were and how many were not saved from the flood in Noah's day.

Only 8 people saved, but what of the unclean and clean beasts?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You seem to understand the parallels.
But don't forget, that some of the Israelites DID make it into the promised land.
Not all who turn from sin-Egypt turn back to slavery.

Some meaning 2.
They stayed in FAITH.
They spoke God's word/promise
They stayed Strong and took the land because they stayed in Faith taking God's Word at what God said and NOT by what they saw or heard others say.

 

[Dave M]

But what exactly is it that we have or can have now that differs from what we may have when our journey in this corruptible flesh is finished?

I would guess are eyes will be opened to things that they are currently closed to,

 

[At Peace]

yes some did but I think from the first generation not many at all if I remember correctly, it took the second generation to actually get there, the gate is narrow

I was addressing the "parallel", of returning to sinning.
As only two men were faithful in that generation, it is no wonder that Jesus wondered if He would even find faith when He returns.
The example supplied by Caleb and Joshua serve to remind us that we need not return to the bondage of sin.

 

[B-A-C]

Numb 13:30; Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, "We should by all means go up and take possession of it, for we will surely overcome it."
Numb 13:31; But the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us."

God already told the Jews they could have this land. It was the "promised" land. All they had to do was go get it.
Jesus has already told us we can overcome sin. 1 Jn 5:4; For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1 Jn 4:4; You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
Matt 4:17; From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Jas 4:7; Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

But some (most?) of the spies came back and said... no... "they are too strong for us".
Why do we go back and tell Jesus... no we can't do it. Sin is too strong for us.

Why do we base our beliefs on our feelings and experiences rather than what the Bible tells us?
Is it because we really don't believe God.... like the other spies that went with Caleb and Joshua.

 

[amadeus2]

I would guess are eyes will be opened to things that they are currently closed to,

Indeed and how much are we able to see before they shovel the dirt over our faces?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

So when is it that we shall be able to see him as He is? When He appears? And is he not appearing to us and in us in a measure, that is as through a glass darkly, even now?

Is our vision of Him not on the increase even now while we are still in this veil of flesh? If not, why not?

 

[At Peace]

Some meaning 2.
They stayed in FAITH.
They spoke God's word/promise
They stayed Strong and took the land because they stayed in Faith taking God's Word at what God said and NOT by what they saw or heard others say.

You do realize, I hope, that the manifestation of "losing their faith" was their sin.
The same holds true for today.
Sinners don't have faith.

 

[Robb]

Two teams chose you to play ball before you were born because your relatives were great ball players.

So you now choose a team and play for them.

The difference is that I believe the bible says that we cannot choose, we are unable to choose.

 

[Robb]

Ahhh yes... I remember now

Another thing that separates the church these days... (those darn Arminians and Calvinists!)

It should not divide us. It does not matter how you think you came to repent and believe, it matters that you have repented and believe.