We are not Like Jesus !!!

[At Peace]

Ok. Now show me, if you will, where does God tell us to do all the cleaning up in our selves.

Sure, it is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38))
Repent of sin, quit sinning.
Get baptized, crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts, being washed by the blood of Christ and sanctified for God's uses.
Receive the Holy Ghost, be armed to fight for the soul's future and final judgement.

I mean, if we could do it, we would not need a savior.

Au contraire mon frere.
Jesus gave us all the gifts I mentioned above, but especially the ability and honor of partaking in His death, burial, and resurrection...to walk in newness of life.
Without Jesus, the gifts are just man's hot air.

We would,or could simply make ourselves acceptable and pay our own penalty for the sin in our lives. But the Word says that Jesus is the Way, the truth, the life. The Word says we e renew our minds with the washing of water by the Word, the Word does the renewing, not us. We do not kill the old man, he died just like the wages of sin demands. All we have to do is to discipline ourselves to get into the pool of His Word and obey it. Am I wrong?

Not at all wrong, but for everything Jesus does for us a reciprocation is implied for us to accomplish.
He gave us the gift of repentance from sin.
But we must repent.
He gave us baptism in His name for the remission of sins.
But we must get baptized.
He makes the Holy Ghost-Comforter available to us.
But we must have a clean residence available for His residency.
We must ask for the Holy Ghost in order for it to be given.

Some say that Jesus "does it all".
But that is a bit of a misnomer.
Better said would be..."Jesus makes it all available to us: Do your part!"

 

[B-A-C]

He gave us baptism in His name for the remission of sins.
But we must get baptized.
He makes the Holy Ghost-Comforter available to us.
But we must have a clean residence available for His residency.
We must ask for the Holy Ghost in order for it to be given.

Some say that Jesus "does it all".
But that is a bit of a misnomer.
Better said would be..."Jesus makes it all available to us: Do your part!"

Ha... (not really funny, but... )
The classic argument of Cavinism/Monogerism.

Those who believe in OSAS can't really believe these statements. They can't afford to.
If any part of our salvation depends on you. It's possible you might fail. Therefore... it's all up to God alone.

I tend to agree with you here. But the mantra here is Ephesians 2:8-9; they will say we are saved by grace and not by works.
It has been debated many times is obeying God (the commandments) really a work? Or just something we are expected to do.

 

[At Peace]

Ha... (not really funny, but... )
The classic argument of Cavinism/Monogerism.
Those who believe in OSAS can't really believe these statements. They can't afford to.
If any part of our salvation depends on you. It's possible you might fail. Therefore... it's all up to God alone.
I tend to agree with you here. But the mantra here is Ephesians 2:8-9; they will say we are saved by grace and not by works.
It has been debated many times is obeying God (the commandments) really a work? Or just something we are expected to do.

The "works" being referred to by Paul is the Mosaic Law.
If obedience to the commands of the apostles were counted as "works", (including repentance from sin and baptism), why are chapters 4, 5, and 6 full of commandments for us to adhere to?.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

The "works" being referred to by Paul is the Mosaic Law.

The letter wasn't written to Jews but all believers. Ephesus was full of Greeks, and the recipients of the letter included more than those in Ephesus.

WORKS...
business, employment, that which any one is occupied that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work.

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

In Paul's letter to the Colossians there is a reference to a letter he wrote to the Laodiceans. Our Bible does not include an epistle called "A Letter to the Laodiceans," but many have felt that it is the same one we call "The Letter to the Ephesians."

Ray Stedman

 

[At Peace]

The letter wasn't written to Jews but all believers. Ephesus was full of Greeks, and the recipients of the letter included more than those in Ephesus.

WORKS...
business, employment, that which any one is occupied that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work.

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.
In Paul's letter to the Colossians there is a reference to a letter he wrote to the Laodiceans. Our Bible does not include an epistle called "A Letter to the Laodiceans," but many have felt that it is the same one we call "The Letter to the Ephesians."
Ray Stedman

See if that applies to the references to the "works of the law" in Romans 9, and Gal 2 & 3.
Not to mention all the commandments listed in Eph 4, 5, and 6.

