Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[spirit1st]

NO USE PREACHING the gospel if it were all said and done!

I do not like argue I understand if the HOLY GHOST does not open the persons EYES , then they never know or fully understand!

I know and am certain GOD is working to get as many as possible into the KINGDOM and HE wants to live though us!

You might as well forget preaching and find a place to sit waiting for your salvation!
then those who think preaching and doing miracles can do there work!

best you just stay out of the way as you see no use in preaching the GOSPEL!

As the Elect in your eyes are going to be Born -Again no matter what!
I Do Not see it that way!

as far as books go to explain GODS LIVING WORD! I never USE ANY! I count on the HOLY GHOST 100%

you will not NEED HIM.Because you can live by other men thinking by using there Books to guide and teach you!

LOTS of folks live by other men writings!

Not being smart about it! It just trusting More in the Holy Spirit than in my little mind or another mans little mind!

I have done all the things GOD said I would in the bible and fine the HOLY SPIRIT the BEST teacher and friend in life!
He is a GREAT HELPER !

I would hate to live on earth without Him!

LOTS on earth think like you do!

Your thinking says there is NO HOPE FOR MOST!No matter what they do they are ALL going to hell then the lake of fire! Only because they were NOT as good as you????

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Of course in your thinking only a few could believe no matter how hard they try they CANNOT BE SAVED ,they were BORN DAMMED and DOOMED!

My thinking tells me from scripture HE died for All mankind and any can repent and be added into HIs family!

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Think GODS playing a trick on those many who were CALLED ,when HE knew they were DAMMED anyway?

I think HE calls all and few Answer HIS LOVING CALL!

OR is GOD a dummy calling folks HE knows cannot enter in?

My LORD died for all willing to accept HIS Gospel and HIM as LORD!

He made it possible for All mankind to enter in!
You can think as You will!

But I know MY FATHER GOD as LOVE ,PURE PERFECT LOVE !
Why would it matter which sinner He accepts when All are sinners ad then He makes us All who are willing BRAND NEW HEAVENLY CREATURE!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Only took ONE sin to destroy an entire planet and everything on it! why would one mans sins be worse than another mans?

 

[Boanerges]

with the idea that you have in your head, the power of salvation is really in your hands. if it is up to the unregenerate man to make the choice to follow Christ, then none would saved. or do you think that a sinful man without the aid of god's grace can indeed make that decision. if you do believe this then you are saying that it was you who chose and therefor you would have something to boast in. and i know that you are going to deny that fact and say that all the credit goes to god. but the fact is that if when you look back on your conversion and say yes it was me that first chose god, you yourself are taking credit for it. i have said it before and i will say it again. which doctrine gives god more glory? a doctrine in which we must first choose him or a doctrine in which he reaches down his holy hand and pulls us out of our sin. the latter is the one that gives him the most glory. we are told to lean not on ourselves. what you are saying is that it is up to us to make that choice and i tell you we cant, and that is why i am so grateful to my heavenly father that he chose me. by using the doctrine of free will we rob god of his sovereignty and his glory. robbing god of his glory is a very grievous sin of which we should all beware of.

and as for the word "any", that refers to a group not a choice

Soli Deo Gloria

If man could not choose the Holy Spirit would not draw but simply command. All glory goes to God as His grace makes it possible for us to be saved. All in the Greek or Hebrew still means all no matter how you backflip, somersault or gyrate.:shock:
If any man is definitely addressing a group- that is mankind.
If any man opens the door, if any man thirsts.
When the scripture plainly declares that Christ died for the sins of the whole world Calvinists have to try to twist that also.
Since the day Adam choose to disobey God man has been choosing. Adam's sin took him form a place of obediance to God to following his own will (the knowledge of good and evil) making his own decisions.
That we have choice is demonstrated from Genesis to Revelations.
That God reacts to our choices is plainly demonstrated here:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Please examine the scripture above (red emphasis mine):
Isaiah plainly demonstrates God chose a destiny for this people because of their choices.
Predestination is according to foreknowledge and that is foreknowledge of their hearts and their choices.

To deny that man chooses and God judges based on his choices would require a pair of scissors to cut out this verse.


