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We are not Like Jesus !!!

The comment was made by At Peace,
"We must ask for the Holy Ghost in order for it to be given."
B-A-C said...
Here we go again.
The 120 people in the upper room in Acts 2. The 11 apostles (minus Judas) and Mary were there.
Were they saved before this day? The apostles had already been following Jesus for 3 years.
Were they ever baptized in the Holy Spirit before this day?

So, when did this change over to the Baptism of the holy spirit? What in the world does that have to do with asking for the holy spirit? Yes they were saved before that day, they believed in Christ so they were saved! What are you getting at? The Baptism was for empowerment, not for salvation.

B-A-C again...
OK, so that was the first time for anyone (except Jesus and John the Baptist (Luke 1:15)) to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Why has the discussion suddenly changed to the baptism of the holy spirit? The comment was made that we have to ask for the holy spirit for it to be given. I hope that in that illustrious Pentecostal mind of yours you do see a difference.
B-A-C again...
No one in the Bible received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the instant they were saved.
Saul (who became Paul) meets Jesus on the road to Damascus, in Acts 9:3-7;
But Paul doesn't receive the Holy Spirit until at least 3 days later ( Acts 9:17; )

In Acts 8 Philip and Peter go to Samaria. Some people there had already "received" the word fo God.
They had already been baptized in the name of Jesus ( Acts 8:16; )
But they don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until Acts 8:17;

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

In all 5 instances above, people were saved for a while before they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
There is no place in the Bible it says people get baptized in the Holy Spirit just because they believe in Jesus.

Either you don't understand what "At Peace" said when he said you have to ask for the holy spirit, or you're confusing the indwelling of the holy spirit with the baptism of the holy spirit.

But I'm curious, where does the bible state we have to ask for the baptism of the holy spirit in order to be baptized in the holy spirit?
 
The Baptism was for empowerment,
Absolutely yes!!!

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Being born of the Spirit, and being empowered by the Holy Spirit are two different things.
 
Greetings,




that's right. Outward looks are also of no use.


Bless you ....><>
In post 35 you were referring to bad people who became believers who didn't experience the baptism of the holy spirit but had a change of heart. I don't understand how B-A-C could come back and say,
There are many moral people in the world, some love other people. Some give to charities, orphans and widows.
They are very nice loving people. Some never lie, steal, cheat of their wives, or murder anyone.

But they don't know Jesus. They don't need Jesus, they don't want Jesus.
Is loving your neighbor alone enough? Or does what you believe matter?
I don't know if he just doesn't read replies well or if he just fires from the hip.
 
Jesus's disciples did not get born again on the day of Pentecost, they simply received power as the Holy Spirit came upon them. This is why Jesus told his followers to wait in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high! (Luke 24:49)

Nobody was born again until after Jesus had risen from the dead.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was NOT Pentecost, but the new birth as only the Holy Spirit can do using the Word of God that they had already received. They were "born of the Spirit" as Jesus said.
 
Jesus refers what it is like when a person receives "everlasting life" (new birth)

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Now Jesus refers to what it is like when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

There is a huge difference between a "water springing up into everlasting life", and a "rivers of living water" flowing out from within themselves to the outside.

Notice: Jesus said that those who believe in him (pas-tense) "should receive". It is not a guaranteed that those who are saved will get the power of the Holy Spirit unless they know about, and receive it by faith.
 
Nobody was born again until after Jesus had risen from the dead.

Is that what Jesus inferred to Nicodemus?

Curtis said,

Notice: Jesus said that those who believe in him (pas-tense) "should receive". It is not a guaranteed that those who are saved will get the power of the Holy Spirit unless they know about, and receive it by faith.

This is a prime example of a comment someone makes without utilizing one very simple virtue of a hermeneutic, i.e. "LOOK AT THE LEXICONS!"

The word should is a very bad translation. The interlinear uses the word(s) "WERE ABOUT"...

…"WHICH THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM WERE ABOUT TO RECEIVE."

emellon G3195 vi Impf Act 3 Pl WERE-ABOUT

Strong's 3195, mello

to be about
to be on the point of doing or suffering something
to intend, have in mind, think to
 
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[QUOTE="BLACKSHEEP, post: 308124, member: 33540"

This is a prime example of a comment someone makes without utilizing one very simple virtue of a hermeneutic, i.e. "LOOK AT THE LEXICONS!"

