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works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

I have great respect for any who believe you can lose your salvation.

It is the mind we should have. Paul's teaching is full of warnings.

I just don't because I believe I grasp the mind of God better then you do :happy:.

But, I won't argue because.. it is the mind we should have.
 
I have great respect for any who believe you can lose your salvation.

It is the mind we should have. Paul's teaching is full of warnings.

I just don't because I believe I grasp the mind of God better then you do :happy:.

But, I won't argue because.. it is the mind we should have.

I like this, scripture can be used to support both cases and the more I read scripture the more my stance on osas changes, I am certainly not ever going to test it, but the more I read scripture the more me personally realize it is not 100% clear whether we can or can not loose it. recently I read this and was blown away and got me second guessing my stance on osas
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

but like you I respect both views and will not argue about it

back to topic sorry for derail
 
Boy, this is always a touchy subject. Everyone seems to have really strong feelings about this.

This is quote from Synergism (theology) - Wikipedia

In Christian theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom. It stands opposed to monergism, a doctrine most commonly associated with the Lutheran and Reformed Protestant traditions, whose soteriologies have been strongly influenced by the North African bishop and Latin Church Father Augustine of Hippo . Lutheranism, however, confesses a monergist salvation and synergist damnation (see below). Synergism is upheld by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, and by the Methodist and Pentecostal traditions of Protestantism. It is an integral part of Arminian theology.

Ok.. well that was a boring read.... what does that have to do with works? Please bare with me.

This is a quote from Monergism - Wikipedia

Monergism is the view within Christian theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation. It is most often associated with Calvinism (such as Presbyterianism and the Dutch Reformed Church) and its doctrine of irresistible grace, and particularly with historical doctrinal differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. This position contrasts with Arminian synergism, the belief that God and individuals cooperate to bring individuals salvation.

I know all about 5 point Cavinism and TULIP and all that. But to me... the heart of Amrminianism and Calvinism is really
the two ideologies above. Put simply.... one believes that God alone handles it all. There is NOTHING we can do to affect
our salvation. We can't chose it, turn away from it, or do anything to change it. God is in total control of it and nothing I
can do will ever change it.

The other believes that Salvation takes an effort, an intentional contribution. The choices we make, and how we live affect
our salvation. That isn't to say God doesn't guide us, lead us, persuade us... and we certainly aren't capable of doing on our own.
No one gets to heaven without Jesus. ( John 14:6; ) But these people believe salvation is ultimately in our hands. It is a cooperative
effort between you and God.

If you think about it.... everything we believe about OSAS, predestination, total depravity, irresistable grace, etc...
comes down to one of these two ideaologies. Also known as "your world view".

It also seems these things are ingrained in us to our very cores. It's been my experience that most Arminians will never change
their point of view on this. ( I can say this as someone who attended a Baptist church for over decade, it didn't change me).

Calvinists are equally strong in their convictions. Most of them never change this point of view. ( I can say this as a teacher in
a Pentecostal church that has many ex-Baptists, some ave been in this church for decades.). I've seen debates and arguments here
on TalkJesus over the last 10 years. Dozens of them. They often cause hard feelings, but it seems they never change anyone's point
of view, so I sometimes wonder why it is such a popular subject.

This thread is about works and salvation. Synergism would say some works are required.
The parable of the talents, the parable of the sheep and goats, the teaching about the two men who built their houses on the rock and the sand, these are central to the synergism/Arminians point of view.

Monergism would say works are not required. Eph 2:8-9; Rom 4:2; Rom 9:11; and 2 Tim 1:9; would be central to this point of view.

Is there a way to ever make these two points of view agree?
 
If God made our choices then there would be no sin to judge. Do you think God would tell us to sin?
I think I have not been clear. I don't believe that all our choices are predetermined by god. We have free will to choose whatever we want to do with our lives, even choose him. We choose to sin. The problem is that because we are dead in sin we will not or cannot choose to believe the gospel without Gods help.

Salvation or Getting saved is our choice.
God already said He desires no man to perish . He gave us a way John 3:16
He makes Himself known to All.
I agree that we do choose, but we would not choose unless god helped us to choose. Also as I said before there is no way of knowing if we have free will or not. You cannot tell the difference between choosing for yourself or being manipulated to choose by an outside entity.

