Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[spirit1st]

The old was in Part the NEW is the finish of the old!
The old dealt mainly with the flesh!
The New deals mainly with the Spirit!
The new is God dealing with us in the eternal!

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
These Now are eternal laws and an eternal Priesthood!

LOVE and FAITH

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

love covers most of the ten!
But now we give everything we have to Him and every day!
He guides us and leads us!

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Faith4Bride]

it makes a differnce not because it is not all the word of God but because what God says to unbelievers, is differnt then what He says to believers. You are taking scripture given to Gods bride at the time, who was already in covenant with Him, who had already been given and recieved the word, the promises, covenants and you are trying to take them out of context and apply them to unbelievers who do not yet have the word the promises the covenants.

You have to apply scripture to who it is too, now you can take joshua and apply is to people already saved- not to those who do not know him

 

[Hekuran]

My reading of the scriptures is that in the old and the new Testaments people are given choices.

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus (Matthew 7)makes clear the choice that everybody has to make, and its consequences.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

The doctrine of election is a biblical one. I believe, in line with Paul's praise in Ephesians 1, that I was chosen by God before the beginning of time.

Most of us, I guess also have the experience of making a decision to follow Jesus. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Following Christ is a choice we must make one and for all, and every day. It is an exercise of our will.

I have never been able to squeeze these two truths into a satisfactory watertight doctrine, and I have spent a fair bit of time trying to puzzle it out.

Better to hold onto both truths even if you cannot reconcile them fully, than to reject one element of truth.

 

[RJ]

My reading of the scriptures is that in the old and the new Testaments people are given choices.

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus (Matthew 7)makes clear the choice that everybody has to make, and its consequences.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

The doctrine of election is a biblical one. I believe, in line with Paul's praise in Ephesians 1, that I was chosen by God before the beginning of time.

Most of us, I guess also have the experience of making a decision to follow Jesus. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Following Christ is a choice we must make one and for all, and every day. It is an exercise of our will.

I have never been able to squeeze these two truths into a satisfactory watertight doctrine, and I have spent a fair bit of time trying to puzzle it out.

Better to hold onto both truths even if you cannot reconcile them fully, than to reject one element of truth.

I could'nt agree more!

For instances to say"by election only" is wrong because it can lead to misunderstanding and eventual bondage of no being worthy, and that's not from God.

But, as you say, there has to be a way to old to both truths.


I am coming to the conclusion that it is hard to bring these two truths together, and, I sometimes think God allows that to make us dig harder and contemplate more on the ramifications of both.

Look at this if you will:

<SUP id=en-KJV-30553 class=versenum>2</SUP>And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 KJV

I believe the use of porpitiation here is more accurate than atonement, where propitiation is the "taking away" of sins and atonement is the "covering" of sins. Sins, the atonement of, could not be taken away by the blood of bulls and goats but only by the blood of Jesus.

If you believe 1 John 2:2, you believe , Jesus died for all and the sins have been forgiven for all!

Coupled with the fact that God's love is unconditional, it is impossible for God to provide this gift of forgiveness for all, but only elect a few!!

I contend that we choose and therefor are his elect. And He knew this before the foundation of the universe because He is the "Alpha and the Omega".

 

[cman77]

I contend that we choose and therefor are his elect. And He knew this before the foundation of the universe because He is the "Alpha and the Omega".

it would make more sense the other way around. I contend that we are his elect and therefor we choose.

 

[RJ]

it would make more sense the other way around. I contend that we are his elect and therefor we choose.

That's good.
Hey as long as we have Christ in us, that's what is important, right?!!!

 

[Johan]

Genesis 2:16-17

God gave Adam a choice. God didn't elect Adam to eat the forbidden
fruit just because He knew that he would do it.

God would NEVER save us by interfering with our free will. He has
elected everyone, because he loves everyone. Everyone has the
choice, even though He knows that not all of us will get saved.

If it's not a choice ... then please explain the point of Jesus' sacrifice ...

 

[spirit1st]

I really think Both are true!
I think He saw who wanted truth and would be saved and He saw that He could help others to enter in!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This scripture to me, is saying HE wants all to be saved! Its His Will they be saved!

But at the same time, I do not believe HE forces us to be saved!


This is argued a lot on sites!

 

[rojoloco]

He paid the price for ALL mankind , Making it possible for all to be BORN -AGAIN! it is up to us to reject or accept!

All mankind without distinction, not without exception.

FEW are willing to accept HIM as LORD!

There is a very strong reason for this. You actually stated it yourself. Your passage strongly supports my position.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The unregenerate man will never choose God. Scripture plainly states that he will not come to the Light. It is only AFTER regeneration that a man loves the Light however, it is upon regeneration that he is saved. Hence, a man must be saved and changed by God before he can love God yet at the very moment of regeneration and the receipt of the Holy Spirit, that man clings to God with all of his new nature in Christ. Christ came to make a way for all of the Elect which were no longer limited to just Jews but now consisted of all races without distinction; the whole world. It was for these people that is came to save. Everyone he came to save, he will save.

MANY are CALLED to be SAVED , few are willing to be saved!
Salvation is simple and its free to all willing!

