The Gospel of Satan

[Boanerges]

These are just my opinions ( in blue) my friend and I respect the right you have to yours.

The word angel simply means messenger; many time there are heavenly messengers as well as in some cases earthy messenger, you must weigh each verse closely.

NT:32

aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggello [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:

True that is one definition but only one. Using the wrong definiton of a Greek or Hebrew word can cause much confusion.

From the Vines Expository Dictionary of The Bible:
Angel

mal'ak (H4397), "messenger; angel." In Ugaritic, Arabic, and Ethiopic, the verb le'ak means "to send." Even though le'ak does not exist in the Hebrew Old Testament, it is possible to recognize its etymological relationship to mal'ak. In addition, the Old Testament uses the word "message" in Hag_1:13; this word incorporates the meaning of the root le'ak, "to send." Another noun form of the root is mela'kah, "work," which appears 167 times. The name Malachi—literally, "my messenger"—is based on the noun mal'ak.
The noun mal'ak appears 213 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. Its frequency is especially great in the historical books, where it usually means "messenger": Judges (31 times), 2 Kings (20 times), 1 Samuel (19 times), and 2 Samuel (18 times). The prophetical works are very moderate in their usage of mal'ak, with the outstanding exception of the Book of Zechariah, where the angel of the Lord communicates God's message to Zechariah. For example: "Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked to me, `What are these, my lord?' And the angel answered and said unto me, `These are the four spirits [pl. of mal'ak] of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth'" (Zec_6:4-5).
The word mal'ak denotes someone sent over a great distance by an individual (Gen_32:3) or by a community (Num_21:21), in order to communicate a message. Often several messengers are sent together: "And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers [pl. of mal'ak] and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease" (2Ki_1:2). The introductory formula of the message borne by the mal'ak often contains the phrase "Thus says...," or "This is what...says," signifying the authority of the messenger in giving the message of his master: "Thus saith Jephthah, Israel took not away the land of Moab, nor the land of the children of Ammon" (Jdg_11:15).
As a representative of a king, the mal'ak might have performed the function of a diplomat. In 1Ki_20:1 ff., we read that Ben-hadad sent messengers with the terms of surrender: "He sent messengers to Ahab king of Israel into the city, and said unto him, Thus saith Benhadad..." (1Ki_20:2).
These passages confirm the important place of the mal'ak. Honor to the messenger signified honor to the sender, and the opposite was also true. David took personally the insult of Nabal (1Sa_25:14 ff.); and when Hanun, king of Ammon, humiliated David's servants (2Sa_10:4 ff.), David was quick to dispatch his forces against the Ammonites.
God also sent messengers. First, there are the prophetic messengers: "And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy" (2Ch_36:15-16). Haggai called himself "the messenger of the Lord," mal'ak Yahweh.
There were also angelic messengers. The English word angel is etymologically related to the Greek word angelos, whose translation is similar to the Hebrew: "messenger" or "angel." The angel is a supernatural messenger of the Lord sent with a particular message. Two angels came to Lot at Sodom: "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground..." (Gen_19:1). The angels were also commissioned to protect God's people: "For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways" (Psa_91:11).
Third, and most significant, are the phrases mal'ak Yahweh, "the angel of the Lord," and mal'ak 'elohim, "the angel of God." The phrase is always used in the singular. It denotes an angel who had mainly a saving and protective function: "For mine angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off" (Exo_23:23). He might also bring about destruction: "And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces" (1Ch_21:16).
The relation between the Lord and the "angel of the Lord" is often so close that it is difficult to separate the two (Gen_16:7 ff.; Gen_21:17 ff.; Gen_22:11 ff.; Gen_31:11 ff.; Exo_3:2 ff.; Jdg_6:11 ff.; Jdg_13:21 ff.). This identification has led some interpreters to conclude that the "angel of the Lord" was the pre-incarnate Christ.
In the Septuagint the word mal'ak is usually translated by angelos and the phrase "angel of the Lord" by angelos kuriou. The English versions follow this twofold distinction by translating mal'ak as simply "angel" or "messenger" (KJV, RSV, NASB, NIV)


