Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus?

[Rhema]

He is the only BEGOTTEN son!
He had a BEGINNING!

Begotten, though, just means born as a baby by a human woman.
Those who hold to reincarnation (I do not) never really seem to know if they had a beginning or not, or even when their beginning.. uh... began.

Nice to meet you,
Rhema

 

[Question]

Begotten, though, just means born as a baby by a human woman.
Those who hold to reincarnation (I do not) never really seem to know if they had a beginning or not, or even when their beginning.. uh... began.

Nice to meet you,
Rhema

Same to you!

 

[Rhema]

Same to you!

Thank you.

I notice, though, that your profile states Catholic. But Catholicism is rabidly Trinitarian, though, is it not? Therefore Christ would be co-eternal with the ... uh.. other two, having no beginning.

Kind regards,
Rhema

 

[Question]

Thank you.

I notice, though, that your profile states Catholic. But Catholicism is rabidly Trinitarian, though, is it not? Therefore Christ would be co-eternal with the ... uh.. other two, having no beginning.

Kind regards,
Rhema

ONE WAS- no more!

 

[Rhema]

ONE WAS- no more!

From what little you write, then, I am perplexed in that I've never met a Catholic Modalist. Are there a lot of y'all around?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Question]

From what little you write, then, I am perplexed in that I've never met a Catholic Modalist. Are there a lot of y'all around?

Thanks,
Rhema

I made a mistake in signing up- I'm Catholic no MORE!

 

[Rhema]

I made a mistake in signing up- I'm Catholic no MORE!

Well then maybe I misunderstand. Catholics are Trinitarian, no? If you're Catholic, then you're Trinitarian.

The Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is a person of the Godhead who is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

As I understand Catholic doctrine, Jesus does not have a beginning.

I'm not being combative with you. I'm just asking some questions.

Could you please ask your priest if Jesus had a beginning or has always existed? Let me know what he says.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Question]

The Catholic Faiths, as well as most others, has the Goofy Dogma at its core!
Be 'combative' with me as you wish!

 

[Rhema]

The Catholic Faiths, as well as most others, has the Goofy Dogma at its core!

Can't disagree with that. So why are you Catholic then?

Be 'combative' with me as you wish!

Nah, there's really no need. This is, though, a discussion board, so I like to ask questions. (I also answer questions if it won't get me in trouble with the moderators.) I've just never met a Catholic that denied the Trinity. They've been Trinitarian way before 300 AD.

This forum is mostly Protestant (although Bill identifies as a Catholic). And it's also Trinitarian (I am not), so they somewhat discourage discussion about the Trinity.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

so they somewhat discourage discussion about the Trinity.

I would say trinitarian beliefs are encouraged. Non-trinitarian is discouraged.
While there are many protestant denominations... one thing almost all of them agree on is
the diety of Jesus and the trinity. Most go so far as to say it is an absolute requirement for salvation.

 

[Rhema]

I would say trinitarian beliefs are encouraged. Non-trinitarian is discouraged.
While there are many protestant denominations... one thing almost all of them agree on is
the diety of Jesus and the trinity. Most go so far as to say it is an absolute requirement for salvation.

Yes, that's why discussion about the Trinity is discouraged.

Ought I to say, discussion about non-Trinitarian theology is discouraged?

 

[Christ4Ever]

You do not disappoint that's for sure! lol

Well you do. Not that you care about my opinion, despite your protestations of love, but I am disappointed.

All I see now is avoidance and hypocrisy.

Dear Brother...or can I truly be a brother of yours if I am a hypocrite as you believe me to be? Can I ever be trusted in telling you the truth as I believe it to be, as I believe you tell me the truth as you believe it? Even though I may disagree with it, and you with me?
You must believe that God does not actually love us, or I should say ceases to, when we sin or disagree with Him.

My mistake was asking what I should do about.

You don't need, nor never needed, to do anything about Bill. He'll believe what he wants to whether it's fantasy or not.

Why do you try to drag me into the discussion that I was letting you and another beat each other over?
My mistake was asking what I should do about. Not the discussions correctness but rather the issue of uncivility between you both during your back and forth. That was the question that I wanted answered, which was how you can disagree and still be civil about it.

I think your incivility meter is broken. But note that I recognized your concern and tried a different approach.

Couldn't get an honest answer out of Bill, and can't get an honest answer out of you.

Always the lack of context! Without context, then I will do as you ask and do nothing to Bill for his uncivility but will come to my own decision on what to do with yours. Warning, I guess would be appropriate for lack of any other suggestion, and your excusing of Bills.
I'll give it to you shortly after replying to this post.

So thanks. Let me know if you don't care about being honest and truthful.