 

[At Peace]

Ok. Now show me, if you will, where does God tell us to do all the cleaning up in our selves. I mean, if we could do it, we would not need a savior. We would,or could simply make ourselves acceptable and pay our own penalty for the sin in our lives. But the Word says that Jesus is the Way, the truth, the life. The Word says we e renew our minds with the washing of water by the Word, the Word does the renewing, not us. We do not kill the old man, he died just like the wages of sin demands. All we have to do is to discipline ourselves to get into the pool of His Word and obey it. Am I wrong?

Acts 2:38 fills the bill..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Our Savior made it possible to be washed of our past sins by His blood...through our baptism into His death, burial, and resurrection..."to walk in newness of life".{Rom 6:3-7)
He is indeed the Door, but we need to go through it.

 

[B-A-C]

We are told to keep the commandments over a dozen times in the new testament.

Matt 5:19; Matt 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:22; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12;

1 Cor 7:19; appears to separate the Jewish ceremonial law (circumcision, etc... ) from the other commandments.
Works.."of the flesh" generally means your flesh as in foreskin of circumcision.

1 John 2:4; says if we don't keep the commandments... we don't know Jesus.

1 John 3:24; says "IF" we keep them, them He will abide in us. (as opposed to, if we "don't" keep them).

The entire book of Galatians is really about circumcision. ( Gal 2:3; Gal 2:8; Gal 2:9; Gal 2:12; Gal 5:2; Gal 5:3; Gal 5:6; Gal 5:11; Gal 6:15; )
It seems that Gal 2:16; also separates "works of the law" from the commandments.

It could be argued that Gal 3:2; (in the context of the verses around it) is also about circumcision. Also Gal 3:10; as well.

 

[Dovegiven]

Ok. Now show me, if you will, where does God tell us to do all the cleaning up in our selves. I mean, if we could do it, we would not need a savior. We would,or could simply make ourselves acceptable and pay our own penalty for the sin in our lives. But the Word says that Jesus is the Way, the truth, the life. The Word says we e renew our minds with the washing of water by the Word, the Word does the renewing, not us. We do not kill the old man, he died just like the wages of sin demands. All we have to do is to discipline ourselves to get into the pool of His Word and obey it. Am I wrong?

1 Corinthians 2:16 (KJV)
16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

None of us became "mindless" when baptized into Christ. However, we have through the Word the same thinking of Jesus who minded righteousness instead of perpetual carnality. That new mindset is the route the Holy Spirit in us teaches us righteousness consciousness. It takes time to train our stinkin' thinkin' mindset to agree with Jesus'.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

See if that applies to the references to the "works of the law" in Romans 9, and Gal 2 & 3.
Not to mention all the commandments listed in Eph 4, 5, and 6.

OK, lets see...

This all started because you said about the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9...

The "works" being referred to by Paul is the Mosaic Law.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph. 2:15 says...

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This has no bearing as to the word works in verse 8-9 because "GRACE" covers both Jew and Gentile, and WORKS are in the context of that verse.

GUZICK...
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances: The source of contention between Jew and Gentile was the fact that the Gentiles did not keep the law. But since Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, and since He bore the penalty for our failure to keep the law, we are reconciled through His work on the cross – putting to death the source of contention.

Study Guide for Ephesians 2 by David Guzik

NOTICE the bold...
Lexicon :: Strong's G3551 - nomos
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
of any law whatsoever
a law or rule producing a state approved of God
by the observance of which is approved of God
a precept or injunction
the rule of action prescribed by reason
of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
the Christian religion:
the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

Did you get it? The only time the word, "nomos" indicates Mosaic Law is when it is the context suggest it.
You quoted Romans 9...So lets, "See if that applies to the references to the "works of the law" in Romans 9, and Gal 2 & 3.."
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:4 uses the word nomothesia, and it's only used ONCE in the NT right here in Roman's 9:4,...
Lexicon :: Strong's G3548 - nomothesia.....it means...
law giving, legislation

Romans 9:31-32 uses the word 'nomos' where the context DOES imply Israel!