Below is a cross comparison of Isaiah 66:4 in multiple translations, man chooses, God is displeased an judges on the basis of that choice:

Isa 66:4

(ASV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Bishops) Therfore wyll I also haue pleasure in laughyng them to scorne, & the thyng that they feare will I bring vpon them: For when I called, no man gaue aunswere, when I spake, they woulde not heare: but did wickednesse before mine eyes, and chose the thynges that displeased me.

(CEV) You refused to answer when I called out; you paid no attention to my instructions. Instead, you did what I hated, knowing it was wrong. Now I will punish you in a way you dread the most.

(Darby) I also will choose their calamities, and will bring their fears upon them; because I called, and none answered, I spoke, and they did not hear, but did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delight not.


(DRB) Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me.

(ESV) I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."

(Geneva) Therefore will I chuse out their delusions, and I will bring their feare vpon them, because I called, and none woulde answere: I spake and they woulde not heare: but they did euill in my sight, and chose the things which I would not.

(GNB) So I will bring disaster upon them---the very things they are afraid of---because no one answered when I called or listened when I spoke. They chose to disobey me and do evil."

(GW) So I will choose harsh treatment for them and bring on them what they fear. I called, but no one answered. I spoke, but they didn't listen. They did what I consider evil. They chose what I don't like.

(HOT) גם־אני אבחר בתעלליהם ומגורתם אביא להם יען קראתי ואין עונה דברתי ולא שׁמעו ויעשׂו הרע בעיני ובאשׁר לא־חפצתי בחרו׃

(HOT+) גםH1571 אניH589 אבחרH977 בתעלליהםH8586 ומגורתםH4035 אביאH935 להםH1992 יעןH3282 קראתיH7121 ואיןH369 עונהH6030 דברתיH1696 ולאH3808 שׁמעוH8085 ויעשׂוH6213 הרעH7451 בעיניH5869 ובאשׁרH834 לאH3808 חפצתיH2654 בחרו׃H977

(JPS) Even so I will choose their mockings, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear, but they did that which was evil in Mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV+) IH589 alsoH1571 will chooseH977 their delusions,H8586 and will bringH935 their fearsH4035 upon them; becauseH3282 when I called,H7121 noneH369 did answer;H6030 when I spake,H1696 they did notH3808 hear:H8085 but they didH6213 evilH7451 before mine eyes,H5869 and choseH977 that in whichH834 I delightedH2654 not.H3808

(KJV-1611) I also will chuse their delusions, and will bring their feares vpon them; because when I called, none did answere, when I spake they did not heare: but they did euill before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJVA) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(LITV) I also will choose their vexations; and I will bring their fears to them; because I called, and no one answered; I spoke, and they did not hear. But they did the evil in My eyes, and chose that in which I had no pleasure.

(LXX) κἀγὼ ἐκλέξομαι τὰ ἐμπαίγματα αὐτῶν καὶ τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀνταποδώσω αὐτοῖς· ὅτι ἐκάλεσα αὐτοὺς καὶ οὐχ ὑπήκουσάν μου, ἐλάλησα καὶ οὐκ ἤκουσαν, καὶ ἐποίησαν τὸ πονηρὸν ἐναντίον μου καὶ ἃ οὐκ ἐβουλόμην ἐξελέξαντο.

(MKJV) I also will choose the things that delude them, and I will bring their fears on them, because I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear. But they did evil before My eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

(RV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Vulgate) unde et ego eligam inlusiones eorum et quae timebant adducam eis quia vocavi et non erat qui responderet locutus sum et non audierunt feceruntque malum in oculis meis et quae nolui elegerunt

(Webster) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before my eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[cman77]

When the scripture plainly declares that Christ died for the sins of the whole world

let me ask you, if Christ sacrifice did indeed pay for the sins of every man that has ever lived, would that not make god unjust? if the debt for all has already been paid then for god to send any to hell would be terribly unjust. if Christ did indeed bore the wrath of ALL men, then what wrath does the father have left for anybody else. the answer to that question is NONE. If Christ Sacrifice was for ALL as you believe it is, and that god wills that all be saved, then Christ's sacrifice was insufficient, in that it has not appeased the wrath of the father, and that mans will is more powerful than gods will. why is it that you refuse to believe a sovereign god would forcefully choose those he wants. i tell you that if it were not for the Holy Spirit "intruding" in my life, i would have never chose of my own accord. Paul wasn't on his way to Damascus to find God, in fact he was going there to persecute his people. and what did god do? hm? I do believe that God intruded into Paul's life. but then again i forgot, God doesn't force himself on anybody, he just knocks them off their horses and blinds them.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[jiggyfly]