Thank you for letting me know.

I was but you ignored it, as you usually do when it suits you.
Retrace your steps, and you will find it starting with "Why do you try to drag me,,,"
You'll not force an answer from me, nor involve me in a discussion that I do not want to be a part of.

Again, any other answer besides yes or no speaks to my PM about Christians being some of the lowest forms of hypocrites on the planet.

The avoidance of a simple yes or no question is breathtaking.

Not to say disheartening.

Your inability to accept a no if not in so few words, is not surprising, which I attribute to in the instances when you believe you're right and not so much when you're not. lol

I would have it that ALL believers should be dragged

I didn't realize you're into Self-flagellation!
Context, and you wouldn't have these issues.
Keeping in mind that it is not your place to dictate to anyone much less me, on what one should do or not do. I was clear about not getting involved in the topic and was only addressing your uncivility towards each other. That you find this unacceptable, is your problem and not mine. Stop trying to make it so.

Warning forth coming.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

Dear Brother...or can I truly be a brother of yours if I am a hypocrite as you believe me to be?

Sure, just repent if that's the case.

Look Nick, this was, what, over one week ago. Whatever the conflict I'm sure I've forgotten about it by now.

Can I ever be trusted in telling you the truth as I believe it to be, as I believe you tell me the truth as you believe it? Even though I may disagree with it, and you with me?

Truth is not subjective. Neither is language, or else one could make the text say whatever one wants it to say.

If language is subjective, then as you say, each and every individual would have his or her "own truth," as he or she believes it. And is such is the case, then there is no Truth. So why bother?

This phrase "the truth as I believe it to be" is typically an expression used by the Woke Intelligentsia of Liberal Arts Universities. Is the Gospel of Jesus "truth as he believe it to be"? Or was it true?

You must believe that God does not actually love us, or I should say ceases to, when we sin or disagree with Him.

Well He's certainly not happy about that.

Nor would God be happy with denying the text of the New Testament as it is actually written. Is he? Am I wrong?

Always the lack of context!

Nick, at this point I have my doubts as to whether you truly understand the concept of context (in an academic sense) or not. Perhaps it would be wise of me to never quote your posts, and just reply as I see fit, according to "my truth" of what I think you're saying.

Without context, then I will do as you ask and do nothing to Bill for his uncivility (sic) but will come to my own decision on what to do with yours.

Well there's equanimity for you. I had already addressed your concerns about my incivility in early posts with Bill, and adjusted my verbiage to deal with the issue at hand. I even condensed this down into a rather civil and clear yes and no questions. What possibly could you find wrong with this post?

Questions that before your Lord and Savior I ask you to honestly answer.
------------
Does this verse not say that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, mother of Jesus?

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.​

- Matthew 1:16 KJV
...
------------
The second question is like unto the first.

Does this verse not say that Joseph was the father (supposedly) of Jesus?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,​

- Luke 3:23 KJV

You'll not force an answer from me, nor involve me in a discussion that I do not want to be a part of.

And we both know why.

Agape,
Rhema

Warning forth coming.

(At least this now provides context to your PM.)

 

[Dylan569]

Well ! I am disappointed in .I have seen here so far. Why? Because I have been seeking a Room in which deeper things could be discussed. For example: Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus ? ?

Does This get attention?

Jesus was called the "Son of Man" as well as the "Son of God". Which perspective we use helps with an answer.

Viewing Jesus as “Son of Man”, he began existence at his birth to the Virgin Mary -
Mat 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, who bore Jesus, who is called the Messiah.
Luk 3:23 Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli,

Viewing Jesus as “Son of God”, he had no beginning, as he was God –
Joh 1:18 NRSV No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known.
Joh 1:18 NRSVue No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
Joh 1:1-3 REB In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was. He was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being. (John 1:1-3, REB)

There is another perspective to keep in mind, Jesus is "Jesus the Christ", or "Jesus the Messiah" because the definite article is in the Greek in some verses-
1Jn 5:6 YLT This one is he who did come through water and blood—Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:6 Peshitta/Murdock This is he who came by the water and the blood. Jesus the Messiah; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit testifieth; because the Spirit is truth.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Yet, the Son of Man and the Son of God are one person, one Christ. There is no way our finite, human minds can grasp and fully understand this mystery, so we must take by faith, what we ARE told, whether we can understand it or not. Jesus the Christ is God incarnate. This discussion does cause me to question the expression, "Mary, mother of God".

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother...or can I truly be a brother of yours if I am a hypocrite as you believe me to be? Can I ever be trusted in telling you the truth as I believe it to be, as I believe you tell me the truth as you believe it? Even though I may disagree with it, and you with me?
You must believe that God does not actually love us, or I should say ceases to, when we sin or disagree with Him.

