What is the mind of Christ and how do we attain it?

[Faither]

It's 8:30 pm -- I think what you're referring to are the three stages of salvation -- Justification -- we have been saved. sanctification -- we are being saved. glorification -- we Will be saved // that was in the church message two weeks ago.

Not really. Just doing family time tonight and don't want to hurry through it. I'll post it tomorrow around noon your time.

 

[Sue D.]

Oops -- sorry for interrupting. And, no it shouldn't be hurried through.

Okay

 

[Faither]

Oops -- sorry for interrupting. And, no it shouldn't be hurried through.

Okay

It's not really a matter of hurrying through it, but how to present it to you. I've spent 33 years thinking about Christ,, Faith, the Holy Spirit, and how they all fit into the salvation process.

After 25 years of seemingly thinking about this every second of every day, I had to get it all out of my head. So I put onto paper all the pieces to the process. It took 30 pages of detailed experience and learning.

The easiest way to share this with you is to just email it to you. But I'll try and simplify it drastically to see if your interested in knowing more.

The words I use are a lame attempt to describe something indescribable. So forgive my lack of communication in that area.

I've broken down the salvation process into 5 specific phases, things that must happen and happen in the correct order.

1) nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them . So in the first phase if we are being called out, we are one of the lucky ones. Only a small group are called out from among a larger group of people who are not called out.

In this first phase we also turn in our mind from our way to the way of the caller. This is simply known as an act of repentance.

No Holy Spirit given yet in phase one.

2) phase two is where we respond to the call of the Father with our first act of Faith, our first act of faithing, our first act of pisteuo, our first act of surrendering our lives to Him.

In this second phase, a " genuine " surrendered life must be offered to Christ. If Christ deems our surrendered life as genuine due to the decisions we've made supporting the surrendered life, He moves us forward to phase 3.

No Holy Spirit given in phase two.

3) phase three is the testing ground, or what Jesus calls the parable of the sower. Here in the parable of the sower, three out of the four surrendered lives will fail and only one will move onto the next phase.

Note: If the Holy Spirit is given in phase one at a moment of belief, " believe and recieve" the 3 that fail in the testing phase would fail with the Spirit of Christ in them. I don't think anyone would agree with that. One of the aspects I was referring to.

No Holy Spirit given in phase three.

4) The one good soil that moves forward is moving into the grafting phase. This is where the genuine, tested, surrendered life is being cut from the old life and grafted onto Christ. The most important time in the grafting process is in the very beginning when the new shoot is connecting to the old branch.

No Holy Spirit given in phase four.

5) phase five is where Christ accepts the surrendered life completely. He does this by sealing His Spirit into the surrendered vessel, making the vessel and life His. At this point in the journey, it is harder to get out of God's will for that surrendered life than it is to stay in it.

During all the phases, the common thread is "pisteuo" , a Continually surrendered life. If the surrender stops, salvation stops. Even after we receive His Spirit we must continue the surrendered life. And at the same time, Christ is perfecting us, our surrender, our Faith, our faithing, our pisteuo.

To all that have a desire to know more about Christ, you are the called out ones. What I've shared here should be and will be a natural happening. I'm describing this denegraded version of it not to discover some new truth, but to rediscover this old truth. It goes back to the mistranslation of pisteuo I've been discussing with you.

 

[Faither]

Oops -- sorry for interrupting. And, no it shouldn't be hurried through.

Okay

Sue you mentioned the thief on the cross, how Jesus saved him at one moment.

When people use this as an example of salvation, they forget that Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet. What this means is when Jesus told the thief he would be with Him today in paradise, He hadn't consumated the new covenant yet. Jesus could do anything He wanted to do. But after the new covenant was made, only Faith can save. Jesus could not do what He did with the thief after He fulfilled the new covenant.

 

[Sue D.]

I thought you were talking about time with your family in family devotional time. Didn't want to interrupt That.

It IS where we place our faith that Will / Does save a person.

