Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus?

[Rhema]

Dear Brothers, @Rhema @th1bill
Please stop the back and forth that appears to only agitate each other more and does nothing in getting to the understanding of the topic of genealogies of Jesus found in Scripture that you both were addressing.

If you must, agree to disagree, and let others continue with trying to discuss this in a civil manner. It would be greatly appreciated.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Dear, dear brother in Christ. While I commend you on the intent, I don't think that your post here is truly helpful. It is a flat out lie that the Gospel according to Luke gives the genealogy of Mary, and this widely held myth ought to be addressed in an honest and forthright manner and declared to be the heresy that it is. All that you've done here is to give brother Bill an excuse to avoid confronting the truth that he is literally changing the words of scripture. And that's not right. Are we not to hold one another accountable in matters of fact?

​

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.​

- 2 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV

It says "preach the word," not change the words.

Now, I can totally agree with you that the rhetoric can be toned down, and if you read through the discussion, I have done my very best to stay on topic and focus on the absolutely undeniable fact that the genealogy given in Luke is that of Joseph, not Mary. Yet I can respect your post which indicates that my words may have not been longsuffering enough. So how would you suggest that I address this concern? How would you reprove, rebuke, and exhort against changing what scripture actually states? It's not like there is a translation problem here. I can assure you of that.

But shouldn't one actually BE agitated when other people change the words of scripture to promote a false narrative? Why doesn't that agitate you? Do you believe that literally misrepresenting the words as actually written in scripture is a mere trifle? That such a thing is insignificant? I directly ask you, is this truly okay with you?

It is not Love to let a brother continue misrepresenting the actual words of scripture.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.​

- Titus 3:9-11 KJV

Now I really, really, need to make it clear that I am NOT striving about a genealogy, but rather about changing the words that are written. Given the fact that I've spoken out against (admonished) the lie that Luke gives a genealogy of Mary more than twice is an indication of longsuffering.

One cannot even being to address the fact that there is a contradiction in the two genealogies of Joseph if one cannot even admit the truth that both Luke and Matthew give a genealogy of Jesus through Joseph (his legal father).

let others continue with trying to discuss this in a civil manner. It would be greatly appreciated.

If this is causing Bill great anxiety and stress, I would just have him embrace the truth of what is actually written. And since I would love to discuss this with others, I'll ask you.

In the following verse -

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,​

- Luke 3:23 KJV

Do the words state that Jesus was (supposedly) the son of Joseph who was the son of Heli ??

TIA for an honest and truthful answer,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

TIA for an honest and truthful answer,
Rhema

Well so much for that.

 

[th1bill]

After all the discussion, the truth is that Yeshua, Jesus in the Greek, is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. Yeshua is and always has been the Son of God, the second part of our Triune God, the One God.

John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

When a child believes their father, they believe he has spoken the absolute truth. The Scriptures teach us that we are required to believe in that exact manner.

Mark 10:13-18 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

 

[Christ4Ever]

But shouldn't one actually BE agitated when other people change the words of scripture to promote a false narrative? Why doesn't that agitate you? Do you believe that literally misrepresenting the words as actually written in scripture is a mere trifle? That such a thing is insignificant? I directly ask you, is this truly okay with you?

Dear Rhema,
So, what is your suggestion of what I should do about this?
Oh, and please consider it, if they don't listen to the correction as well.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

After all the discussion, ....

After all the discussion, the truth is that people who wantonly change the words of scripture are children of the devil - pure evil. And that includes the translators of the NIV.

John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“ {NIV}

Scripture doesn't say that Bill - it says:

θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

- John 1:18 KJV

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.​

- John 1:18 NKJV

God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father—he did declare.​

- John 1:18 YLT

The NIV is a translation from the pit of hell, known to ADD WORDS (highlighted above in red) that are not in the original manuscripts.

Anyone who believes the NIV is lost. Just as lost as those who believe the NWT.

C'mon Bill, you're smarter than that.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

So, what is your suggestion of what I should do about this?

Just answer the question.

Is it okay with you when people change, alter, add in words, or distort what scripture says? (And I'm not talking about interpretation.)

It should be a simple honest thing for you to say that both Matthew and Luke present a genealogy of Joseph, the supposed father of Jesus, since that's what the texts say, even the (correctly translated) English translations. (Can you?)

Thanks,
Rhema

Oh, and please consider it, if they don't listen to the correction as well.

I'm not really asking you to correct anybody. And if no one listens, what can one do but pray?

Most didn't listen to Jesus. Most all don't even today, especially the ones calling themselves Christian. Nothing to be done but testify -

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.​

- Matthew 12:37 KJV

 

[Christ4Ever]

So, what is your suggestion of what I should do about this?

Just answer the question.

That does nothing, because each will continue to believe what you believe to be true, no matter what I say.
The question nor the answer is my concern in all this.
It is how you agitate each other with irrelevant comments and can't come to an agreement to disagree when you see that you are getting nowhere!