Angel

angelos (G32), "a messenger" (from angello, "to deliver a message"), sent whether by God or by man or by Satan, "is also used of a guardian or representative in Rev_1:20, cf. Mat_18:10; Act_12:15 (where it is better understood as 'ghost'), but most frequently of an order of created beings, superior to man, Heb_2:7; Psa_8:5, belonging to Heaven, Mat_24:36; Mar_12:25, and to God, Luk_12:8, and engaged in His service, Psa_103:20. "Angels" are spirits, Heb_1:14, i.e., they have not material bodies as men have; they are either human in form, or can assume the human form when necessary, cf. Luk_24:4, with Luk_24:23, Act_10:3 with Act_10:30.
"They are called 'holy' in Mar_8:38, and 'elect,' 1Ti_5:21, in contrast with some of their original number, Mat_25:41, who 'sinned,' 2Pe_2:4, 'left their proper habitation,' Jud_1:6, oiketerion, a word which occurs again, in the NT, only in 2Co_5:2. Angels are always spoken of in the masculine gender, the feminine form of the word does not occur."*
* From Notes on Thessolonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 229.
Note: Isangelos, "equal to the angels," occurs in Luk_20:36.


This was not a translation from the Greek, but instead the transliteration took the Greek word “aggelos” and concocted the word angel which simply means messenger.

Yes Satan fought the Arch Angel Michael; but if you notice Satan was referred to as Satan, the devil or the dragon never and arch angel or Lucifer.


I believe many give Satan far too much power; Satan has no power unless God ordains that power. Satan cannot be an angel in his beginning; all beings have one beginning except God who has always been here.


Agreed Satan is on a short leash and God is in control. Satan's every attack just causes us to draw near our God and in that he is his own worst enemy.




Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

One must assume that Satan is the one being referred to in Isaiah 54:16 for your assumption to be true. Most commentators seem to agree that this is refering to soldiers and not angelic beings.
(See God created Satan as a distroyer)


How can Lucifer be Satan if God created Satan as a destroyer? Can Satan have two beginnings; sounds pretty impossible.

Again this is an assumption based of your view of the word waster. There are no translations that I am aware of that concur with this assumption:
Isa 54:16

(ASV) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(BBE) See, I have made the iron-worker, blowing on the burning coals, and making the instrument of war by his work; and I have made the waster for destruction.

(CEV) Don't forget that I created metalworkers who make weapons over burning coals. I also created armies that can bring destruction.

(Darby) Behold, it is I who have created the smith that bloweth in the fire of coal, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to ravage.

(ESV) Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

(GNB) "I create the blacksmith, who builds a fire and forges weapons. I also create the soldier, who uses the weapons to kill.

(GW) I've created blacksmiths to fan the coals into flames and to produce useful weapons. I've also created destroyers to bring destruction.

(HOT) הן אנכי בראתי חרשׁ נפח באשׁ פחם ומוציא כלי למעשׂהו ואנכי בראתי משׁחית לחבל׃

(HOT+) הןH2005 אנכיH595 בראתיH1254 חרשׁH2796 נפחH5301 באשׁH784 פחםH6352 ומוציאH3318 כליH3627 למעשׂהוH4639 ואנכיH595 בראתיH1254 משׁחיתH7843 לחבל׃H2254

(JPS) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(KJV) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(KJV+) Behold,H2009 IH595 have createdH1254 the smithH2796 that blowethH5301 the coalsH6352 in the fire,H784 and that bringeth forthH3318 an instrumentH3627 for his work;H4639 and IH595 have createdH1254 the wasterH7843 to destroy.H2254

(KJVA) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(LITV) Behold, I have created the smith who blows the coal in the fire, and who brings out a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(LXX) ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ κτίζω σε, οὐχ ὡς χαλκεὺς φυσῶν ἄνθρακας καὶ ἐκφέρων σκεῦος εἰς ἔργον· ἐγὼ δὲ ἔκτισά σε οὐκ εἰς ἀπώλειαν φθεῖραι

(MKJV) Behold, I have created the smith who blows the coals in the fire, and who brings out a tool for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(RV) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(Vulgate) ecce ego creavi fabrum sufflantem in igne prunas et proferentem vas in opus suum et ego creavi interfectorem ad disperdendum

(Webster) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

(YLT) Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.
In fact the definition to the word waster is simply

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
H7843
שׁחת
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

There is no direct link between the word waster and Satan.