We must decide, choose, take action.
The gift of salvation is still not by our works BUT we can boast we were smart enough to get born again, saved by ACCEPTING what God did for us through Christ Jesus.
We are to boast about what Jesus did not what we have done. 1 Cor 26-31.

Ephesians 2:1-10 says:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

No where in here does it say that we do anything, it says god does everything for our salvation.
 
The above was to
Scripture tells us so.
Deut. Gives us the choice to choose God's Way or man's way.
Which pertains to God giving us free will.

Chapter 30
I would say he gave the Israelites the choice. I don't see you or me in the text.
 
Above pertains to
God has a plan for Man.
He put it into place long ago. Predestined

Salvation through Christ Jesus
I agree that is his plan. So did he plan for all to be saved or just some? I don't view as god hoping, pleading and waiting for you to be saved, he is more powerful than that and that would make us the author of our salvation and not god.
 
You say 'they' do not understand and then give an example identical to the one I gave.

So, using your example. Knowing that this second person is more like 'superman'. Who can jump in and save everyone. Why doesn't he?
Why should he? Everyone deserves punishment for sin. Does it make god less good if he does not save everybody? If he lets people choose and perish isn't that worse than him choosing for some?

Again, put yourself in the shoes of the one who goes to hell, a place of torment...not for one day....not for on week.....not for one month....not for one year.....not for ten years...not for fifty years...not for a hundred years...not for a thousand years....not for a million years...not for a billion years....not for a trillion years...not for quadrillion years ...not for quintillion years...not for even for a centillion years....for eternity.
I have, that is why am thankful for my salvation and tell others about the promise of heaven. I have come to the conclusion that I deserve that punishment for my sin.

A Christian is wrathful and just. We approve of the death penalty for rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Or long prison sentences. We do not approve of ....executing one rapist and letting another come live with us.
I am not sure what you are getting at here.

You think the Jews benefited from being chosen?
At times.

Humans who hate what is evil and repent truthfully were pre destined to with God in Christ. That ''in Christ' is what is pre destined. We can't do anything about that.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

His will being to choose the whomsoever will repent. John 3:16 or God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I don't see these as contradicting god choosing us and not us choosing him. We believe because he draws us to him. Jn 6:44.
 
I agree that is his plan. So did he plan for all to be saved or just some? I don't view as god hoping, pleading and waiting for you to be saved, he is more powerful than that and that would make us the author of our salvation and not god.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Hmmm... if God's "power" depends on whether we get saved or not, that means He doesn't have enough power to save everyone.

But God is God no matter whether anyone gets saved or not. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, 100% of the human population on earth were in sin.
Did God quit being God during this time? God told them not to eat the fruit... they did it anyway. God is sovereign even when we don't do what He tells us to do.

Also keep in mind... that if anyone "doesn't" get saved. God is the author of that as well, which would make Him a liar if the verses above are correct.
 
Is there a way to ever make these two points of view agree?
Probably not. My view is that it does not matter for a persons salvation what they believe on this topic. We can believe we chose or god chose us and we are still saved. I never meant to sound angry or short. If I did I apologize. It is interesting to debate but the truth is probably above our pay grade in the end.
 
1. Why should he? 2. Everyone deserves punishment for sin. 3. Does it make god less good if he does not save everybody? 4. If he lets people choose and perish isn't that worse than him choosing for some?

5. I have, that is why am thankful for my salvation and tell others about the promise of heaven. I have come to the conclusion that I deserve that punishment for my sin.
1. Partiality is wicked. Just ask the unlucky person. Your idea of God and heaven would be mine of the devil and hell.
2. Everyone deserves separation for sin. Those who repent and make amends deserve forgiveness. Punishment for the unrepentant sinner / those whose love of sin is well grasped by God John 3:19 and them, is eternal separation. IE God gives those who hate Him a place to live away from Him. He really just gives them what they want. Hence there was a divide in the OT in Hades.
3. If it is not dependent on them, uhm.... yes. I can truly not believe you just asked that question. Why did God ever entertain the fallen angels in heaven?
4. Uhm, yes. You really need to quote and re-visit those scriptures that make you think all those chosen by God automatically obeyed. God chose 12 disciples. One chose to rebel. Did Jesus give Judas any reason or cause to betray Him?
5. Why tell others? How in the universe can you be thankful? ''Thank you Lord for choosing to save me.....and sending that little girl over there to an eternity in hell''. If you had any goodness in you, you would be disgusted with God and demand he trade you for another.