Rom 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

V. 31-32 uses the word NOMOS. Remember what vines says about NOMOS?
of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents.
Yep! In Romans 9:31-32 it refers to the Mosaic law.

Remember how this one started? You said the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9...

The "works" being referred to by Paul is the Mosaic Law.

So I challenge you to show me where in the context of Eph. 2 the word WORKS implies Israel or the Mosaic Law when GRACE covers both Jew and Gentile!
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[At Peace]

OK, lets see...
This all started because you said about the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9...
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph. 2:15 says...
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This has no bearing as to the word works in verse 8-9 because "GRACE" covers both Jew and Gentile, and WORKS are in the context of that verse.

GUZICK...
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances: The source of contention between Jew and Gentile was the fact that the Gentiles did not keep the law. But since Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, and since He bore the penalty for our failure to keep the law, we are reconciled through His work on the cross – putting to death the source of contention.

Study Guide for Ephesians 2 by David Guzik

NOTICE the bold...
Lexicon :: Strong's G3551 - nomos
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
of any law whatsoever
a law or rule producing a state approved of God
by the observance of which is approved of God
a precept or injunction
the rule of action prescribed by reason
of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
the Christian religion:
the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

Did you get it? The only time the word, "nomos" indicates Mosaic Law is when it is the context suggest it.
You quoted Romans 9...So lets, "See if that applies to the references to the "works of the law" in Romans 9, and Gal 2 & 3.."
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:4 uses the word nomothesia, and it's only used ONCE in the NT right here in Roman's 9:4,...
Lexicon :: Strong's G3548 - nomothesia.....it means...
law giving, legislation

Romans 9:31-32 uses the word 'nomos' where the context DOES imply Israel!

Rom 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

V. 31-32 uses the word NOMOS. Remember what vines says about NOMOS?
of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents.
Yep! In Romans 9:31-32 it refers to the Mosaic law.

Remember how this one started? You said the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9...

So I challenge you to show me where in the context of Eph. 2 the word WORKS implies Israel or the Mosaic Law when GRACE covers both Jew and Gentile!
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

A problem Paul was confronting was the Judaizers who were trying to bring Gentiles into the bondage of the Law.
This is especially evident in Galatians.
In Eph 2, verses 15 mentions "the law of commandments contained in ordinances", and the abolishing of "that enmity" in order to make Gentile and Jew "fellow citizens" of "the household of God".

If you feel something else is the point of "works", what is it?

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

A problem Paul was confronting was the Judaizers who were trying to bring Gentiles into the bondage of the Law.
This is especially evident in Galatians.
In Eph 2, verses 15 mentions "the law of commandments contained in ordinances", and the abolishing of "that enmity" in order to make Gentile and Jew "fellow citizens" of "the household of God".

If you feel something else is the point of "works", what is it?

If you say 'works' are the works of Mosaic law in Eph. 2:8-9, then why is the letter addressed to the Ephesians where it was mostly Greeks, and why is faith and grace part of the equation? "Lest ANY MAN should boast," can't imply Mosaic law when verse 10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Since gentiles did not keep the law, and Jesus fulfilled the Law, and the works of the law are not implied in verse 8-9, and since there were very few Jews in Ephesus,... then faith, grace, and works apply to people who are saved i.e. believers/Christians, whether Jew or gentile.

It's easier to take a sliver out of the backside of a wildcat than it is to change the mind of most Christians!

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Great discussion

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

At Peace said,

We must ask for the Holy Ghost in order for it to be given.

You have got to be a Pentecostal.

If we have Jesus in us, we don't need to ask for the Holy Spirit. If Jesus abides in us, the Holy Spirit is always available to us.

“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9). If you know Jesus, the Holy Spirit already lives within you.

Pentecostal's like to use these verses to support the idea that we have to ask for the holy spirit.

Luke 11:13. “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.”

OR...

'how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him” (7:11).

THE HOLY SPIRIT OPERATES IN THE LIVES OF BELIEVERS WHETHER WE ASK FOR IT OR NOT.