<o> </o>
<o> </o>
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in <st1:city><st1lace>Eden</st1lace></st1:city> the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.



These two verses say nothing about Satan; they are speaking of Lucifer.


Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is <st1:time hour="14" minute="12">14:12</st1:time> are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.


Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" <st1lace>Rotherham</st1lace>"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"

Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.


<st1:time hour="22" minute="16">Rev 22:16</st1:time> I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of <st1:city><st1lace>Babylon</st1lace></st1:city>. The word itself means the morning star. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)




Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.

See God's Word does it again and declares Satan's beginnings were a murderer not an angel; SO WHAT IS IT?????





1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

I keep finding these verses that declares Satan was something other then an Arch Angel in his beginning; I say again can Satan have two beginnings?


I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning of source. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar.

Which one was he?

Obviously Satan is the great deceiver; could it be he has deceived the vast majority of God’s people to believe he was an angel of light; when all he has ever been is a deceiver, a liar and a murderer?

Continued in my next post

 

[Boanerges]

Personally, I believe that it is no more a stretch to believe that Satan and Lucifer are the same as it is to believe that Satan and the Waster are the same.


From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament:
Satan

satan (H7854), "adversary; Satan." This word appears 24 times in the Old Testament. Most uses of the term relate to the cosmic struggle in the unseen world between God and the opposing forces of darkness.
In Psa_38:20, David cried out because he was the target of attack by his "adversaries." Possibly David suffered because of mistakes he made; and within the permissive will of God, He used David's enemies to discipline His servant.
In another psalm of distress by an individual, a godly man expressed his deep faith in the Lord. The writer prayed concerning those who were "adversaries" to his soul: "Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonor that seek my hurt" (Psa_71:13). He expressed the reality of the powers of darkness against an individual who sought to live for God.
Imprecatory psalms call for judgment upon one's enemies, reflecting the battle in the unseen world between darkness and light. David's enemies became his "adversaries," but he continued to pray for them (Psa_109:4). Because those enemies repaid him evil for good and hatred for his love, the king prayed: "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand" (Psa_109:6). When they spoke evil against his soul, David called for the Lord's reward against his "adversaries" (Psa_109:20), and finally, became David's accusers had intended him so much harm, he asked that his accusers be clothed with shame and dishonor (Psa_109:29). In all of these passages, God worked indirectly by permitting individuals to act as "adversaries" of His people.
In another instance, David was merciful with members of Saul's family who cursed him and wished him harm when he fled from Absalom (2Sa_16:5 ff.). David restrained his army commanders from killing Saul's family who had repented of their misdeeds. The king did not want his officers to be his "adversaries" on the day of victory and joy (2Sa_19:22).
God can also be the "adversary." When Balaam went to curse the sons of Israel, God warned him not to do so. When the prophet persisted, God disciplined him: "And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him" (Num_22:22). God stood as an "adversary" because no curse could undo the covenants and agreements already made with Israel.
God took up a controversy with Solomon. When Solomon added more and more pagan wives to his harem, God was greatly displeased (Deu_17:17). But when the king built pagan shrines for his wives, God raised up "adversaries" against him(1Ki_11:14), a direct action which caused the Edomites and Syrians to revolt against Israel.
Another special instance of intervention was the occasion when "...Satan [literally, "an adversary"] stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1Ch_21:1). (No definite article is here in Hebrew and, therefore, "an adversary" is in mind.) In a parallel passage the Lord moved David to number Israel and Judah (2Sa_24:1). Even as the Lord stirred up an "adversary" against Solomon, so here God took a direct action to test David to help him learn a vital lesson. God tests believers to help them make the right choices and not depend upon their own human strength.
In the Book of Job, the word Satan always has the definite article preceding it (Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-7), so the term emphasizes Satan's role as "the adversary." God permitted Satan to test Job's faith, and the adversary inflicted the patriarch with many evils and sorrows. Satan was not all-powerful because he indicated that he could not get beyond God's protection of Job (Job_1:10). He penetrated the "hedge" only with God's permission and only for specific instances that would demonstrate God's righteousness. Job became the battleground between the forces of darkness and light. He learned that Satan could be defeated by making the right choices and that God can be glorified in every circumstance.
Zechariah recorded a vision of "...Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him" (literally, "be his adversary"; Zec_3:1). The Lord rebuked "the adversary" (Zec_3:2). Satan was once again in conflict with God's purposes and the angels of God, but "the adversary" was not all-powerful and was subject to rebuke by God Himself.
A general usage of satan ("adversary") appears in 1Ki_5:4 : "But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary or evil occurrent." In another instance, David went over to the side of the Philistines; in attempting to fight with them against Israel, some of the Philistine leaders doubted David's sincerity and felt that he would be "an adversary" in any battle between the two armies (1Sa_29:4).
In the Septuagint, the word is diabolos.