let me ask you, if Christ sacrifice did indeed pay for the sins of every man that has ever lived, would that not make god unjust? if the debt for all has already been paid then for god to send any to hell would be terribly unjust. if Christ did indeed bore the wrath of ALL men, then what wrath does the father have left for anybody else. the answer to that question is NONE. If Christ Sacrifice was for ALL as you believe it is, and that god wills that all be saved, then Christ's sacrifice was insufficient, in that it has not appeased the wrath of the father, and that mans will is more powerful than gods will.

Soli Deo Gloria

Yes Cman it would seem so with a paradigm based on calvinism.

why is it that you refuse to believe a sovereign god would forcefully choose those he wants. i tell you that if it were not for the Holy Spirit "intruding" in my life, i would have never chose of my own accord. Paul wasn't on his way to Damascus to find God, in fact he was going there to persecute his people. and what did god do? hm? I do believe that God intruded into Paul's life. but then again i forgot, God doesn't force himself on anybody, he just knocks them off their horses and blinds them.

So I take it that you have not surrendered to God yet, He is still forcing His way and will on you.:wink:

Jesus did use force with Paul but Paul yielded.

 

[cman77]

Jesus did use force with Paul but Paul yielded.

this is exactly my point. God used force and Paul yielded. what i am saying is that god uses force on those he is going to save. you cant surrender to somebody who is not attacking. those who god forcefully compels to come, will come. now, what i think you are saying is that god compels all people equally. i do not believe that. as you said "Paul yielded." of course he yielded, no man can stand against god. if God says "I Want You" there is nothing left for you to do but surrender. If God does this for all as you believe then you are Saying that mans will is capable of competing with God's Will. this is not possible.

 

[rojoloco]

This is a poor effort even by your standards Red. You have tried to duck scriptural truth by quoting other verses completely out of context.
If God says Jesus died for the sins of the whole world He was not waiting for someone to come along centuries later redefining His Words for Him.
1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889

According to the Vines Expository Dictionary whole means (imagine that ) whole, that is God's Word not mine:
Whole, Wholly, Wholesome

A. Adjectives.
1. holos (G3650), for which see ALL, A, No. 3, and ALTOGETHER, signifies "whole," (a) with a noun, e.g., Mat_5:29, Mat_5:30; Mar_8:36; Mar_15:1, Mar_15:16, Mar_15:33; Luk_11:36 (1st part), though holon may here be used adverbially with photeinon, "wholly light" [as in the 2nd part, RV, "wholly (full of light)"]; Joh_11:50; 1Co_12:17 (1st part); 1Jo_2:2; 1Jo_5:19; (b) absolutely, as a noun, e.g., Mat_13:33; 1Co_12:17 (2nd part).

And again, you fail to even see where I am getting because you can't seem to wrap your mind around anything other than your preconceived ideas. Instead of seeing the point I was making about the term "whole world" all you saw was me trying to interpret one verse with the others. My point for quoting those other verses was to show the many uses of the term "whole world". It all relates because, in the end, it SHOULD have opened up your eyes to see how it makes even more sense and is in full accord with Scripture to see how "whole world" is not speaking of every person. You are correct that "whole" means Whole, Wholly, Wholesome but this says nothing of being all inclusive regarding individuals. Christ died for all of mankind, not for every man of his kind. Somehow, I have a strong feeling you will neglect what I have written here and go on to some other drivel about how it means the whole world and can't possibly mean anything else and then I'll just have to explain this all over again to be ignored once again.

 

[rojoloco]

The gift of salvation, the power to deliver, the grace to believe are all God's gift to any willing heart.

Yet Scripture says none are willing so how do you reconcile this belief of yours?

"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." -- John 3:20

"<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.
Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one." -- Psalm 53:2-3

Unlike you I simply do not see God forcing anyone to come to Him as an automaton but as He draws those who will hear respond out of love.

It is far from forcing someone unto Him. He never drags someone to Himself with them kicking and screaming and begging to be set free. A person is bound by their nature. Once God changes that person's nature, they cling to Him willingly. They are now bound by a nature of Christ. All who come to God come willingly but they are only willing because God made them to be such by changing their nature. They are indeed willing but they have no other option because their new nature compels them.

