Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[Faith4Bride]

He paid the price for ALL mankind , Making it possible for all to be BORN -AGAIN! it is up to us to reject or accept!

FEW are willing to accept HIM as LORD!





MANY are CALLED to be SAVED , few are willing to be saved!
Salvation is simple and its free to all willing!




HE gave us all enough faith to be saved if we want too! I wanted too.

Where does the scripture say this? Never does the gospel say to " accept" anything. This " accept" bit is totally unscriptural. The gospel command " Believe"- and then we are told faith is a gift of God given to us and it is -not of ourselves-!

And to take a scripture and change it into exactly what it does not say is :shock: . The bible does not say many are called " to be saved" and " few are willing to be saved" It says Many are called and FEW are CHOSEN.- That word chosen means elect!

There is a differnce between those just called and those who are Chosen.- Those who are elect cannot be decieved.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What people seem not to not realise is that when they take credit for " choosing" or being willing to themselves, or " accepting"(all which are not scriptural) they take credit for their own salvation instead of giving God the credit for saving them. Who has saved us? Has God saved us by grace through faith which is not of ourselves it is a gift of God! Or have we " accepted" and " chosen" and saved ourselves?- If we beleive that anything in our carnal nature was willing or desiring to be saved apart from the inner work God did in us first then we are believing works saved us and we are totally not understanding the carnal nature.

The word says No man seeks after God. and that the carnal nature cannot be held to the law of God- So how did your carnal nature on its own " choose" to " accept" something that is 100% against itself and that requires the death of yourself.

Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.


Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,


Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


If you " chose" him and you " accepted" him- then you are claiming your own righteousness to get yourself saved rather than claiming it was His mercy that He saved us with.- With this doctrine you can stand before God and say "I CHOSE. I WAS WILLING" and you can point to others and say " THEY ARE NOT LIKE ME< THEY ARE MORE SINNERS< THEY WOULD NOT CHOOSE YOU< THEY ARENT WILLING" and then you can just justify yourself to God and how wonderful your carnal nature was too desire and want what all other flesh could not.

 

[Boanerges]

If you " chose" him and you " accepted" him- then you are claiming your own righteousness to get yourself saved rather than claiming it was His mercy that He saved us with.- With this doctrine you can stand before God and say "I CHOSE. I WAS WILLING" and you can point to others and say " THEY ARE NOT LIKE ME< THEY ARE MORE SINNERS< THEY WOULD NOT CHOOSE YOU< THEY ARENT WILLING" and then you can just justify yourself to God and how wonderful your carnal nature was too desire and want what all other flesh could not.

Again you seemed confused about grace and there is not one person here who claims that it is their own righteousness that saves them.

 

[Boanerges]

I have already stated countless times the proper context of "whole world" in my previous posts. Under your interpretation you are compelled to admit: a) The whole world will be saved b) The atonement doesn't save anybody but only allows us to save ourselves.

You seem really confused since I have never said either of those things.
I am not the one who is trying to make the whole world into just a few. I simply am not good at rewriting scripture to suit my interpretations but you seem very skilled at it.
Perhaps you should write your own translation and call it the "Gospel Lite"- LOL.

 

[Faith4Bride]

Again you seemed confused about grace and there is not one person here who claims that it is their own righteousness that saves them.

When people claim that they are saved- because- they chose- they " accepted"- becuase they were willing- they are taking credit for their own salvation by saying they were righteous enough in their flesh when they heard the gospel to get it for themselves.

Since the bible does not say to us, and we do not see the gospel being preached with things like " accept" " chose" " decide" and since this doctrine is based on people believing they- of themselves- " accepted" Him, instead of that He accepted them and chose them we can see it is false. It is not what is even preached anywhere in the gospel.

We are told as the gospel of salvation to BELIEVE and we are told that faith is a gift.

We are also told that it is God who calls, God who chooses, God who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

Either God gets the credit for our regeneration or we do.

 

[spirit1st]

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 

[Boanerges]

When people claim that they are saved- because- they chose- they " accepted"- becuase they were willing- they are taking credit for their own salvation by saying they were righteous enough in their flesh when they heard the gospel to get it for themselves.

Either God gets the credit for our regeneration or we do.