 

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From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:
Satan

satanas (G4567), a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), "an adversary," is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num_22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1Sa_29:4; Psa_38:20; Psa_71:13; four in Psalm 109; (c) of "Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zec_3:1, where the name receives its interpretation, "to be (his) adversary," RV (see marg.; KJV, "to resist him").
In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, e.g., Mat_4:10; Mat_12:26; Mar_1:13; Mar_3:23, Mar_3:26; Mar_4:15; Luk_4:8 (in some mss.); Luk_11:18; Luk_22:3; Joh_13:27; (b) of His people, e.g., Luk_22:31; Act_5:3; Rom_16:20; 1Co_5:5; 1Co_7:5; 2Co_2:11; 2Co_11:14; 2Co_12:7; 1Th_2:18; 1Ti_1:20; 1Ti_5:15; Rev_2:9, Rev_2:13 (twice), Rev_2:24; Rev_3:9; (c) of mankind, Luk_13:16; Act_26:18; 2Th_2:9; Rev_12:9; Rev_20:7.
His doom, sealed at the Cross, is foretold in its stages in Luk_10:18; Rev_20:2, Rev_20:10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Rom_16:20.
The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Mat_16:23; Mar_8:33.
"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen (Joh_14:30; 2Co_5:21; Heb_4:15); moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. See DEVIL.

 

[Boanerges]

On Satan:

From Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible:

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out - See the notes on Rev_12:3. That there may be an allusion in the language here to what actually occurred in some far distant period of the past, when Satan was ejected from heaven, there can be no reason to doubt. Our Saviour seems to refer to such an event in the language which he uses when he says Luk_10:18, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”; and Jude, perhaps Rev_12:6, may refer to the same event. All that we know on the subject leads us to suppose that at some time there was a revolt among the angels, and that the rebellious part were cast out of heaven, for an allusion to this is not infrequent in the Scriptures. Still the event here referred to is a symbolical representation of what could occur at a later period, when the church would be about to spread and he triumphant, and when Satan would wage a deadly war against it. That opposition would be as if he made war on Michael the archangel, and the heavenly hosts, and his failure would be as great as if he were vanquished and cast out of heaven.
That old serpent - This doubtless refers to the serpent that deceived Eve (Gen_3:1-11; Rev_20:2; compare the notes on 2Co_11:3); and this passage may be adduced as a proof that the real tempter of Eve was the devil, who assumed the form of a serpent. The word “old” here refers to the fact that his appearance on earth was at an early stage of the world’s history, and that he had long been employed in the work which is here attributed to him - that of opposing the church.
Called the devil - To whom the name devil is given. That is, this is the same being that is elsewhere and commonly known by that name. See the notes on Mat_4:1.
And Satan - Another name given to the same being - a name, like the other, designed to refer to something in his character. See it explained in the notes on Job_1:6.
Which deceiveth the whole world - Whose character is that of a deceiver; whose agency extends over all the earth. See the Joh_8:44 note, and 1Jo_5:19 note.
He was cast out into the earth - That is, he was not suffered to pursue his designs in heaven, but was cast down to the earth, where he is permitted for a time to carry on his warfare against the church. According to the interpretation proposed above, this refers to the period when there were indications that God was about to set up his kingdom on the earth. The language, however, is such as would be used on the supposition that there had been, at some period, a rebellion in heaven, and that Satan and his followers had been cast out to return there no more. It is difficult to explain this language except on that supposition; and such a supposition is, in itself, no more improbable than the apostasy and rebellion of man.
And his angels were cast out with him - They shared the lot of their leader. As applicable to the state of things to which this refers, the meaning is, that all were overthrown; that no enemy of the church would remain unsubdued; that the victory would be final and complete. As applicable to the event from which the language is supposed to have been derived - the revolt in heaven - the meaning is, that the followers in the revolt shared the lot of the leader, and that all who rebelled were ejected from heaven. The first and the only revolt in heaven was quelled; and the result furnished to the universe an impressive proof that none who rebelled there would be forgiven - that apostasy so near the throne could not be pardoned.