The power of salvation is still His and given to the "any" that He clearly declares over and over in His Word. Again, these are His Words and not mine.

There is a really great saying. It goes something to the effect of:

"The atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient for the Elect."

If it were meant for each and every person, each and every person would be saved. As it stands, it is sufficient for mankind as a whole (regardless of race, color, or creed) but it is only efficient (and 100% so) for the Elect whom God chose before the foundation of the world not based on anything within ourselves but of His grace alone.

 

[rojoloco]

Jesus did use force with Paul but Paul yielded.

And thank God for that. With your belief, one must give all glory to Paul for yielding or else we might not have a Bible today. Thank you Paul for giving us our Bible and obeying!

This is just nonsense. We have our Bible because God had a plan and it would be carried out to completion. Do you honestly believe Paul really had the option to refuse? Do you believe God would have just snagged up some other guy to write the majority of the New Testament if that had happened? It happened because God made it happen and there was no other way.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

"For many are called, but few are chosen." -- Matthew 22:14

Rojo, if you check the context of the parable in which that quote appears, you'll find that the story centers on a wedding banquet to which many guests are invited. The man who dressed inappropriately, chose his attire prior to coming to the banquet. So, Mt 22:14 actually supports Spirit1st's position, not yours.

SLE

 

[rojoloco]

Rojo, if you check the context of the parable in which that quote appears, you'll find that the story centers on a wedding banquet to which many guests are invited. The man who dressed inappropriately, chose his attire prior to coming to the banquet. So, Mt 22:14 actually supports Spirit1st's position, not yours.

SLE

Actually, the context (and everything you just wrote) supports what I have been saying all along. Many guests were invited but they were not invited by the king. The king merely commanded the servants to invite all people. Just as we have no idea who will be saved in the end, we are commanded to witness to all. The servants simply put the invite out to everyone. The man who dressed inappropriately did indeed choose how he would dress. However, notice that his choice did not align with the king's and as a result, he was cast out. This is because all of our choices align with our nature. The man did not see the king as being worthy so he made the choice to dress the way he did. In the same way, the unregenerate man does not see God as worthy and chooses to act in such a manner. However, his choice is out of compulsion to his nature. He made a choice but he had no other choice but to make the one he made. This does not support Spirit1st's position but rather the position of Scripture that speaks of:

1) no man seeking God
2) no man doing good
3) no man choosing the Light
4) the carnal man not understanding the things of the Spirit
5) a man not able to do any good until being born again in the new nature of Christ

 

[jiggyfly]

And thank God for that. With your belief, one must give all glory to Paul for yielding or else we might not have a Bible today. Thank you Paul for giving us our Bible and obeying!

This is just nonsense. We have our Bible because God had a plan and it would be carried out to completion. Do you honestly believe Paul really had the option to refuse? Do you believe God would have just snagged up some other guy to write the majority of the New Testament if that had happened? It happened because God made it happen and there was no other way.

While you assume to know what I believe, actually you know very little about what I believe. :wink:

 

[jiggyfly]

this is exactly my point. God used force and Paul yielded. what i am saying is that god uses force on those he is going to save. you cant surrender to somebody who is not attacking. those who god forcefully compels to come, will come. now, what i think you are saying is that god compels all people equally. i do not believe that. as you said "Paul yielded." of course he yielded, no man can stand against god. if God says "I Want You" there is nothing left for you to do but surrender. If God does this for all as you believe then you are Saying that mans will is capable of competing with God's Will. this is not possible.

So theres no such thing as resisting or wrestling with God?

Do you believe God operates outside of Love?

 

[Boanerges]

And again, you fail to even see where I am getting because you can't seem to wrap your mind around anything other than your preconceived ideas. Instead of seeing the point I was making about the term "whole world" all you saw was me trying to interpret one verse with the others. My point for quoting those other verses was to show the many uses of the term "whole world". It all relates because, in the end, it SHOULD have opened up your eyes to see how it makes even more sense and is in full accord with Scripture to see how "whole world" is not speaking of every person. You are correct that "whole" means Whole, Wholly, Wholesome but this says nothing of being all inclusive regarding individuals. Christ died for all of mankind, not for every man of his kind. Somehow, I have a strong feeling you will neglect what I have written here and go on to some other drivel about how it means the whole world and can't possibly mean anything else and then I'll just have to explain this all over again to be ignored once again.