Sure, just repent if that's the case.

Look Nick, this was, what, over one week ago. Whatever the conflict I'm sure I've forgotten about it by now.

Truth is not subjective. Neither is language, or else one could make the text say whatever one wants it to say.

If language is subjective, then as you say, each and every individual would have his or her "own truth," as he or she believes it. And is such is the case, then there is no Truth. So why bother?

This phrase "the truth as I believe it to be" is typically an expression used by the Woke Intelligentsia of Liberal Arts Universities. Is the Gospel of Jesus "truth as he believe it to be"? Or was it true?

Well He's certainly not happy about that.

Nor would God be happy with denying the text of the New Testament as it is actually written. Is he? Am I wrong?

Why should I repent of something you've already forgotten of, and I do not recall ever doing in the first place? Is it possible that it is all made up by you in order to have a discussion that I told you I wasn't going to have with you in the first place?

Yes, truth is not subjective, but when one makes it so on purpose, what does it then become but a lie? The truth in this is that when I started this line of communication with you and Bill, it was about civility and how you were going after each other, and nothing to do with the subject matter being presented. Letting you know that the subject was not something I was going to get involved with, seemed to make little difference to you. You want what you want and that is enough for you.

You are right, that God is not happy about distorting His Word, and yet He still loves us, which I know you agree with, and yet you would disregard another's profession of such love when they disagree with you.

Always the lack of context!

Nick, at this point I have my doubts as to whether you truly understand the concept of context (in an academic sense) or not. Perhaps it would be wise of me to never quote your posts, and just reply as I see fit, according to "my truth" of what I think you're saying.

So, when you chop up what I have written in order to present a different meaning then was intended by me and I tell you that this is what you have done, then I'm the one who is wrong and lacks understanding? If so then you are using academic learning to not understand another's position even if wrong, but only to stroke your own ego. I can't and won't do that even for you Brother. If I was like that, then I'd have banned you long before you professed to being a Flying Spaghetti Monster God Believing individual!

Without context, then I will do as you ask and do nothing to Bill for his uncivility (sic) but will come to my own decision on what to do with yours.

Well there's equanimity for you. I had already addressed your concerns about my incivility in early posts with Bill, and adjusted my verbiage to deal with the issue at hand. I even condensed this down into a rather civil and clear yes and no questions. What possibly could you find wrong with this post?

And we both know why.

Sometimes a fool must show themselves to be a fool, instead of keeping it to themselves. (shhh)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Garee]

Truth is not subjective. Neither is language, or else one could make the text say whatever one wants it to say.

If language is subjective, then as you say, each and every individual would have his or her "own truth," as he or she believes it. And is such is the case, then there is no Truth. So why bother?

This phrase "the truth as I believe it to be" is typically an expression used by the Woke Intelligentsia of Liberal Arts Universities. Is the Gospel of Jesus "truth as he believe it to be"? Or was it true?

Is truth subject to sola scriptura all thinhs writen by the figer of God in the law and prohts or law and teatioy (it was perfectly good)

The "let there be" language of faith.

God's faithful power produces the good law of faith testified by the things seen . providing the hidden understanding. . the eternal things not seen, Not the things seen the temporal dying historical.

All things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) with the warning not to add or subtract from the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the last day under the Sun

The father of lies is not subject to the gospel he has no understanding of faith, the working power of Christ . . . Hearing God's powerful understanding as it is written we can have our gospel rest. .

Mathew 4:1-3 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.;And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.;And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Blinded by the gospel the father of lies falsely prophesied "If you are the Son of man" .if ,if three times .

It is written, it is written and again. three times

It as it is written is used to represent the unseen holy power of Christ understanding making the father of "guessing" Satan . . . .strike out .

Never saw the ball of faith coming. Back to the bottomless dugout .LOL

Mathew 4:10;-11Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

It as it is written the real living Rhema

 

[Rhema]

You are right, that God is not happy about distorting His Word, and yet He still loves us, which I know you agree with, and yet you would disregard another's profession of such love when they disagree with you.

You didn't disagree with the subject we were discussing, you refused to answer because ... you'd just rather ignore it. Come to think of it, maybe it took you off guard because you never encountered the topic before. Whatever. But I didn't drag you into anything, I was hoping to find an honest and truthful Christian. That's all. Apparently that didn't happen.

So, when you chop up what I have written in order to present a different meaning then was intended by me...

I don't do that. And as I've said before, I have no problem letting a third party 10th grade English teacher adjudicate.

That said. I'm sorry you feel that way.

If I was like that, then I'd have banned you long before you professed to being a Flying Spaghetti Monster God Believing individual!