The word should is a very bad translation. The interlinear uses the word(s) "WERE ABOUT"...

…"WHICH THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM WERE ABOUT TO RECEIVE."

Strong's 3195, mello

to be about


    • to be on the point of doing or suffering something
    • to intend, have in mind, think to
[/QUOTE]

The Complete Word Study.

should

μέλλω
méllō; imperf. émellon or ḗmellon, fut. mellḗsō. To be about to do or suffer something, to be at the point of, to be impending, followed by the inf.
 
Greetings B-A-C,

you know that your reply had nothing to do with what i posted here in this thread.

So, why do it?

Try a little loving, God doesn't mind.


Bless you ....><>

I wonder of some people high up on there pedestal ever imagine they to can be human (non perfect) when they make sarcastic snide remarks or maybe they think its different when they do it ? Me I am guilty of it and try to do better but my no means perfect

Bless you ....
 
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If you say 'works' are the works of Mosaic law in Eph. 2:8-9, then why is the letter addressed to the Ephesians where it was mostly Greeks, and why is faith and grace part of the equation? "Lest ANY MAN should boast," can't imply Mosaic law when verse 10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Since gentiles did not keep the law, and Jesus fulfilled the Law, and the works of the law are not implied in verse 8-9, and since there were very few Jews in Ephesus,... then faith, grace, and works apply to people who are saved i.e. believers/Christians, whether Jew or gentile.
If the "works" of Eph 2 were not "of the Law", what were they?
We both know, I hope, that the "good works" of verse 10 are the result of out turn to God and not the cause of our acceptance by God.
I don't feel that the "works"of verse 9 refer to those of verse 10.
Especially since Paul again refers to the Law in verses 14, 15, and 16.
 
You have got to be a Pentecostal.
Nope, I don't tolerate sin.

If we have Jesus in us, we don't need to ask for the Holy Spirit. If Jesus abides in us, the Holy Spirit is always available to us.
Got any verses attesting to that?

“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9). If you know Jesus, the Holy Spirit already lives within you.
You are confusing "knowing Him" and "having Him within you".
Got a verse saying how we get 'Jesus' inside us?

Pentecostal's like to use these verses to support the idea that we have to ask for the holy spirit.
Luke 11:13. “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.”
OR...
'how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him” (7:11).
THE HOLY SPIRIT OPERATES IN THE LIVES OF BELIEVERS WHETHER WE ASK FOR IT OR NOT.
That's not what the verses you posted say.
In fact, the words you posted were spoken by Jesus Himself !
I don't understand why someone who has turned from sin and had all their past sins washed away WOULDN'T ask for the Holy Spirit?
 
I wonder of some people high up on there pedestal ever imagine they to can be human (non perfect) when they make sarcastic snide remarks or maybe they think its different when they do it ? Me I am guilty of it and try to do better but my no means perfect

Bless you ....


Greetings Dave,

I see you are putting me in my place again, thank you.

You might be somewhat mistaken, though, but thank you anyway for your kind remarks.


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings Curtis,

I have read this a couple of times or so and am a bit stuck.

Jesus's disciples did not get born again on the day of Pentecost, they simply received power as the Holy Spirit came upon them. This is why Jesus told his followers to wait in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high! (Luke 24:49)

Did you mean to write that as it came out? I am not picking, Curtis. I wondered if maybe you made a typo sort of thing? And if so, I can correct it for you?
Jesus's disciples did not get born again on the day of Pentecost, they simply received power as the Holy Spirit came upon them.
Nobody was born again until after Jesus had risen from the dead.

'Pentecost' was after Jesus had risen.
Perhaps you were referring to when He breathed on them?

Grace and Peace.


Bless you ...><>
 
Greetings Jim,

But I'm curious, where does the bible state we have to ask for the baptism of the holy spirit in order to be baptized in the holy spirit?

Perhaps this is close?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? Luke 11:13


Bless you ....><>
 
Nope, I don't tolerate sin.


Got any verses attesting to that?


You are confusing "knowing Him" and "having Him within you".
Got a verse saying how we get 'Jesus' inside us?