You are using that word in different context and trying to give them the same meaning. That is the same as comparing the call of God on an individual's life to a bird call.

Hyper predestination was rejected by the early church and not even invented until Augustine came up with this delusion.

 

[Boanerges]

let me ask you, if Christ sacrifice did indeed pay for the sins of every man that has ever lived, would that not make god unjust?
No. He is God and anything He chooses is just.
if the debt for all has already been paid then for god to send any to hell would be terribly unjust.
That is only your opinion and that flies directly in the face of what is plainly written in the scriptures.
if Christ did indeed bore the wrath of ALL men,
He did, the Bible says so.
then what wrath does the father have left for anybody else.
The wrath of God is for those who will not believe.
the answer to that question is NONE.
Again, that is your opinion and completely un-scriptural.
If Christ Sacrifice was for ALL as you believe it is, and that god wills that all be saved,
Yes, that is what the Bible says
then Christ's sacrifice was insufficient, in that it has not appeased the wrath of the father, and that mans will is more powerful than gods will.
That error in your view comes from looking through the lens of bad doctrine.
why is it that you refuse to believe a sovereign god would forcefully choose those he wants.
I do not refuse, I simply agree with the Bible when it repeatedly declares that it is those He foreknows He predestines.
i tell you that if it were not for the Holy Spirit "intruding" in my life, i would have never chose of my own accord.
That is true for all, yet He plainly calls the many but few will come.
Paul wasn't on his way to Damascus to find God, in fact he was going there to persecute his people. and what did god do? hm? I do believe that God intruded into Paul's life. but then again i forgot, God doesn't force himself on anybody, he just knocks them off their horses and blinds them.
Trying to compare Paul's call to that of the average believer is a stretch. There is no other similar in the entire Bible.
Soli Deo Gloria

Let me repeat something I posted earlier- hyper predestination was rejected as heresy by the early church. The Word of God does not line up with that doctrine without significant "jumping through hoops" and redefining of the meaning of basic words. If you have top ignore what the early church believed and re-translate or radically re-interpret the meaning of simple words then you my friend are trying to rewrite the truth.

 

[RJ]

NO USE PREACHING the gospel if it were all said and done!

I do not like argue I understand if the HOLY GHOST does not open the persons EYES , then they never know or fully understand!

I know and am certain GOD is working to get as many as possible into the KINGDOM and HE wants to live though us!

You might as well forget preaching and find a place to sit waiting for your salvation!
then those who think preaching and doing miracles can do there work!

best you just stay out of the way as you see no use in preaching the GOSPEL!

As the Elect in your eyes are going to be Born -Again no matter what!
I Do Not see it that way!

as far as books go to explain GODS LIVING WORD! I never USE ANY! I count on the HOLY GHOST 100%

you will not NEED HIM.Because you can live by other men thinking by using there Books to guide and teach you!

LOTS of folks live by other men writings!

Not being smart about it! It just trusting More in the Holy Spirit than in my little mind or another mans little mind!

I have done all the things GOD said I would in the bible and fine the HOLY SPIRIT the BEST teacher and friend in life!
He is a GREAT HELPER !

I would hate to live on earth without Him!

LOTS on earth think like you do!

Your thinking says there is NO HOPE FOR MOST!No matter what they do they are ALL going to hell then the lake of fire! Only because they were NOT as good as you????

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Of course in your thinking only a few could believe no matter how hard they try they CANNOT BE SAVED ,they were BORN DAMMED and DOOMED!

My thinking tells me from scripture HE died for All mankind and any can repent and be added into HIs family!

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Think GODS playing a trick on those many who were CALLED ,when HE knew they were DAMMED anyway?

I think HE calls all and few Answer HIS LOVING CALL!

OR is GOD a dummy calling folks HE knows cannot enter in?

My LORD died for all willing to accept HIS Gospel and HIM as LORD!

He made it possible for All mankind to enter in!
You can think as You will!

But I know MY FATHER GOD as LOVE ,PURE PERFECT LOVE !
Why would it matter which sinner He accepts when All are sinners ad then He makes us All who are willing BRAND NEW HEAVENLY CREATURE!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Only took ONE sin to destroy an entire planet and everything on it! why would one mans sins be worse than another mans?