You need to think more on your belief. God is not wicked. Please re-read my replies to you. It is as though you are just not grasping them.
 
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1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
God desires for all to be saved, I agree, he desires us to not sin. Jesus said to be perfect as god is perfect.

Hmmm... if God's "power" depends on whether we get saved or not, that means He doesn't have enough power to save everyone.
I don't think I said gods power depends on saving sinners. I meant that he is not helpless in our salvation. He will save people if he chooses.

But God is God no matter whether anyone gets saved or not. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, 100% of the human population on earth were in sin.
Did God quit being God during this time? God told them not to eat the fruit... they did it anyway. God is sovereign even when we don't do what He tells us to do.
I agree. He is also good no matter if he saves anyone.

Also keep in mind... that if anyone "doesn't" get saved. God is the author of that as well, which would make Him a liar if the verses above are correct.
Those verses say he desires and wishes all to be saved. He never says he will save all.
 
I like this, scripture can be used to support both cases and the more I read scripture the more my stance on osas changes, I am certainly not ever going to test it, but the more I read scripture the more me personally realize it is not 100% clear whether we can or can not loose it. recently I read this and was blown away and got me second guessing my stance on osas
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

but like you I respect both views and will not argue about it

back to topic sorry for derail
Don't change your stance on OSAS. I need someone on my side :wink:.

Not to derail this thread further from its current derailed course of Calvinism. We just need to remember one thing. We are not God who can judge a mind and heart properly Jer 17:9-10. When we judge ourselves, we can ''think'' we are judging truthfully. A proud and boastful sinner will always say they deserve heaven. God understands me. I will tell God the truth of the matter when I see Him. They / we lie to ourselves daily.

God does not make mistakes. If there was a chance that Jesus did not know who His bride was...well then we must also believe in universalism. That one day all the wicked and even the devil will be reconciled with God. IE God makes mistakes. God made a mistake kicking the devil out of heaven. I think not.
 
Those verses say he desires and wishes all to be saved. He never says he will save all.
Now your grasping at straws.
God desires. God makes sure we all have that chance.
We can push away, ignore and walk away from any opportunity God gave us to be born again.

God still desires for them to be saved and any time they change their mind, heart and turn to Him, he will save them via His salvation.

As long as they have breath on this earth, they can be saved.
Blessings to you
 
1. Partiality is wicked. Just ask the unlucky person. Your idea of God and heaven would be mine of the devil and hell.
God judges all by the same standard, doing the law. He is not biased.

2. Everyone deserves separation for sin. Those who repent and make amends deserve forgiveness. Punishment for the unrepentant sinner / those whose love of sin is well grasped by God John 3:19 and them, is eternal separation. IE God gives those who hate Him a place to live away from Him. He really just gives them what they want. Hence there was a divide in the OT in Hades.
Forgiveness is not deserved or earned. It is a gift. If we deserve salvation then we earned it somehow. Eph 2 says differently.

3. Uhm, yes. I can truly not believe you just asked that question.
Ok

4. Uhm, yes. You really need to quote and re-visit those scriptures that make you think all those chosen by God automatically obeyed.
I never said this or I don't understand what you mean here.

5. Why tell others? How in the universe can you be thankful? Are you that sick in your mind? ''Thank you Lord for choosing to save me.....and sending that little girl over there to an eternity in hell''. If you had any goodness in you, you would be disgusted with God and demand he trade you for another.
You are basing good and evil by your standards and not gods. You want god to become evil by being unjust and letting sin reign. I am not thankful for anyone to go to hell. The fact is we all deserve it. I tell others because god says to. Seems to me you are saying that you will be ungrateful for your salvation unless that girl over there that murdered her parents goes free. (mt 5:21-23)

You need to think more on your belief. God is not wicked. Please re-read my replies to you. It is as though you are just not grasping them.
I agree god is not wicked. I am grasping what you are saying, I just don't agree.
 
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In the end the two sides of this debate agree on the same thing. That we must repent and believe to be saved. How this happens is the issue but not an issue that should divide Christians. We will all know the 100% truth someday, I am sure none of us fully comprehends how salvation happens.
 
God chose us before the foundation of this earth

God makes Himself Known

We choose God or anything else.

Its not that Spiritually deep.
Blessings

This says that we chose god because god chose us first but doesn't that equal god chose us. If god chose us to be saved first then us choosing god is not a free choice. But anyway, we could go on forever.

Blessings brother.
 
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