 

[B-A-C]

Pentecostal's like to use these verses to support the idea that we have to ask for the holy spirit.

Here we go again.

The 120 people in the upper room in Acts 2. The 11 apostles (minus Judas) and Mary were there.
Were they saved before this day? The apostles had already been following Jesus for 3 years.
Were they ever baptized in the Holy Spirit before this day?

OK, so that was the first time for anyone (except Jesus and John the Baptist (Luke 1:15)) to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

In Acts 10, we have a Gentile named Cornelius, who was a devout God fearing man who prayed continually. (Acts 10:1-2; )
But Cornelius and his family aren't baptized with the Holy Spirit until Acts 10:44-46;

In Acts 19, Paul runs across some disciples at Ephesus (Acts 19:1; )
They were believers that had already been baptized in water (John's Baptism) but they didn't even know there was
a Holy Spirit. They don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until Acts 19:6;

No one in the Bible received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the instant they were saved.

Saul (who became Paul) meets Jesus on the road to Damascus, in Acts 9:3-7;
But Paul doesn't receive the Holy Spirit until at least 3 days later ( Acts 9:17; )

In Acts 8 Philip and Peter go to Samaria. Some people there had already "received" the word fo God.
They had already been baptized in the name of Jesus ( Acts 8:16; )
But they don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until Acts 8:17;

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

In all 5 instances above, people were saved for a while before they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
There is no place in the Bible it says people get baptized in the Holy Spirit just because they believe in Jesus.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

not disputing anyone but putting it out there, not because i believe it to be contrary to what anyone has said so far, but simply to add some dimension or whatever...

so, what about the many who on believing something happens in and with them... something supersonically, supernaturally, impossible with man, super radical happens and they never look back?

If that is not the Holy Ghost, who or what is it and how can we explain it, especially to those poor people whose lives have been changed since that moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

I have known many very unsavoury men, the sort you do not ever want anyone you love to be even near who have had that experience. They go from being detestable, hateful and dangerous to loving, kind worshipper's of Jesus whose worship leaves that of the many, dead, if it were possible (I think you know what i mean)

If it isn't the Holy Ghost delivering them from addictions and violence and immorality, and vice... what then?
Since they never turn back to the old ways..... since they go around telling everyone how much Jesus loves them (the other people) and proclaim His name, since they pour over Scriptures, since they exhibit love, especially considering they did not before conversion.... (and for those who think tongues is a sign, some even do all that, too) and some haven't until that point had a decent wash for a very long time let alone get any sort of baptism. I know some who have had this experience of joyful liberation and change completely on their own.
Are they deluded?


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

I have known many very unsavoury men, the sort you do not ever want anyone you love to be even near who have had that experience. They go from being detestable, hateful and dangerous to loving, kind

There are many moral people in the world, some love other people. Some give to charities, orphans and widows.
They are very nice loving people. Some never lie, steal, cheat of their wives, or murder anyone.

But they don't know Jesus. They don't need Jesus, they don't want Jesus.
Is loving your neighbor alone enough? Or does what you believe matter?

I am copyiing the below from another thread, because it seems to be the theme of the day.

I didn't realise they were separate.
I figured that if you didn't love others you aint loving God.
I am sure it is written through and through.

Even if you are loving others, does that mean you "are" loving God?
I realize what separates the sheep and goats, but are actions alone enough?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings B-A-C,

you know that your reply had nothing to do with what i posted here in this thread.

So, why do it?

Try a little loving, God doesn't mind.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

because it seems to be the theme of the day.

what? Love? Perhaps you ought to take that one out with God Who so loved you while you were yet a sinner... and Who commands us to... love?

I am copyiing the below from another thread

I see you left out some parts....

If you take the loving others part out of Scripture you wouldn't have much of a Bible left.

Bless you B-A-C ....><>

 

[Curtis]

Outward actions are not enough. It is the intents and purposes of the heart that God looks at.

1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Outward actions are not enough. It is the intents and purposes of the heart that God looks at.

1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

that's right. Outward looks are also of no use.


Bless you ....><>