Oh, and please consider it, if they don't listen to the correction as well.

I'm not really asking you to correct anybody. And if no one listens, what can one do but pray?

Prayer always first never an afterthought due to our ineffectiveness of producing what we believe was going to be positive results.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[thelightbearsservant]

Well ! I am disappointed in .I have seen here so far. Why? Because I have been seeking a Room in which deeper things could be discussed. For example: Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus ? ?

Does This get attention?

Many believe the person that walked with Adam in the garden was Jesus. And the person who wrestled with Jacob was Jesus also when Daniel was in the furnace. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God Daniel 3:25 so Jesus always was even before he was born of Mary

 

[Rhema]

That does nothing, because each will continue to believe what you believe to be true, no matter what I say.

It will restore my faith in your honesty.

 

[Rhema]

Many believe the person that walked with Adam in the garden was Jesus. And the person who wrestled with Jacob was Jesus also when Daniel was in the furnace. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God Daniel 3:25 so Jesus always was even before he was born of Mary

Sure, people make up stuff about Jesus all the time. Lying on behalf of their God is a favorite pastime of all Mankind worldwide. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that I've heard. The most recent of which is that Paul had to teach the Twelve the true Gospel.

But if all those things you mentioned were true, why didn't Jesus ever confirm it? Why didn't Jesus have his Apostles preach it? The silence is deafening.

I have a friend who believes that the Book of Enoch HAS to be true, because nobody could ever make any of that up.
To which I replied, like Star Wars?

The doctrine of the Trinity states as a fundamental premise that Jesus always was even before he was born of Mary. (Like who cares what's actually written in scripture.)

God bless,
Rhema
- nice to meet you.

 

[thelightbearsservant]

Sure, people make up stuff about Jesus all the time. Lying on behalf of their God is a favorite pastime of all Mankind worldwide. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that I've heard. The most recent of which is that Paul had to teach the Twelve the true Gospel.

But if all those things you mentioned were true, why didn't Jesus ever confirm it? Why didn't Jesus have his Apostles preach it? The silence is deafening.

I have a friend who believes that the Book of Enoch HAS to be true, because nobody could ever make any of that up.
To which I replied, like Star Wars?

The doctrine of the Trinity states as a fundamental premise that Jesus always was even before he was born of Mary. (Like who cares what's actually written in scripture.)

God bless,
Rhema
- nice to meet you.

Theres a great many things that jesus did and said during his time on this earth that was never written down.John 21:25 Only the most important that God wanted in the bible was put down. It's not preached becuase it's not edifying and therefore I'm in the wrong for even bringing it up. Even though it is likely true. I do agree with you on the book of enoch though i never believed it to be true canon as the book of Enoch doesn't sound anything like the bible.

Nice to meet you too

 

[Christ4Ever]

It will restore my faith in your honesty.

Hold it, hold it...what does Leumas always say to me and I'm sure he won't mind me using it for you "There you go again Leaning to your own understanding"

You do not disappoint that's for sure! lol

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

Hold it, hold it...what does Leumas always say to me and I'm sure he won't mind me using it for you "There you go again Leaning to your own understanding"

You do not disappoint that's for sure! lol

Who cares what Leumas says to you? I have nothing to do with him, nor him with me.
This is about honesty and integrity when dealing with a question that shouldn't even need to be asked, but it does.
Two questions that ANY honest person, let alone Christian ought to be able to answer in a forthright, open, and truthful manner.
Questions that before your Lord and Savior I ask you to honestly answer.
------------
Does this verse not say that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus?

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.​

- Matthew 1:16 KJV

Don't bother with any spin besides yes or no. It will only show a heart that is more like Leumas than Christ.
------------
The second question is like unto the first.

Does this verse not say that Joseph was the father (supposedly) of Jesus?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,​

- Luke 3:23 KJV

Again, any other answer besides yes or no speaks to my PM about Christians being some of the lowest forms of hypocrites on the planet.

So thanks. Let me know if you don't care about being honest and truthful.

Even ignoring this post will give me and everyone, including Christ, an answer.

Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

(as was supposed)

As was supposed... as in "some people thought He was".
But some translations take it a little further and say "as was the custom".
Meaning the genealogy goes through the father's name, even if it's talking about the mother.
There are exceptions (such as Rahab) but only because they were an already established figure in Jewish history.

 

[Rhema]

As was supposed... as in "some people thought He was".

That's obviously a reference to the virgin birth. "Supposed" as opposed to Joseph being the Actual Father.

Meaning the genealogy goes through the father's name, even if it's talking about the mother.

That's fine, as long as one realizes it wasn't talking about the Mothers father.

Both genealogies are of Jesus through Joseph. And shouldn't we be honest about that?

That's all I'm asking.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Does this verse not say that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus?

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.- Matthew 1:16 KJV

Don't bother with any spin besides yes or no. It will only show a heart that is more like Leumas than Christ.

The second question is like unto the first.