If you are going to paraphrase Scripture, it is necessary to at least stay within the boundaries of Scripture. It does not say what you said at all. It actually says:

"For many are called, but few are chosen." -- Matthew 22:14

Take notice in that entire passage that it is not the king making the general public invite to the masses. He commanded his servants to do it. However, in the end, it was the king who made the choice. In the same way, we are called by God to be fishers of men. We are called to make disciples of all nations. We are called to be unbiased in where we share the gospel. We are to cast a public invite to all without judgment. However, it is up to God whom He calls to share eternity with Himself. Many receive the external call of God's servants but few are given the Spirit in regeneration by the choosing of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

HE gave us all enough faith to be saved if we want too! I wanted too.

Again, we must remain confined to the boundaries of Scripture. This verse says nothing of us making choices in our own will. Scripture clearly states (by your own admission above) that men hate the Light and do not come to it. Obviously, nobody wants to choose God. They hate Him. The verse you quoted in 1 Corinthians is simply speaking of God taking pleasure in hearing His Word preached. To the world, it is foolishness (v. 18). Despite this, God loves seeing us preach Christ crucified (v. 23). We preach it unashamedly. Let us be seen as fools for God in the eyes of man.

Again, nothing you quoted says anything remotely related to choice but actually supports the opposite; the sovereignty of God.

 

[Boanerges]

The Jewish people were called to repentance and no one could be born again (regenerated) until Christ rose from the dead. Instead Selah.

Joh 12:32 And I,G2504 ifG1437 I be lifted upG5312 fromG1537 theG3588 earth,G1093 will drawG1670 allG3956 men untoG4314 me.G1683

 

[spirit1st]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


It VERY clear to me! His will is for all too be saved! Yet I know He does not force us to be Born -Again !

 

[rojoloco]

You seem really confused since I have never said either of those things.
I am not the one who is trying to make the whole world into just a few. I simply am not good at rewriting scripture to suit my interpretations but you seem very skilled at it.
Perhaps you should write your own translation and call it the "Gospel Lite"- LOL.

You obviously are stuck on the idea that since it says "whole world" it just be referring to EVERY individual without exception. Your seem to have a refusal to accept that "whole world" carries about it an all encompassing generalization. I'll go ahead and toss out a few other areas. Let's see if you still refuse to see "whole world" as anything other than every single individual person.

Who gave Him authority over the earth?And who has laid on Him the whole world?

Perhaps you think every man without exception is laid on God and that this cannot possibly refer to a generalized statement.

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Perhaps you think a man can possibly gain every other man and woman on Earth instead of taking "whole world" in the proper context of material possessions.

This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This is a perfect example as it is actually speaking of mankind. Perhaps you believe Christ won't return until every man and woman without exception have heard the Gospel. It is extensively obvious that this particular passage is referring to preaching the Gospel to the world in general, preaching to every man and woman without distinction. It is referring to mankind without distinction, not without exception. This should be clear to even the dullest of observers. If this is the case, why is it so difficult to accept in the other cases?

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Christ is the propitiation for not just that local church that John was writing to but for every other person whom Christ set out to save, the Elect. The Elect no longer comprised of Jews only but rather, every race on Earth without distinction. The propitiation is synonymous with redemption; an act that has already occurred in finality and is not universal.

 

[rojoloco]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


It VERY clear to me! His will is for all too be saved! Yet I know He does not force us to be Born -Again !

I guess when Scripture proves otherwise, most people just cut out the parts that disagree. You posted the remainder of the verses in your last post. I showed how when used in the full and proper context, it is saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Now I see you are basing your doctrine off of only 2 verses and are discarding the others because they don't jive. Verses 16-17 simply speak of "the world" without giving any specific meaning (as there are many uses of the term "the world"). Verses 18-20 give the specifics saying that no man comes to the Light on their own because they hate it. Only now do we have the specifics of who "the world" really is and it doesn't fit the eisegesis that leads to a universal atonement and free will. One must always take Scripture as a whole. You can't just dislike verses 18-20, discard them, and then close your eyes and "believe really hard" that the world refers to every individual without exception when the passage as a whole clearly says otherwise. Nobody seeks God. Nobody chooses God. Everybody hates the Light. Nobody turns to the Light.

 

[rojoloco]

I know it is most folks a tendency to exaggerate in order to prove a point (as you did above) but only God makes it possible for man to come. He has however made it possible for the "all" to come but many are simply not willing.

I want to address this very line right here. I believe this is one of the most important things to have come out of this entire discussion and the future of it hinges on settling this matter.

With this statement, you are compelled to admit you do not believe God saves but only makes a way for man to save himself. You may say that without God, man would have been incapable of saving himself and that it still makes it salvation by God alone but in the end, the destination and decision lies within man himself. Man makes the ultimate decision of whether or not he will be saved. This means God does not save anyone at all. It means He does not redeem anyone at all. It means God just made a way, sits on the sidelines, and hopes people will redeem themselves through a good choice.

Let's see what Scripture says about redemption shall we?