Since I never professed to that, then that just makes you a liar, right?

God bless you,
(I know you're trying.)
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

You are right, that God is not happy about distorting His Word, and yet He still loves us, which I know you agree with, and yet you would disregard another's profession of such love when they disagree with you.

You didn't disagree with the subject we were discussing

Well you do. Not that you care about my opinion, despite your protestations of love, but I am disappointed.

All I see now is avoidance and hypocrisy.

It had all to do with your belief that somehow, I must care about your opinion, in order to love you. One is not predicated upon the other.

you refused to answer because ... you'd just rather ignore it.

Getting involved in every discussion that I look through is not what I do. You just could not accept that one would refuse to answer a question you put forth and why you continue to scratch long after there is a need to.

Come to think of it, maybe it took you off guard because you never encountered the topic before.

It really is incomprehensible to you to think anyone is not interested in a topic that you are about.

But I didn't drag you into anything

Yet, you did try even though I said I wasn't going to!

I was hoping to find an honest and truthful Christian

If it requires them to agree with you, then you probably will fail in your search.

So, when you chop up what I have written in order to present a different meaning then was intended by me...

I don't do that. And as I've said before, I have no problem letting a third party 10th grade English teacher adjudicate.

That said. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Oh, you must certainly do!
I'm still waiting for the last review to be provided by the 10th grade educator you've selected.
Unless you stop doing it, I will always see it that way.

If I was like that, then I'd have banned you long before you professed to being a Flying Spaghetti Monster God Believing individual!

Since I never professed to that, then that just makes you a liar, right?

Is that right???

Flying Spaghetti monster created the world

Since I'm not the liar in this, what does that make you?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

It had all to do with your belief that somehow, I must care about your opinion, in order to love you. One is not predicated upon the other.

Wasn't an opinion Nick. But thank you letting me know you don't care. When I care for someone, I care about all of them.

Getting involved in every discussion that I look through is not what I do. You just could not accept that one would refuse to answer a question you put forth and why you continue to scratch long after there is a need to.

Strange that you brought this back up after over a week had passed, and yet I'm the one scratching? Okay...

It really is incomprehensible to you to think anyone is not interested in a topic that you are about.

Oh I am quite sure that you have no interest in most everything that I am about. I've found that most all Christians are closeminded (to the things that I've found to be highly interesting). I just didn't think that you were. My bad (I guess).

I'm still waiting for the last review to be provided by the 10th grade educator you've selected.

I wasn't to select anything. I merely stated that I was open to such scrutiny, because whomever YOU select could explain things to you. OR present a better account of where the conversation derailed.

Yet, you did try even though I said I wasn't going to!

From your perspective. I'm sorry you feel that way.

If it requires them to agree with you, then you probably will fail in your search.

It requires them to tell the truth rather than to run away. But yes, given that, I probably will fail in my search (to find a truthful Christian).

Is that right???

Yep. You lied.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, including that the Flying Spaghetti monster created the world.

The difference here, is that you've never shown any quote I made that changed the meaning of your statement. You claim this, quite often, but never provided any proof. That's why I said I was open to any qualified review of my posts.

Since I'm not the liar in this, what does that make you?

Yes, you are. I've just shown the proof.

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

It had all to do with your belief that somehow, I must care about your opinion, in order to love you. One is not predicated upon the other.

Wasn't an opinion Nick. But thank you letting me know you don't care. When I care for someone, I care about all of them.

Not that you care about my opinion

Now, I'm starting to care less and less.

It really is incomprehensible to you to think anyone is not interested in a topic that you are about.

Oh I am quite sure that you have no interest in most everything that I am about. I've found that most all Christians are closeminded (to the things that I've found to be highly interesting). I just didn't think that you were. My bad (I guess).

Yes your bad.

I'm still waiting for the last review to be provided by the 10th grade educator you've selected.

I wasn't to select anything. I merely stated that I was open to such scrutiny, because whomever YOU select could explain things to you. OR present a better account of where the conversation derailed.

Something else for you to reread. I know what you meant, but that is not what you wrote.

I probably will fail in my search (to find a truthful Christian).

You are welcome to leave anytime in your search...no one is holding you here.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, including that the Flying Spaghetti monster created the world.

The difference here, is that you've never shown any quote I made that changed the meaning of your statement. You claim this, quite often, but never provided any proof. That's why I said I was open to any qualified review of my posts.

I've done so many times in the past. It is your failure to consider and use text, context, greater context, to understanding what I've written is the very thing that is misleading in your replies. You won't get it, and that has become abundantly clear to me, that you probably never will.

Yes, you are. I've just shown the proof.

1 John 3:10

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><