There is a problem to the "Election Only" stance that supporters overlook, and that is the potential negative outcome. And where there is a potential, there will be the outcome with somebody.

First, one has to agree that there is no possible negativity in our God who is absolute perfection in His will and nature. Anything negative is not from or of God!

With that point established, here is the problem with "Election Only":

Where ever that theology is preached and promoted, there has to be or will be a situation where a person can concieve negative thoughts or a bondage to that theology.

Take a person who is seeking God and you drive into that person's conscience that they will be save ONLY, if God elects them.

So that person starts their journey by doing every thing that they can do to be in the please God. That in itself is bondage to works.

So, you say: no, no , no it is not works it is by faith but you must be elected first then faith and works will come. O.K., so this person seeking God just waits and waits. They keep going to church, you keep telling them that God's chooses first by election, but nothing happens.

What is the eventual outcome? I tell you what it is, bondage!!!

That person, if they never feel or realized a state of "Election", they will become trapped in the bondage of no self worth. They will get to the point that since God hasn't elected them yet, then they must not be one of God's elects. God doesn't love them and they are doomed to go to hell.

That , my friend is the problem with "Election only". It could lead to bondage of no hope. And that is not from God. Election only is not from God.

Any theology that can lead to bondage, will lead some to bondage and that is not from God.

St. Paul said that Love is the replacement for all of the Ten Commandments.
Show us where there is God's (Agape) love in the theology of election only........don'y try because you can't!!!!

 

[Faith4Bride]

Election does not negate preaching. The elect hear and believe by the Faith that God gives them. Just because people are elect and the purpose and plan of God has been declared to happen does not mean that it therefore does not need to happen.

Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world! Did that mean He did not need to come and actually die? No. It means the word and plan and purposes declared by God to happen- must happen as He has declared them to.

Preaching and hearing the gospel is the purpose and plan of God that God ordained to be the way that His people would confess Him to the world and out of which those called and chosen would hear and bring forth the fruit that He ordained them to. The works that believers walk in, which includes preaching the gospel to the world- were ordained of God before the foundation of the world for us to walk in them.

The Lord has purposed that His overcommers, His elect will not only be saved, but they will be glorified with Christ- they will inherit with Christ - and they will judge the world and the angels. Because God is conforming His people into the image of Christ and preparing them to be in all obedience that we may avenge all disobedience and judge and rule with Christ, God is using us for the good of each other and to declare the truth and be the testimony of His purposes for the church to the enemy and the world so that they will be righteously judged and so we can grow up into mature sons of God ready and able to rule and judge righteously.

Gods plan is not simply to get as many toes in the door of heaven as possible so we can sit around and eat grapes forever. His plan is to have holy sons of God, conformed to the image of Christ who are able to rule and reign and judge and avenge with Him.

Now election is not a feeling that you sit around and try to aprehend or hope you can work your way too. The Lord already has made the elect before the foundation of the world and it was not by any work we would ever or will ever do. There is no trying to work enough to make God elect you. There is no sitting around trying to " feel" like you are elect.

Election is a biblical fact that we are to walk in faith of. Just as we walk in faith that we are saved, yet not having seen the adoption of our bodies yet. Just as we walk by faith in everything God says- we walk by faith that we are elect.

Now if someone says "well i am elect i can sit around and sin all i want because nothing can change it" True enough if you are elect nothing can change it. What this person fails to understand is that not only are the elect elect, but they WILL bare fruit- they WILL be conformed into the image of Jesus- they WILL walk in the good works ordained for them. So if a person sits around and sins all they want, what they are doing is PROVING that they are not elect.

However as we love the Lord more and more and obey Him, as our walk is in faith and holiness towards God, as we bare fruit and abide faithful unto the end, we show forth the proof of our election.

This does not mean we are earning our election- it means we are fulfilling exactly what God ordained for us to become in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.


Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,


Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;


Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,


Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],


Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:


Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,


Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[Boanerges]

That Christ died for all there can be no denying without using a large pair of scissors on the Bible.
That some are predestined to be with Him there is also no doubt but one must remember that the Bible declares predestination to be by foreknowledge. That foreknowledge is of our choices. Those who will love Him and come to Him will be saved. Those who will not shall get what they want, to be seperated eternally from His love.