The convicting / drawing power of the Holy Spirit -- that is a 'must'. And actually -- out of the millions / billions of people born into this world -- the verse that says the gate to hell is wide and easy to find -- but the gate to heaven is narrow and easily missed. Paraphrased a lot , but the idea is there. Basically what you're saying. -- to finish my thought -- a 'few' are a LOT of people. Satan is busy trying to side-track everyone he possibly can so that in the End , he won't be alone in hell.

your phase #2 part -- "If Christ deems our surrendered life as 'genuine' due to the surrendering decisions we've made to support the surrendering life ....." That sounds a lot like a works-based salvation. --- God knows our heart -- there's no trial run period ---- there's no works on our part to contribute To our salvation, per Ephesians 2:8-9 'not of works' lest any man would have something to boast about.

Okay -- the parable of the sower -- obviously the ground that the seed falls on and starts growing in is good seed.

So You're seeing a testing period -- is our decision to surrender Really genuine or not. We are to prove ourselves worthy to God For salvation?!

All of that it 'good-works' based. which means that if we don't 'pass the test' then we aren't rewarded with salvation.

I'm sitting here shaking my head.

You're basing all of this on what you see as a mistranslation of one Greek word "pisteuo". ?! What about all the other Greek words that translate more clearly into English.

Now -- another perspective -- people will either see Christ living in us or they won't. The fruits of the Spirit are found in Galations 5:22-23. Love , joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. If a person's life isn't showing those characteristics, and the person says they have been saved / are a Christian -- Then there is evidence that Maybe that hasn't actually happened with that person. And Then a loving, caring person could take that person aside and share their concern with that person.

And -- when a person Does make a profession of faith --there Needs to be someone coming along side them and discipling them. Godly Christian parents / a pastors' wife or deacon's wife / Sunday School teacher. Some to guide them as they start their Christian life. Their walk with God.

And Never have someone repeat a prayer for their salvation. The person needs to understand what they are doing by praying out loud. Pray before they pray and -- if appropriate-- hold their hands in the praying process. But Be there with that person -- don't be content to 'let me do it later at home'. "Later" may never come.

A surrendered life to Christ is Wonderful -- It Should be. But what does a surrendered life Look like? surrendering to go to the mission field? being a pastor? Being a Godly wife to / with her family? And the Holy Spirit's indwelling a person Will show in their lives.

 

[Faither]

I thought you were talking about time with your family in family devotional time. Didn't want to interrupt That.

It IS where we place our faith that Will / Does save a person.

The convicting / drawing power of the Holy Spirit -- that is a 'must'. And actually -- out of the millions / billions of people born into this world -- the verse that says the gate to hell is wide and easy to find -- but the gate to heaven is narrow and easily missed. Paraphrased a lot , but the idea is there. Basically what you're saying. -- to finish my thought -- a 'few' are a LOT of people. Satan is busy trying to side-track everyone he possibly can so that in the End , he won't be alone in hell.

your phase #2 part -- "If Christ deems our surrendered life as 'genuine' due to the surrendering decisions we've made to support the surrendering life ....." That sounds a lot like a works-based salvation. --- God knows our heart -- there's no trial run period ---- there's no works on our part to contribute To our salvation, per Ephesians 2:8-9 'not of works' lest any man would have something to boast about.

Okay -- the parable of the sower -- obviously the ground that the seed falls on and starts growing in is good seed.

So You're seeing a testing period -- is our decision to surrender Really genuine or not. We are to prove ourselves worthy to God For salvation?!

All of that it 'good-works' based. which means that if we don't 'pass the test' then we aren't rewarded with salvation.

I'm sitting here shaking my head.

You're basing all of this on what you see as a mistranslation of one Greek word "pisteuo". ?! What about all the other Greek words that translate more clearly into English.

Now -- another perspective -- people will either see Christ living in us or they won't. The fruits of the Spirit are found in Galations 5:22-23. Love , joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. If a person's life isn't showing those characteristics, and the person says they have been saved / are a Christian -- Then there is evidence that Maybe that hasn't actually happened with that person. And Then a loving, caring person could take that person aside and share their concern with that person.

And -- when a person Does make a profession of faith --there Needs to be someone coming along side them and discipling them. Godly Christian parents / a pastors' wife or deacon's wife / Sunday School teacher. Some to guide them as they start their Christian life. Their walk with God.

And Never have someone repeat a prayer for their salvation. The person needs to understand what they are doing by praying out loud. Pray before they pray and -- if appropriate-- hold their hands in the praying process. But Be there with that person -- don't be content to 'let me do it later at home'. "Later" may never come.