That's not what the verses you posted say.
In fact, the words you posted were spoken by Jesus Himself !
I don't understand why someone who has turned from sin and had all their past sins washed away WOULDN'T ask for the Holy Spirit?
I have a "better" question...
Are God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit "one" or not?
 
The comment was made by At Peace,

B-A-C said...



B-A-C again...

Why has the discussion suddenly changed to the baptism of the holy spirit? The comment was made that we have to ask for the holy spirit for it to be given. I hope that in that illustrious Pentecostal mind of yours you do see a difference.
B-A-C again...


Either you don't understand what "At Peace" said when he said you have to ask for the holy spirit, or you're confusing the indwelling of the holy spirit with the baptism of the holy spirit.

But I'm curious, where does the bible state we have to ask for the baptism of the holy spirit in order to be baptized in the holy spirit?
hmmm as I recall some gentiles with peter didn't ask for the holy spirit but they received the holy spirit and peter spoke "who can forbid water"? for them to be baptized seems a strange thing to not "grasp" the "difference" between "accepting" and "asking"...
accepting pretty much means that a person agrees with and chooses to keep something, asking pretty much is requesting permission or finding out something or requesting to have something instead of being "given" it.
 
Greetings Dave,

I see you are putting me in my place again, thank you.

You might be somewhat mistaken, though, but thank you anyway for your kind remarks.


Bless you ....><>

Bear my apologies if I was mistaken :) I hope I have your compassion and loving response when some one puts me in my place that I am sure is needed from time to time
 
If the "works" of Eph 2 were not "of the Law", what were they?

Works that are the result of doing good for God and one another. Good deeds, the evidence that something significant has taken place in a believers life.

  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2041&t=KJ
We both know, I hope, that the "good works" of verse 10 are the result of out turn to God and not the cause of our acceptance by God.
I don't feel that the "works" of verse 9 refer to those of verse 10.
Especially since Paul again refers to the Law in verses 14, 15, and 16.

The context of the chapter is believers. The context of verse 8-9 are those who are "saved by grace through faith". Not Jews or Jewish law.

Even the context of verse 15 isn't only about the Law of Moses, it's barely alluded to. Verses 13-18 are about Christ reconciliation of Jew and Gentile.
 
Greetings Jim,



Perhaps this is close?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him? Luke 11:13


Bless you ....><>

I know what you're saying....
If we ask for more of Jesus...if we ask for love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness etc., we ask for the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the spirit is the evidence of Jesus and the holy spirit in our lives. When we seek God, we seek His holy Spirit. When we ask for good things, they all come from His spirit. We don't have to ask for the Holy Spirit specifically, we only have to ask for the godly things the Holy Spirit gives in fruit and gifts.

Mathew Henry

We must not only ask, but we must seek, in the use of means, must second our prayers with our endeavours; and, in asking and seeking, we must continue pressing...
 
Greetings Curtis,

I have read this a couple of times or so and am a bit stuck.



Did you mean to write that as it came out? I am not picking, Curtis. I wondered if maybe you made a typo sort of thing? And if so, I can correct it for you?
Jesus's disciples did not get born again on the day of Pentecost, they simply received power as the Holy Spirit came upon them.
Nobody was born again until after Jesus had risen from the dead.

'Pentecost' was after Jesus had risen.
Perhaps you were referring to when He breathed on them?

Grace and Peace.


Bless you ...><>

There are a few things required before a person can be born again. (1) they have to hear the Word of God, and receive it. (2) they need to believe what they heard. (3) Then the Holy Spirit which takes the Word of God and causes the new birth. (born of the Spirit)
Jesus must have died, buried, and rise from the dead before the Holy Spirit can create a new heart. Jesus did not tell his followers to "tarry" in Jerusalem until they were born again, but tarry until they were endued with power from on high. Jesus's followers became born again when he (Jesus) breath upon them, and said, "receive ye the Holy Spirit" after his resurrection. Remember Jesus said, " you do not put new wine in old wine skins, but in new wine skins". (Matt 9:17) A person must be born again first before they can be filled with the Holy Spirit. (new wine)

There were three thousand saved on the day of Pentecost, but the 120 in the upper room were not any of them.
 
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