From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible:
Rev 12:9
Rev_12:9 per Adam Clarke
That old serpent - The rabbins speak much of this being, sometimes under the notion of יצר הרע yetser hara, the evil principle, and sometimes Samael.
He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him - This is very like a saying in the book Bahir, in Sohar Gen., fol. 27, col. 107: “And God cast out Samael and his troops from the place of their holiness.”
Rev_12:9 per John Edward Clarke
And the great dragon was cast out, etc. - By the terms Devil and Satan mentioned in this verse, Pareus, Faber, and many other commentators, understand literally the great spiritual enemy of mankind. But this view of the passage cannot be correct, from the circumstance that it is the dragon which is thus called. Now, if by the dragon be meant the devil, then use are necessarily led to this conclusion, that the great apostate spirit is a monster, having seven heads and ten horns; and also that he has a tail, with which he drags after him the third part of the stars of heaven. The appellations, old serpent, devil, and Satan, must, therefore, be understood figuratively. The heathen power is called that old serpent which deceived the whole world, from its subtlety against the Christians, and its causing the whole Roman world, as far as it was in its power, to embrace the absurdities of paganism. It is called the devil, from its continual false accusations and slanders against the true worshippers of God, for the devil is a liar from the beginning; and it is also called Satan, שטן, which is a Hebrew word signifying an adversary, from its frequent persecutions of the Christian Church. The dragon and his angels are said to be cast out, which is more than was said in the preceding verse. There mention is made of his being found no longer in heaven, or on the throne of the Roman empire, here he is entirely cast out from all offices of trust in the empire; his religion is first only tolerated, and then totally abolished, by the imperial power. This great event was not the work of a reign; it took up many years, for it had to contend with the deep-rooted prejudices of the heathen, who to the very last endeavored to uphold their declining superstition. Paganism received several mortal strokes in the time of Constantine and his sons Constans and Constantius. It was farther reduced by the great zeal of Jovian, Valentinian, and Valens; and was finally suppressed by the edicts of Gratian, Theodosius I., and his successors. It was not till a.d. 388 that Rome itself, the residence of the emperor, was generally reformed from the absurdities of paganism; but the total suppression of paganism soon followed the conversion of the metropolitan city, and about a.d. 395 the dragon may be considered, in an eminent sense, to have been cast into the earth, that is, into a state of utter subjection to the ruling dynasty of Christian emperors.

 