A surrendered life to Christ is Wonderful -- It Should be. But what does a surrendered life Look like? surrendering to go to the mission field? being a pastor? Being a Godly wife to / with her family? And the Holy Spirit's indwelling a person Will show in their lives.

Only the mistranslated English words believe, believer, and believing demand work or effort to be separated from pisteuo or faithing. The Greek doesn't allow that! You don't have true Faith until a decision is made and the will is engaged in agreement with what the mind believes in.

Grace and Faithing are two separate things. Grace is something only Christ can do, and Faith and faithing is something we must do. Because pisteuo or faithing takes work and effort ( 95% courage, 4% tinacity, 1% everything else) doesn't mean the surrendered life is trying to add to Grace, the surrendered life is just fulfilling pisteuo. Fulfilling the required response mandated by God.

The parable of the sower is a testing ground for the surrendered life, not some kind of testing our worthyness. Remember, a truly surrendered life doesn't belong to the one surrendering anymore, it belongs to God now. The three soils that failed took their lives back. And because they don't have the Spirit of Christ sealed in them yet, they can begin the process over again as long as the Father continues to draw them.

A Continually surrendered life is contrary to a " works based salvation" , because why would we work to benefit a life that is nolonger ours?

 

[Sue D.]

@Faither -- Regarding the thief on the cross. He was probably the last of the Old Testament people who placed his faith in Christ while on the cross. Jesus Christ , Himself told him that that very day -- He would be in Paradise with him. Meaning that the thief would die and go to Paradise and when Jesus Christ died and went To Paradise to get those Out of Paradise to bring them back up with Him. That the thief would be amongst them.

 

[Sue D.]

Faither -- salvation is so simple that a child can understand and accept Christ.


Ephesians 2:8 - 9 "For by grace you have been saved, through faith -- not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-----

Okay -- God's grace = unmerited favor being shown by God. That we don't deserve anything that God has done For us. through 'faith' =- Where are we placing our faith? in the shed blood of Christ being sufficient? And where do we Get our faith -- it comes through hearing God's Word.

Have been researching more -- found Christian Publishing House Blog -- Apologetics. = the meaning Of is the context -- It Could be in the dative case Or the accusative case.

Believing In or On. It's a very good article.

 

[Br. Bear]

1) nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them . So in the first phase if we are being called out, we are one of the lucky ones. Only a small group are called out from among a larger group of people who are not called out.

In this first phase we also turn in our mind from our way to the way of the caller. This is simply known as an act of repentance.

No Holy Spirit given yet in phase one.

2) phase two is where we respond to the call of the Father with our first act of Faith, our first act of faithing, our first act of pisteuo, our first act of surrendering our lives to Him.

In this second phase, a " genuine " surrendered life must be offered to Christ. If Christ deems our surrendered life as genuine due to the decisions we've made supporting the surrendered life, He moves us forward to phase 3.

No Holy Spirit given in phase two.

3) phase three is the testing ground, or what Jesus calls the parable of the sower. Here in the parable of the sower, three out of the four surrendered lives will fail and only one will move onto the next phase.

Note: If the Holy Spirit is given in phase one at a moment of belief, " believe and recieve" the 3 that fail in the testing phase would fail with the Spirit of Christ in them. I don't think anyone would agree with that. One of the aspects I was referring to.

No Holy Spirit given in phase three.

4) The one good soil that moves forward is moving into the grafting phase. This is where the genuine, tested, surrendered life is being cut from the old life and grafted onto Christ. The most important time in the grafting process is in the very beginning when the new shoot is connecting to the old branch.

No Holy Spirit given in phase four.

5) phase five is where Christ accepts the surrendered life completely. He does this by sealing His Spirit into the surrendered vessel, making the vessel and life His. At this point in the journey, it is harder to get out of God's will for that surrendered life than it is to stay in it.

During all the phases, the common thread is "pisteuo" , a Continually surrendered life. If the surrender stops, salvation stops. Even after we receive His Spirit we must continue the surrendered life. And at the same time, Christ is perfecting us, our surrender, our Faith, our faithing, our pisteuo.

To all that have a desire to know more about Christ, you are the called out ones. What I've shared here should be and will be a natural happening. I'm describing this denegraded version of it not to discover some new truth, but to rediscover this old truth. It goes back to the mistranslation of pisteuo I've been discussing with you.