I know it is most folks a tendency to exaggerate in order to prove a point (as you did above) but only God makes it possible for man to come. He has however made it possible for the "all" to come but many are simply not willing. Either way to Him be the glory.
Heaven will not be a place populated by automatons but by those who willingly love God.
While it is only by God given faith that we can enter His rest He gives all a measure of faith (Rom 12:3) only some will choose to believe.
Act 2:41 ThenG3767 they that gladly receivedG588 G780(G3303) hisG846 wordG3056 were baptized:G907 andG2532 theG3588 sameG1565 dayG2250 there were addedG4369 unto them aboutG5616 three thousandG5153 souls.G5590


( Bold Empahsis Mine)
God's will plainly stated:
2Pe 3:9 TheG3588 LordG2962 is not slackG1019 G3756 concerning his promise,G1860 asG5613 some menG5100 countG2233 slackness;G1022 butG235 is longsufferingG3114 toG1519 us-ward,G2248 notG3361 willingG1014 that anyG5100 should perish,G622 butG235 that allG3956 should comeG5562 toG1519 repentance.G3341

1Ti 2:3 ForG1063 thisG5124 is goodG2570 andG2532 acceptableG587 in the sightG1799 of GodG2316 ourG2257 Saviour;G4990
1Ti 2:4 WhoG3739 willG2309 have allG3956 menG444 to be saved,G4982 andG2532 to comeG2064 untoG1519 the knowledgeG1922 of the truth.G225

So if God wills that all come to Him for salvation there must be another factor:
Resisting the Holy Spirit, refusal to come -
Act 7:51 Ye stiffneckedG4644 andG2532 uncircumcisedG564 in heartG2588 andG2532 ears,G3775 yeG5210 do alwaysG104 resistG496 theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost:G4151 asG5613 yourG5216 fathersG3962 did, soG2532 do ye.G5210

Mat 22:2 TheG3588 kingdomG932 of heavenG3772 is like untoG3666 a certain king,G444 G935 whichG3748 madeG4160 a marriageG1062 for hisG848 son,G5207
Mat 22:3 AndG2532 sent forthG649 hisG848 servantsG1401 to callG2564 them that were biddenG2564 toG1519 theG3588 wedding:G1062 andG2532 they wouldG2309 notG3756 come.G2064

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem,G2419 Jerusalem,G2419 which killestG615 theG3588 prophets,G4396 andG2532 stonestG3036 them that are sentG649 untoG4314 thee;G846 how oftenG4212 wouldG2309 I have gathered thy children together,G1996 G4675 G5043 asG3739 G5158 a henG3733 doth gather herG1438 broodG3555 underG5259 her wings,G4420 andG2532 ye wouldG2309 not!G3756



Since the beginning Adam chose to disobey God and even God chosen (elect people) have been doing the same:

Deu 30:15 See,H7200 I have setH5414 beforeH6440 thee this dayH3117 (H853) lifeH2416 and good,H2896 and deathH4194 and evil;H7451
Deu 30:16 In thatH834 IH595 commandH6680 thee this dayH3117 to loveH157 (H853) the LORDH3068 thy God,H430 to walkH1980 in his ways,H1870 and to keepH8104 his commandmentsH4687 and his statutesH2708 and his judgments,H4941 that thou mayest liveH2421 and multiply:H7235 and the LORDH3068 thy GodH430 shall blessH1288 thee in the landH776 whitherH834 H8033 thouH859 goestH935 to possessH3423 it.
Deu 30:17 But ifH518 thine heartH3824 turn away,H6437 so that thou wilt notH3808 hear,H8085 but shalt be drawn away,H5080 and worshipH7812 otherH312 gods,H430 and serveH5647 them;
Deu 30:18 I denounceH5046 unto you this day,H3117 thatH3588 ye shall surely perish,H6 H6 and that ye shall notH3808 prolongH748 your daysH3117 uponH5921 the land,H127 whitherH834 H8033 thouH859 passest overH5674 (H853) JordanH3383 to goH935 to possessH3423 it.
Deu 30:19 I callH5749 (H853) heavenH8064 and earthH776 to record this dayH3117 against you, that I have setH5414 beforeH6440 you lifeH2416 and death,H4194 blessingH1293 and cursing:H7045 therefore chooseH977 life,H2416 thatH4616 both thouH859 and thy seedH2233 may live:H2421

Eze 33:11 SayH559 untoH413 them, As IH589 live,H2416 saithH5002 the LordH136 GOD,H3069 I have no pleasureH518 H2654 in the deathH4194 of the wicked;H7563 butH3588 H518 that the wickedH7563 turnH7725 from his wayH4480 H1870 and live:H2421 turnH7725 ye, turnH7725 ye from your evilH7451 ways;H4480 H1870 for whyH4100 will ye die,H4191 O houseH1004 of Israel?H3478

