Who was Jesus, before Being Jesus?
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Dear Brother,
This Doctrine of the Trinity is something that has been discussed amongst those here, and throughout history. So, I won't go over the arguments for or against again. However, I will answer your question, why it can't be accepted? For one verse does not Scripture make nor does one come to complete understanding from only one verse.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
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Nick
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John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Trinitarians don't believe in 3 Gods. It's only one God with three parts. However there is a hierarchy even with the parts of God.
A father, mother and daughter are one family, they aren't three families. But even a single member of that family, has a family.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
"God" made. God made it. God made it all.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
The Word was with God. But the Word was also God.
Susan was with her family. But Susan is also family.
All things came into being through Jesus. Apart from Jesus nothing was created. God created the heavens and the earth.
Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Ergo... Jesus is God.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
By Jesus all things were created. He is before all things. He holds all things together. It's possible the universe would just fly apart without Jesus holding it all together.
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Even the Father calls the Son (Jesus) God.
Trinitarians don't believe in 3 Gods. It's only one God with three parts. However there is a hierarchy even with the parts of God.
A father, mother and daughter are one family, they aren't three families. But even a single member of that family, has a family.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
"God" made. God made it. God made it all.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
The Word was with God. But the Word was also God.
Susan was with her family. But Susan is also family.
All things came into being through Jesus. Apart from Jesus nothing was created. God created the heavens and the earth.
Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Ergo... Jesus is God.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
By Jesus all things were created. He is before all things. He holds all things together. It's possible the universe would just fly apart without Jesus holding it all together.
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Even the Father calls the Son (Jesus) God.
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John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
The Pharisees weren't wrong. Jesus was saying He was equal to God.
John 5:34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
Jesus told them this... so that they might be saved. It is one of the requirements for salvation.
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
All Deity resides in Jesus. Even in His bodily form.
Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be held onto,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus existed in the form of God. Jesus was equal with God.
The Pharisees weren't wrong. Jesus was saying He was equal to God.
John 5:34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
Jesus told them this... so that they might be saved. It is one of the requirements for salvation.
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
All Deity resides in Jesus. Even in His bodily form.
Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be held onto,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus existed in the form of God. Jesus was equal with God.
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This is what it took me a while to understand, and how the Trinity of God, in the three persons could be.
Sadly, to their detriment in knowing God in the fullest, many will not accept this, or be convinced by what you have shown them.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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Not three Gods. One God with three parts.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
One God. Multiple entities.
Exod 3:13 Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Exod 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
One God. Multiple entities.
Exod 3:13 Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Exod 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
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I would add of the same essence.
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Because it goes against Christ!
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How so?
Matt 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matt 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Luke 4:41 Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.
John 11:27 She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Rom 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
1Cor 1:9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silvanus and Timothy—was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.
Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
There are more verses similar to these.
It would seem, this is exactly what makes Him the Christ.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
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But you Trinnies call him "God-the-Son"- opposite.
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So, what makes my answer to your question wrong?
"For one verse does not Scripture make nor does one come to complete understanding from only one verse"
I understand that if we only had that one verse to go by, I might be inclined to agree with what you said, which is a true statement that is found in that verse. However, because it's not just one verse, you should, must, take those others into account as well in coming to a decision as it pertains to who God is.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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It is FAR from one verse!
But isn't this ENOUGH?
NO Bible translation words it diffenently!
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John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
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Dear Question,
First calm down.
Next, state your case. Put out those other verses for review, as others have done before you. All you are doing to this point is putting all your belief in one verse, and one verse alone. Which I have acknowledged is from the little to nothing I know of Greek, translated correctly.
I will end this as I started it, you need to calm down, and present your case with valid scripture, supporting what you believe to be true, so it can be reviewed, and discussed as others have done before you. If you think self-righteousness anger will get you far in this discussion, I tell you it will not. Maybe, if we were all in one room, where your passion, could sway another, it might benefit you, but we are not so it will not move the dial one iota one way or another. In fact, it might hold the very position you believe is true back from even being considered as viable.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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I am not surprised.
Thank you for letting me know that you're close minded. I'll try to remember that.
I know exactly what I wrote, and I can prove it. Just do a search on my posts using "GRADE ENGLISH TEACHER"
These are all the posts I made to you. That's it. In open forum and PM, only three (3).
Where in the above posts did I ever state that I would select a 10th grade English teacher as you claimed here?
What the hey, Nick?
Either provide the proof or repent.
For some particular reason I don't quite understand, God is.
I have asked for an example, and all you do is claim that you've provided one. The next time you think I have misrepresented any of your posts out of context, quote the relevant part and explain why. But I don't take things out of context. It would be suicide for an academic to do so.
Matthew 7:5
Rhema
At this point I will adhere to the moderator directives that such interpersonal tiffs be moved to PM.
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Can you define the word apostle and show how it is used? Who was the first apostle? Was he a second born, if so why?
Thank you for letting me know that you're close minded. I'll try to remember that.
Curtis
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Yes!!
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