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On Lucifer:
From Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible:
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven - A new image is presented here. It is that of the bright morning star; and a comparison of the once magnificent monarch with that beautiful star. He is now exhibited as having fallen from his place in the east to the earth. His glory is dimmed; his brightness quenched. Nothing can be more poetic and beautiful than a comparison of a magnificent monarch with the bright morning star! Nothing more striking in representing his death, than the idea of that star falling to the earth!
Lucifer - Margin, ‘Day-star’ (הילל hēylēl, from הלל hâlal, “to shine”). The word in Hebrew occurs as a noun nowhere else. In two other places Eze_21:12; Zec_11:2, it is used as a verb in the imperative mood of Hiphil, and is translated ‘howl’ from the verb ילל yālal, “to howl” or “cry.” Gesenius and Rosenmuller suppose that it should be so rendered here. So Noyes renders it, ‘Howl, son of the morning!’ But the common translation seems to be preferable. The Septuagint renders it, Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros, and the Vulgate, ‘Lucifer, the morning star.’ The Chaldee, ‘How art thou fallen from high, who wert splendid among the sons of men.’ There can be no doubt that the object in the eve of the prophet was the bright morning star; and his design was to compare this magnificent oriental monarch with that. The comparison of a monarch with the sun, or the other heavenly bodies, is common in the Scriptures.
Son of the morning - This is a Hebraism (see the note at Mat_1:1), and signifies that that bright star is, as it were, the production, or the offspring of morning; or that it belongs to the morning. The word ‘son’ often thus denotes possession, or that one thing belongs to another. The same star in one place represents the Son of God himself; Rev_21:16 : ‘I am - the bright and morning star.’
Which didst weaken the nations - By thy oppressions and exactions, rendering once mighty nations feeble.



From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible:
Isa 14:12
O Lucifer, son of the morning - The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render הילל heilel as signifying Lucifer, Φωσφωρος, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars, annually in their turn. And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed. But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text. O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture, that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. הילל heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from ילל yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, “Howl, son of the morning;” and so the Syriac has understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under הלל halal.

 

[Boanerges]

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------. These two verses say nothing about Satan; they are speaking of Lucifer. Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.
While it is not the only version that translates him as Lucifer the majority of texts seem to prefer Day Star of Shining one which is not really different than "light bringer".

Isa 14:12

(ASV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

(BBE) How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!

(CEV) You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.

(Darby) How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!

(ESV) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

(GNB) King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

(GW) How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!



Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!" Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!" 2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts. Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon.
Yes this is one application.

The word itself means the morning star. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil? It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such. Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.) Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell) Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. See God's Word does it again and declares Satan's beginnings were a murderer not an angel; SO WHAT IS IT????? 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.. I keep finding these verses that declares Satan was something other then an Arch Angel in his beginning; I say again can Satan have two beginnings? I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning of source. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Obviously Satan is the great deceiver; could it be he has deceived the vast majority of God’s people to believe he was an angel of light; when all he has ever been is a deceiver, a liar and a murderer?

Sorry, i am running out of time this AM. Let me end by saying that I do not disagree with everything you have stated but question several key components on which you build your doctrine. I respect your opinion and will gladly discuss this farther with you later.

Many blessings in His Name,
your brother Larry.

 

[Boanerges]

Okay you quoted this scripture as one of your key proof texts that Lucifer was a man and perhaps this was in reference only to the King of Babylon:
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

If I were to use that same logic then by taking this verse and say that Jesus Christ was only a man although He was that and so much more:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Also if Isaiah 14 were merely talking about only the King of Babylon then these scriptures would be referring to only the King of Tyrus

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

If we looked at these verse the same way you interpreted Isaiah 14 we would have to assume that this King was walking in the Garden which was forbidden after the fall, that he was an anointed angel of God who walked the alter of God, who was perfect before God until he became lifted up in pride.
Perhaps these scriptures have more than one implication.
Anyway these are just some of my thoughts on the subject.
Have a blessed day in Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

 

[Boanerges]

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

From the Strong's Exhaustive concordance of the Bible:
G3789
ὄφις
ophis
of'-is
Probably from G3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan: - serpent.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

The god of this world

One of my Sermon titles for the devil is
Introducing Mr. Self A.K.A. the devil

 

[matrixlad]

Wow, very impressive ! i stand a little confused in the sense of which church is of Jesus and which is of the devil ?

 

[matrixlad]

Confused !

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied (preached) in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out demons, and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Yes, my reader, it is possible to work in the name of Christ, and even to preach in His name, and though the world knows us, and the Church knows us, yet to be unknown to the Lord! How necessary it is then to find out where we really are; to examine ourselves and see whether we be in the faith; to measure ourselves by the Word of God and see if we are being deceived by our subtle Enemy; to find out whether we are building our house upon the sand, or whether it is erected on the Rock which is Christ Jesus.
May the Holy Spirit search our hearts, break our wills, slay our enmity against God, work in us a deep and true repentance, and direct our gaze to the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.[/QUOTE]

Amen Coconut, Great article, you should put a posty on this one.