Greetings Faither,

I see what you are trying to put together and understand that you have spent many years doing so.

While some of what you present seems sound, it does have a few sink holes in it, which perhaps you are still trying to fill? Or have you decided to ignore them because your ability to jump has increased over time? Or maybe, that only giving a brief run down on your findings does not allow for a fuller 'explanation' ? [please understand that i am not having a go at you]

As you present 5 stages and the need to progress from stage zero [ooops, you left that out] it makes sense to look at each stage and bomb proof it properly, as you probably agree.

Would you like to start another thread on this, presenting your five stages [unless there are more?] as it is worth discussing and deserves a separate thread to do so and give it due diligence.
We can link it to this thread so nothing is lost, so to speak.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Faither]

Greetings Faither,

I see what you are trying to put together and understand that you have spent many years doing so.

While some of what you present seems sound, it does have a few sink holes in it, which perhaps you are still trying to fill? Or have you decided to ignore them because your ability to jump has increased over time? Or maybe, that only giving a brief run down on your findings does not allow for a fuller 'explanation' ? [please understand that i am not having a go at you]

As you present 5 stages and the need to progress from stage zero [ooops, you left that out] it makes sense to look at each stage and bomb proof it properly, as you probably agree.

Would you like to start another thread on this, presenting your five stages [unless there are more?] as it is worth discussing and deserves a separate thread to do so and give it due diligence.
We can link it to this thread so nothing is lost, so to speak.


Bless you ....><>

Of course.

If you see holes in my understanding, please present where you see a joke and give a better understanding. This is why I put my understanding on the table to be tested by others. Ultimately , to know Him better.

 

[Faither]

Greetings Faither,

I see what you are trying to put together and understand that you have spent many years doing so.

While some of what you present seems sound, it does have a few sink holes in it, which perhaps you are still trying to fill? Or have you decided to ignore them because your ability to jump has increased over time? Or maybe, that only giving a brief run down on your findings does not allow for a fuller 'explanation' ? [please understand that i am not having a go at you]

As you present 5 stages and the need to progress from stage zero [ooops, you left that out] it makes sense to look at each stage and bomb proof it properly, as you probably agree.

Would you like to start another thread on this, presenting your five stages [unless there are more?] as it is worth discussing and deserves a separate thread to do so and give it due diligence.
We can link it to this thread so nothing is lost, so to speak.


Bless you ....><>

Still waiting for you to start a new thread so you can show me where the " sink holes " are in my understanding. It looks like you just wanted to detail the conversation because you can't replace my understanding with a better one.

 

[Faither]

Faither -- salvation is so simple that a child can understand and accept Christ.


Ephesians 2:8 - 9 "For by grace you have been saved, through faith -- not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-----

Okay -- God's grace = unmerited favor being shown by God. That we don't deserve anything that God has done For us. through 'faith' =- Where are we placing our faith? in the shed blood of Christ being sufficient? And where do we Get our faith -- it comes through hearing God's Word.

Have been researching more -- found Christian Publishing House Blog -- Apologetics. = the meaning Of is the context -- It Could be in the dative case Or the accusative case.

Believing In or On. It's a very good article.

Whether gender, tense, or cases, it's always a Continually surrendered life.

Even if a child could understand the Gospel and make a decision to except Christ ( which they can't) it wouldn't cause Christ to accept a luke warm act of Faithing like that.

 

[Br. Bear]

@Faither
Greetings,

Still waiting for you to start a new thread so you can show me where the " sink holes " are in my understanding. It looks like you just wanted to detail the conversation because you can't replace my understanding with a better one.

Thank you for your kind post.
I have been waiting for you, also, and keeping rather busy. I am glad you are still here, though. I thought i might have upset you and was somewhat sad if i had.

Grace and peace to you


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Whether gender, tense, or cases, it's always a Continually surrendered life.

Even if a child could understand the Gospel and make a decision to except Christ ( which they can't) it wouldn't cause Christ to accept a luke warm act of Faithing like that.

Greetings,

a child would not be luke-warm as such. The Bible tells us that the Lord woill spew such out. Not a very fitting description for children, who have less guile than the average adult.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Faither]

@Faither
Greetings,



Thank you for your kind post.
I have been waiting for you, also, and keeping rather busy. I am glad you are still here, though. I thought i might have upset you and was somewhat sad if i had.