Other heard the Word and choose to believe:
Joh 4:41 AndG2532 manyG4183 moreG4119 believedG4100 becauseG1223 of his ownG846 word;G3056
Joh 4:42 AndG5037 saidG3004 unto theG3588 woman,G1135 NowG3765 we believe,G4100 not becauseG1223 of thyG4674 saying:G2981 forG1063 we have heardG191 him ourselves,G846 andG2532 knowG1492 thatG3754 thisG3778 isG2076 indeedG230 theG3588 Christ,G5547 theG3588 SaviourG4990 of theG3588 world.G2889
The call is to the all, the whoever, the if any:
Rev 3:20 Behold,G2400 I standG2476 atG1909 theG3588 door,G2374 andG2532 knock:G2925 ifG1437 any manG5100 hearG191 myG3450 voice,G5456 andG2532 openG455 theG3588 door,G2374 I will come inG1525 toG4314 him,G846 andG2532 will supG1172 withG3326 him,G846 andG2532 heG846 withG3326 me.G1700

Joh 6:51 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 livingG2198 breadG740 which came downG2597 fromG1537 heaven:G3772 ifG1437 any manG5100 eatG5315 ofG1537 thisG5127 bread,G740 he shall liveG2198 for ever:G1519 G165 andG1161 theG3588 breadG740 thatG3739 IG1473 will giveG1325 isG2076 myG3450 flesh,G4561 whichG3739 IG1473 will giveG1325 forG5228 theG3588 lifeG2222 of theG3588 world.G2889
Joh 6:52 TheG3588 JewsG2453 thereforeG3767 stroveG3164 amongG4314 themselves,G240 saying,G3004 HowG4459 canG1410 this manG3778 giveG1325 usG2254 his fleshG4561 to eat?G5315
Joh 6:53 ThenG3767 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ExceptG3362 ye eatG5315 theG3588 fleshG4561 of theG3588 SonG5207 of man,G444 andG2532 drinkG4095 hisG846 blood,G129 ye haveG2192 noG3756 lifeG2222 inG1722 you.G1438
Joh 6:54 Whoso eatethG5176 myG3450 flesh,G4561 andG2532 drinkethG4095 myG3450 blood,G129 hathG2192 eternalG166 life;G2222 andG2532 IG1473 will raise him upG450 G846 at theG3588 lastG2078 day.G2250


Mat 11:28 ComeG1205 untoG4314 me,G3165 allG3956 ye that labourG2872 andG2532 are heavy laden,G5412 and IG2504 will give you rest.G373 G5209

Joh 7:37 InG1722 theG3588 lastG2078 day,G2250 that greatG3173 day of theG3588 feast,G1859 JesusG2424 stoodG2476 andG2532 cried,G2896 saying,G3004 IfG1437 any manG5100 thirst,G1372 let him comeG2064 untoG4314 me,G3165 andG2532 drink.G4095

Heb 2:9 ButG1161 we seeG991 Jesus,G2424 who was made a little lowerG1642 G1024 G5100 thanG3844 the angelsG32 forG1223 theG3588 sufferingG3804 of death,G2288 crownedG4737 with gloryG1391 andG2532 honour;G5092 thatG3704 he by the graceG5485 of GodG2316 should tasteG1089 deathG2288 forG5228 every man.G3956

Heb 10:10 ByG1722 the whichG3739 willG2307 we areG2070 sanctifiedG37 throughG1223 theG3588 offeringG4376 of theG3588 bodyG4983 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 onceG2178 for all.


1Ti 4:10 ForG1063 thereforeG1519 G5124 we bothG2532 labourG2872 andG2532 suffer reproach,G3679 becauseG3754 we trustG1679 inG1909 the livingG2198 God,G2316 whoG3739 isG2076 the SaviourG4990 of allG3956 men,G444 speciallyG3122 of those that believe.G4103

1Jn 4:14 AndG2532 weG2249 have seenG2300 andG2532 do testifyG3140 thatG3754 theG3588 FatherG3962 sentG649 theG3588 SonG5207 to be the SaviourG4990 of theG3588 world.G2889

Isa 53:6 AllH3605 we like sheepH6629 have gone astray;H8582 we have turnedH6437 every oneH376 to his own way;H1870 and the LORDH3068 hath laidH6293 on him(H853) the iniquityH5771 of us all.H3605


Joh 3:16 ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222

Joh 11:25 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto her,G846 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 resurrection,G386 andG2532 theG3588 life:G2222 he that believethG4100 inG1519 me,G1691 thoughG2579 he were dead,G599 yet shall he live:G2198
Joh 11:26 AndG2532 whosoeverG3956 livethG2198 andG2532 believethG4100 inG1519 meG1691 shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 die.G599 BelievestG4100 thou this?G5124