Exactly ! so how do i know which Church is Jesus Christs Church ?

 

[bamagrad05]

Wonderful Post!

I couldnt agree more. We need more post like this. We need to expose the lies of Satan so we can be saved and enter our Fathers Kingdom for all eternity. I hope the Lord Jesus Chirst take his time coming back, so we can be right with him. We all know that Jesus Christ, when he comes back the Day of the Lord, will be a gnashing of teeth, so I want to make sure Im right with the Lord Jesus.

 

[TheDJ]

Exactly ! so how do i know which Church is Jesus Christs Church ?

I think people get confused as to what the church really is. The first thing that comes to most peoples minds is a church building and their are many, so the question is often which church is the right one etc..

Let me tell you the church is the true born-again believers in Jesus Christ and the church meets at the building. The church can meet anywhere, look at the start of the church in Acts, they would meet in people's houses.

So to answer your question how do you know which church is Jesus Christ's? Well it is all of the true born-again believers in Jesus Christ. They are the church. When the rapture takes place the church is removed. We know it's not the buildings, but the people.

If you are looking for a place to meet with other believers and trying to find the right place, make sure the pastor is preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified! That is the message that needs to be spread around the world. We have so many preachers preaching the money gospel or word of faith, but we need to preach the cross! Find a pastor that is preaching Christ and the true salvation message of the cross.

 

[bamagrad05]

Profit Ministries

I believe that God can answers prayers, and God wants to bless us. But when you look at the rise of homosexals, teen gang rapes, teen sexting and all this other non sense. These ministers need to teach more than just God wants to bless you. They need to teach that God will punish you, God wants you to change, to follow God is to suffer at times. Not all this watered down, blessing, christian hook up mess. I am as lonely as the next guy, have the same sexual urges, and want a wife but all these Christians nowadays have no problem with premartial sex, shacking up or anything.

Then you have the by the book ministers that offer no mercy, grace or love, and that keeps broken people away. Dont get me wrong, I believe in a tight ministry, but you must also encourage people, love them and give them mercy and the enviroment to overcome any sin, insecuirty or whatever it might be.

I know at times in my life my faith as wavered, I have been weak, but I also go back to Christ.

 

[kevinlb63]

the pope

"Holy Father of Fathers."
"Pontiff Supreme Over Prelates."
"Overseer of the Christian Religion."
"Pastor of Pastors."
"Christ by Unction."
"Abraham by Patriachate."
"Melchisedec in Order."
"Moses in Authority."
"Samuel in the Judicial Office."
"High Priest, Supreme Bishop."
"Heir to the Apostles; Peter in Power."
"Key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven."
"Pontiff Appointed with Plenitude of Power."
"Vicar of Christ."
"Vicar of the Son of God."
"Sovereign Priest."
"Head of all the Holy Churches."
"Chief of the Universal Church."
"Bishop of Bishops."
"Ruler of the House of the Lord."
"Apostolic Lord and Father of Fathers."
"Chief Pastor and Teacher."
"Physician of Souls."
"Rock against which the proud gates of hell prevail not."
"Infallible Pope."
"Head of All the Holy Priests of God"
"Chief bridge maker"
Some additional info on "some" of the names:
Pontifix Maximus is a papal title meaning in Latin "chief bridge maker" between earth and heaven.
However, Jesus Christ is the only One who can claim this title because "no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me." John 14:6. This was a title of the Roman Caesars and of the Roman Emperors of paganism.
Holy Father is a title the pope claims for himself. However, this title occurs only once in the Bible,
and used when Jesus addresses His Heavenly Father in John 17:11 in His great prayer before His betrayal,
arrest and crucifixion.
Father is a title that every Roman Catholic priest claims for himself and expects to be called.
Jesus warns in Matthew 23:9 "Call no man your father upon the earth:
for one is your father which is in heaven."
The catholic priest is not regarded in Scripture to be anyone's spiritual father.
Monsignor This means "my Lord", and this clearly is a title belonging only to God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reverend is a title of many Roman Catholic priests and Protestant ministers.
This is also a title for God in Psalms 111:9 "Holy and Reverend is his name.
"It is blasphemy for any man to take to himself a title of God.
"Mother of God" - Title given to Mary which denotes blasphemy,
as it diverts worship to Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ's humanity,
but not the mother of Jesus Christ's divinity.