Grace and peace to you


Bless you ....><>

I don't have the knowledge to link subject matter onto another thread as you requested. So I figured you were going to do that for the topic.

 

[Faither]

Greetings,

a child would not be luke-warm as such. The Bible tells us that the Lord will spew such out. Not a very fitting description for children, who have less guile than the average adult.


Bless you ....><>

Sues description.

EDIT: no, it was not Sue's description.
Faither wrote:
Even if a child could understand the Gospel and make a decision to except Christ ( which they can't) it wouldn't cause Christ to accept a luke warm act of Faithing like that.

 

[Faither]

Greetings,

a child would not be luke-warm as such. The Bible tells us that the Lord woill spew such out. Not a very fitting description for children, who have less guile than the average adult.


Bless you ....><>

What about those sink holes?

 

[Sue D.]

Okay, this is why I camp on the word pisteuo.

Contrary to popular understanding, just because someone hands you a Bible and says accept what's in it, doesn't make it ours.

If we don't have the Spirit of Christ in us, and we are not in Him, He is none of ours. What this means is if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.

I've shown that the Word that communicates how we receive the Spirit of Christ ( pisteuo ) has been mistranslated into the English language. There is no believe and recieve! I've also shown what the correct understanding should be, as shown in the Greek dictionary.

If someone has yet to fulfill true pisteuo, God is still waiting for that someone to respond in saving Faith. So, they are still at the drawing of the Father stage of the salvation journey. They have yet to begin a Continually surrendered life, so no Holy Spirit has been given yet, which means Christ , His word, and the promises in His word are not theirs to even talk about yet.

So I don't talk with anyone about God's word until they can show it's theirs. By a right understanding of Faith and faithing. Pistis and Pisteuo.

If you have questions concerning pisteuo, I'm willing to discuss them.

I've been looking back to where this discussion started -- I've Googled // 'pisteuo' from 4102 -- to have faith (in, upon or with respect to a person or thing. ie: credit, by implication, to entrust ----believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with.

I think what you're saying is that if a person doesn't have the Spirit of Christ -- then Christ, His word -- Then the promises in His Word are not ours yet?!

The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

But 'we' can't even Talk about 'this' without .......?

It feels like you're 'operating' under a false premise of some kind. But I can't put my finger on it exactly. You're trying to put your own 'twist' on this.?!

 

[Faither]

I've been looking back to where this discussion started -- I've Googled // 'pisteuo' from 4102 -- to have faith (in, upon or with respect to a person or thing. ie: credit, by implication, to entrust ----believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with.

I think what you're saying is that if a person doesn't have the Spirit of Christ -- then Christ, His word -- Then the promises in His Word are not ours yet?!

The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

But 'we' can't even Talk about 'this' without .......?

It feels like you're 'operating' under a false premise of some kind. But I can't put my finger on it exactly. You're trying to put your own 'twist' on this.?!

Pisteuo is 4100 in the Strongs. I've been studying every aspect of pisteuo for over 30 years. The fact your just googling it doesn't get me very excited. I thought you were going to point out the " sink holes " in my understanding? You got my hopes up that I might get to know Him better!

 

[Sue D.]

Whether gender, tense, or cases, it's always a Continually surrendered life.

Even if a child could understand the Gospel and make a decision to except Christ ( which they can't) it wouldn't cause Christ to accept a luke warm act of Faithing like that.

One of the things that I don't with you on is that a child can't really accept Jesus Christ as his/ her own personal Savior and be Real about it. Everyone is to be continually growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There Is an age of acountability -- where a child or slightly older child is aware of right and wrong and that They Personally Have done wrong things. Children are capable of understanding Lots more than we adults give them credit for.

And at times , it's Easier for a child To accept Christ because they haven't lived long enough to have much to be feeling guilty about and feel unworthy of Christ.

And I'm also going to share that I feel you're going off a bit to say that a child's faith would be luke-warm 'act of faithing' -- that it wouldn't be doing the cause of Christ any good. I've raised four children.

that which my youngest daughter experienced was the good intentions of a Sunday School teacher who had the children pray a prayer with her and then told them that they were saved. That messed my daughter up until she was an adult.