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

It is in Christ that we have redemption. It is not in Christ that we have a way to redeem ourselves. It is not in Christ that there is a way to redeem down the road when people choose. All the Elect have already been redeemed. It was not us redeeming ourselves but Christ redeeming us. He ALREADY redeemed us. It is in the past tense.

If the atonement made it possible for all men to come, by necessity, the atonement also must redeem the same men. One cannot say "the world" means every man and woman without exception concerning the atonement but only without distinction concerning redemption as atonement and redemption are one through Christ.

 

[spirit1st]

WE NEED to be TAUGHT by the SPIRIT OF GOD or we lean to our own understanding and never know much truth or have the correct understanding!

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.


1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[spirit1st]

Listen to me ! WE take all SCRIPTURES that are about the same Subject, then we look at them and see How All are Correct and How they fit together perfectly ! Because they Always 100% of the time are perfectly fitted together.
The scriptures are never wrong , its the understanding we get that is flawed ! Because we use certain scriptures and leave out the others that appear not to fit! They Are fit perfectly always with the correct understanding
But if we are Not spiritually minded WE will never have the correct understanding.

 

[Boanerges]

You obviously are stuck on the idea that since it says "whole world" it just be referring to EVERY individual without exception. Your seem to have a refusal to accept that "whole world" carries about it an all encompassing generalization. I'll go ahead and toss out a few other areas. Let's see if you still refuse to see "whole world" as anything other than every single individual person.



Perhaps you think every man without exception is laid on God and that this cannot possibly refer to a generalized statement.



Perhaps you think a man can possibly gain every other man and woman on Earth instead of taking "whole world" in the proper context of material possessions.



This is a perfect example as it is actually speaking of mankind. Perhaps you believe Christ won't return until every man and woman without exception have heard the Gospel. It is extensively obvious that this particular passage is referring to preaching the Gospel to the world in general, preaching to every man and woman without distinction. It is referring to mankind without distinction, not without exception. This should be clear to even the dullest of observers. If this is the case, why is it so difficult to accept in the other cases?



.

This is a poor effort even by your standards Red. You have tried to duck scriptural truth by quoting other verses completely out of context.
If God says Jesus died for the sins of the whole world He was not waiting for someone to come along centuries later redefining His Words for Him.
1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889

According to the Vines Expository Dictionary whole means (imagine that ) whole, that is God's Word not mine:
Whole, Wholly, Wholesome

A. Adjectives.
1. holos (G3650), for which see ALL, A, No. 3, and ALTOGETHER, signifies "whole," (a) with a noun, e.g., Mat_5:29, Mat_5:30; Mar_8:36; Mar_15:1, Mar_15:16, Mar_15:33; Luk_11:36 (1st part), though holon may here be used adverbially with photeinon, "wholly light" [as in the 2nd part, RV, "wholly (full of light)"]; Joh_11:50; 1Co_12:17 (1st part); 1Jo_2:2; 1Jo_5:19; (b) absolutely, as a noun, e.g., Mat_13:33; 1Co_12:17 (2nd part).

 

[Boanerges]

With this statement, you are compelled to admit you do not believe God saves but only makes a way for man to save himself. You may say that without God, man would have been incapable of saving himself and that it still makes it salvation by God alone but in the end, the destination and decision lies within man himself. Man makes the ultimate decision of whether or not he will be saved.

Jehovah's -witnesses do not do a better job of confusing words- you should be proud- LOL.

The gift of salvation, the power to deliver, the grace to believe are all God's gift to any willing heart. Unlike you I simply do not see God forcing anyone to come to Him as an automaton but as He draws those who will hear respond out of love.
The power of salvation is still His and given to the "any" that He clearly declares over and over in His Word. Again, these are His Words and not mine.

 

[cman77]

The power of salvation is still His and given to the "any" that He clearly declares over and over in His Word. Again, these are His Words and not mine.

with the idea that you have in your head, the power of salvation is really in your hands. if it is up to the unregenerate man to make the choice to follow Christ, then none would saved. or do you think that a sinful man without the aid of god's grace can indeed make that decision. if you do believe this then you are saying that it was you who chose and therefor you would have something to boast in. and i know that you are going to deny that fact and say that all the credit goes to god. but the fact is that if when you look back on your conversion and say yes it was me that first chose god, you yourself are taking credit for it. i have said it before and i will say it again. which doctrine gives god more glory? a doctrine in which we must first choose him or a doctrine in which he reaches down his holy hand and pulls us out of our sin. the latter is the one that gives him the most glory. we are told to lean not on ourselves. what you are saying is that it is up to us to make that choice and i tell you we cant, and that is why i am so grateful to my heavenly father that he chose me. by using the doctrine of free will we rob god of his sovereignty and his glory. robbing god of his glory is a very grievous sin of which we should all beware of.

and as for the word "any", that refers to a group not a choice

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[ImmanuelWithUs]

I chose election.

We do have a choice - and we've all chosen death, hell, and to follow Satan. The only one with TRUE choice is God Himself. And I praise God everyday that He refused to let me go to hell where I chose to go because my wicked, totally depraved heart.

One of my favorite quotes from Spurgeon:
"I believe in the doctrine of election, because I am quite sure that if God had not chosen me, I would never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me after."