Does this verse not say that Joseph was the father (supposedly) of Jesus?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,- Luke 3:23 KJV

Again, any other answer besides yes or no speaks to my PM about Christians being some of the lowest forms of hypocrites on the planet.

So thanks. Let me know if you don't care about being honest and truthful.

Even ignoring this post will give me and everyone, including Christ, an answer.

Why do you try to drag me into the discussion that I was letting you and another beat each other over?
My mistake was asking what I should do about. Not the discussions correctness but rather the issue of uncivility between you both during your back and forth. That was the question that I wanted answered, which was how you can disagree and still be civil about it.

You just didn't believe my asking in the first place was helpful at all. You are of the mind that if I sided with one or the other, that it would correct the issue which is within both of you and not the answer at all. The inability to treat each in love as brothers in Christ which is what you believe you are doing but are not because of the how you are doing it by. Not to lie in agreeing with the other, which is the first thought that pops into your mind I'm sure, but rather to know that by now that it won't be by your words or mine, that he will be of changed of belief, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now that is true and faithful to what I see in both of you.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

You do not disappoint that's for sure! lol

Well you do. Not that you care about my opinion, despite your protestations of love, but I am disappointed.

All I see now is avoidance and hypocrisy.

My mistake was asking what I should do about.

You don't need, nor never needed, to do anything about Bill. He'll believe what he wants to whether it's fantasy or not.

the issue of uncivility between you both during your back and forth. That was the question that I wanted answered, which was how you can disagree and still be civil about it.

I think your incivility meter is broken. But note that I recognized your concern and tried a different approach.

Couldn't get an honest answer out of Bill, and can't get an honest answer out of you.

So thanks. Let me know if you don't care about being honest and truthful.

Thank you for letting me know.

Again, any other answer besides yes or no speaks to my PM about Christians being some of the lowest forms of hypocrites on the planet.

The avoidance of a simple yes or no question is breathtaking.

Not to say disheartening.

Why do you try to drag me into the discussion that I was letting you and another beat each other over?

Handling the scriptures with integrity and truthfulness is a discussion for ALL Christians, regardless.

No Christian should ever try and weasel out of the very two simple questions I asked. It goes to the character of ALL Christians. But your own reluctance to answer a simple honest and open question about your own scriptures speaks to your own character, and that's what's making you feel truly uncomfortable. So I didn't drag you into anything. Your own beliefs did.

But no doubt that you'll characterize the dissuasion in any way you deem fit in order to protect your own self-identity (you've already done so). You see things as a battle between Bill and I. I don't. Never did. This is a battle for simple sanity. For the need to stand for the simple truth that words mean what they say. To stand against a lie that any sane person with a basic level of English comprehension would recognize.

Drag you in? I would have it that ALL believers should be dragged in to dealing with this very issue. To clean their conscience of lies. And if a person doesn't want to do this on his own, why should God then care?

------------
Does this verse not say that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus?

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.​

- Matthew 1:16 KJV

(Does this verse not say that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus?)

------------
Does this verse not say that Jesus, was the (supposed) son of Joseph who was the son of Heli?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,​

- Luke 3:23 KJV

(Does this verse not say that Jesus, was the (supposed) son of Joseph who was the son of Heli?)



Any further concerns that arise from a truthful answer cannot even be discussed if one cannot answer the above two questions truthfully. And I want to know why y'all cannot.

Agape,
Rhema

 

[Bill]

Well ! I am disappointed in .I have seen here so far. Why? Because I have been seeking a Room in which deeper things could be discussed. For example: Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus ? ?

Does This get attention?

Who is Jesus before he was Jesus. Or you mean before he was Jesus the one that we know as the human.

You will find your answer in the Gospel of John in the first chapter. In the beginning was the Word, The Word was with God and the Word was God.

I'm just repeating something I wrote in another thread. But this is the answer that you're seeking.

When we understand Jesus we have to understand that Jesus being the word of God is the same Being who spoke to Noah as well as Abraham and all of the rest of the scripture. We have to understand that Jesus is the Word, and the Word is Jesus.

Jesus tells us, that no one can go to the father but through him. And in Scripture it also tells us that Jesus was not revealed to the Israelites and it wasn't until The Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was. The Messiah.

So we have to understand that the voice of God that we hear in the scripture of the Old Testament is Jesus speaking to Abraham speaking to Moses speaking to all of the prophets and judges and everyone else.

What's also interesting, is that when Jesus speaks to Moses on the mountain Jesus puts himself into the two stone tablets. Because he is the Word of God

 

[Deep Seeker]

Deep Seeker,
This is a topic that I would also like to delve into ...
It seems that the "missing years of Jesus" can be found in Iranian text and I guess in Hewbrew and Greek ... it is a deep topic, and an interesting one. It would be so good to ask more questions and biblical text that is not too clear. There should be no fear in asking questions and to learn together, yes?

JESUA
Indee, It is good to question scriptures; it brings thought!

 

[Question]

He is the only BEGOTTEN son!
He had a BEGINNING!