 

[The Robster]

I believe that God can answers prayers, and God wants to bless us. But when you look at the rise of homosexals, teen gang rapes, teen sexting and all this other non sense. These ministers need to teach more than just God wants to bless you. They need to teach that God will punish you, God wants you to change, to follow God is to suffer at times. Not all this watered down, blessing, christian hook up mess. I am as lonely as the next guy, have the same sexual urges, and want a wife but all these Christians nowadays have no problem with premartial sex, shacking up or anything.

Then you have the by the book ministers that offer no mercy, grace or love, and that keeps broken people away. Dont get me wrong, I believe in a tight ministry, but you must also encourage people, love them and give them mercy and the enviroment to overcome any sin, insecuirty or whatever it might be.

I know at times in my life my faith as wavered, I have been weak, but I also go back to Christ.

It seems you want preachers to teach Law and that doesn't make people Holy. Never has and never will. If you want to combat sin, grace needs to be taught properly. And many American churches FAIL in the grace preaching department. Many are preaching a mixture of grace and Law and then get stumped as to why they don't get results. To teach that to follow God is to suffer at all times, is not even scriptural. You would have enjoyed yourself in the Old Covenant though. :shock:

 

[jiggyfly]

It seems you want preachers to teach Law and that doesn't make people Holy. Never has and never will. If you want to combat sin, grace needs to be taught properly. And many American churches FAIL in the grace preaching department. Many are preaching a mixture of grace and Law and then get stumped as to why they don't get results. To teach that to follow God is to suffer at all times, is not even scriptural. You would have enjoyed yourself in the Old Covenant though. :shock:

I must say that I agree with you on this Robster, that is providing you don't mean that walking with Christ in the new covenant is totally void of suffering.

 

[The Robster]

I must say that I agree with you on this Robster, that is providing you don't mean that walking with Christ in the new covenant is totally void of suffering.

Jiggy I certainly agree that we are going to experience suffering in this life, in our Christian walk. Its part of the deal. I've had my fair share. But I will say, looking back, I suffered a great deal in so many areas because I was very ignorant and didn't follow the Lord's counsel in the Bible nor was I doing so much of what He requests we do fro our own benefit. Specifically, just being worried and concerned about things I shouldn't be. Suffering of some kind is always going to be there but I believe without any doubt that the Word gives us provision to overcome it all. Its not always instantaneous but we can overcome everything through Christ. I agree with many things you post Jiggy. I know that may surprise you but I do.

 

[kevinlb63]

salvation

jesus said go and sin no more!!! when he died for us he did not say we did not have to go buy the law any more !!! you have to believe in him and to not sin !! to not sin! is to obey the law / comandments.. and repent for your sins for we sin every day. we are under salvation and the law.... and why would any one think otherwise...

 

[The Robster]

jesus said go and sin no more!!! when he died for us he did not say we did not have to go buy the law any more !!! you have to believe in him and to not sin !! to not sin! is to obey the law / comandments.. and repent for your sins for we sin every day. we are under salvation and the law.... and why would any one think otherwise...

Galatians 5:4 (Amplified Bible)

<SUP id=en-AMP-29165 class=versenum>4</SUP>If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God's gracious favor and unmerited blessing).

We are NOT under Law. We are not under the Law covenant. We are under a GRACE covenant. Why would you want people to go back under Law to be knocked from Grace and to be exposed to all the curses that came with the Law? You ever wonder why so many Christians are dying of sickness and disease? This should not be happening to people that are redeemed from the Curse of the Law by the blood of Jesus Christ. Why would you want to fall from grace and have Christ's perfect work at the Cross be of no effect in your life? Its madness brother.