Rom 8:29 ForG3754 whomG3739 he did foreknow,G4267 he alsoG2532 did predestinateG4309 to be conformed toG4832 theG3588 imageG1504 of hisG848 Son,G5207 that heG846 might beG1511 the firstbornG4416 amongG1722 manyG4183 brethren.G80

1Pe 1:2 ElectG1588 accordingG2596 to the foreknowledgeG4268 of GodG2316 the Father,G3962 throughG1722 sanctificationG38 of the Spirit,G4151 untoG1519 obedienceG5218 andG2532 sprinklingG4473 of the bloodG129 of JesusG2424 Christ:G5547 GraceG5485 unto you,G5213 andG2532 peace,G1515 be multiplied.G4129

Those He knew He predestined, those who were elect were by His foreknowledge of them and their choices.

From the Strongs's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Exclusion of these verses results in confusion on the subject.

 

[RJ]

Election does not negate preaching. The elect hear and believe by the Faith that God gives them. Just because people are elect and the purpose and plan of God has been declared to happen does not mean that it therefore does not need to happen.

Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world! Did that mean He did not need to come and actually die? No. It means the word and plan and purposes declared by God to happen- must happen as He has declared them to.

Preaching and hearing the gospel is the purpose and plan of God that God ordained to be the way that His people would confess Him to the world and out of which those called and chosen would hear and bring forth the fruit that He ordained them to. The works that believers walk in, which includes preaching the gospel to the world- were ordained of God before the foundation of the world for us to walk in them.

The Lord has purposed that His overcommers, His elect will not only be saved, but they will be glorified with Christ- they will inherit with Christ - and they will judge the world and the angels. Because God is conforming His people into the image of Christ and preparing them to be in all obedience that we may avenge all disobedience and judge and rule with Christ, God is using us for the good of each other and to declare the truth and be the testimony of His purposes for the church to the enemy and the world so that they will be righteously judged and so we can grow up into mature sons of God ready and able to rule and judge righteously.

Gods plan is not simply to get as many toes in the door of heaven as possible so we can sit around and eat grapes forever. His plan is to have holy sons of God, conformed to the image of Christ who are able to rule and reign and judge and avenge with Him.

Now election is not a feeling that you sit around and try to aprehend or hope you can work your way too. The Lord already has made the elect before the foundation of the world and it was not by any work we would ever or will ever do. There is no trying to work enough to make God elect you. There is no sitting around trying to " feel" like you are elect.

Election is a biblical fact that we are to walk in faith of. Just as we walk in faith that we are saved, yet not having seen the adoption of our bodies yet. Just as we walk by faith in everything God says- we walk by faith that we are elect.

Now if someone says "well i am elect i can sit around and sin all i want because nothing can change it" True enough if you are elect nothing can change it. What this person fails to understand is that not only are the elect elect, but they WILL bare fruit- they WILL be conformed into the image of Jesus- they WILL walk in the good works ordained for them. So if a person sits around and sins all they want, what they are doing is PROVING that they are not elect.

However as we love the Lord more and more and obey Him, as our walk is in faith and holiness towards God, as we bare fruit and abide faithful unto the end, we show forth the proof of our election.

This does not mean we are earning our election- it means we are fulfilling exactly what God ordained for us to become in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.


Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,


Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;


Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,


Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],


Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:


Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,


Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I certainly respect your belief.

But I stand by my previous thread. Somehow those who accept his gift become His elect because,
saved by "Election Only" can and will lead to a negative bondage for some, and that result is not the election that God talks about!

It is impossible for Jesus to die for the sin debt of ALL for God to just turn around and only elect a few.

IF Jesus would have died for only the elect, then what you believe could make since but, since he didn't , you don't!

There is no scriptual proof that Jesus died for the "Elect Only" but there is scriptual proof that He died for ALL!

 

[cman77]

are we certain that the word ALL does not refer to ALL those who are part of the church? after all the large majority of the new testament is letters to the church

 

[RJ]

are we certain that the word ALL does not refer to ALL those who are part of the church? after all the large majority of the new testament is letters to the church

St. Paul taught mostly to the Gentile but He was always after the non-believing Jew.

God's unconditional love is the same for the believer as well as the non-believer.

Christ died on the cross to forgive all, he died then ,for the believers and especially for all the non-beleivers.