Act 2:21 AndG2532 it shall come to pass,G2071 that whosoeverG3956 G3739 G302 shall call onG1941 theG3588 nameG3686 of the LordG2962 shall be saved.G4982

The choice to believe or reject:

Joh 12:46 IG1473 am comeG2064 a lightG5457 intoG1519 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 onG1519 meG1691 should notG3361 abideG3306 inG1722 darkness.G4653
Joh 12:47 AndG2532 ifG1437 any manG5100 hearG191 myG3450 words,G4487 andG2532 believeG4100 not,G3361 IG1473 judgeG2919 himG846 not:G3756 forG1063 I cameG2064 notG3756 toG2443 judgeG2919 theG3588 world,G2889 butG235 toG2443 saveG4982 theG3588 world.G2889
Joh 12:48 He that rejectethG114 me,G1691 andG2532 receivethG2983 notG3361 myG3450 words,G4487 hathG2192 one that judgethG2919 him:G846 theG3588 wordG3056 thatG3739 I have spoken,G2980 the sameG1565 shall judgeG2919 himG846 inG1722 theG3588 lastG2078 day.G2250



God predestination those He foreknows ( Rom 8:29,1Pe 1:2)and that foreknowledge is of their actions and choices.




1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889

 

[Boanerges]

from Bible Life Ministries

]Election Does Not Determine Individual Salvation
Although Israel was the elect of God as shown above, individuals within Israel rejected God; therefore, God considered the entire nation to have rejected Him because of the rejection by the majority. Election, as shown in these verses, is not a guarantee of salvation, and that election can be resisted. These verses are contradictory to the erroneous theology of Irresistible Grace

Numbers 14:11 Then the Lord said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?"
Numbers 16:30 "But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord."
1 Samuel 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them."
1 Samuel 10:19 "But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, `No, set a king over us!' "
​

The following verses clearly show Israel's election and rejection of God's grace. These verses are clearly contradictory to the erroneous theology of Irresistible Grace. Israel clearly rejected the call of God in the Old Testament, resisted the grace of the Lord Jesus in the New Testament, and resisted the call of the Spirit in the New Testament. Matthew 23:39 refers to Israel's acceptance of Jesus Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

Proverbs 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. 23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke, 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, 27 When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you."
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, `Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
Acts 7:51 "[You] stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] you. 52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 "who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept [it]."
​

We can see from the following verse on election that the individual had to be diligent in order to become one of the elect in the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That diligence is faith and obedience for which the person himself is responsible.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith [it] [is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- 27 to God, alone wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ forever.
​

 

[Boanerges]

The Early Church On Freewill

‘


The Early Church Fathers believed that only heretics rejected free-will. Unconditional predestination was not a doctrine for at least the first 400 years of the early church, that is until Augustine born in 354. SeeThe Sins Of Augustine

(All Emphasis Added)
JUSTIN MARTYR c.100-165 A.D.

• "But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand.
  

]IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII

• "This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . ."
  "If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."
  

ATHENAGORAS of Athens (2nd century). Embassy for Christians XXIV

• "Just as with men who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless), so is it among the angels"

THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century). To Autolycus XXVII

• "For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."

[TATIAN of Syria (flourished late 2nd century). Address XI

• "Why are you 'fated' to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it."

BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222. Fragments

• " 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?'
  ]if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."

CLEMENT of Alexandria c.150-215. Stromata Bk ii ch. 4

• "But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."[/SIZE]
  Stromata Bk iv ch. 12
  "But nothing is without the will of the Lord of the universe. It remains to say that such things happen without the prevention of God; for this alone saves both the providence and the goodness of God. We must not therefore think that He actively produces afflictions (far be it that we should think this!); but we must be persuaded that He does not prevent those that cause them, but overrules for good the crimes of His enemies."

TERTULLIAN of Carthage c.155-225 Against Marcion Book II ch.5I [/SIZE]

• find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .
  -you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.]
  . . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."

NOVATIAN of Rome c.200-258. On the Trinity ch 1

• "He also placed man at the head of the world, and man, too, made in the image of God, to whom He imparted mind, and reason, and foresight, that he might imitate God; and although the first elements of his body were earthly, yet the substance was inspired by a heavenly and divine breathing. And when He had given him all things for his service, He willed that he alone should be free. And lest, again, and unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his freewill in contempt of the law that was given."

ORIGEN c.185-254. De Principiis Preface

• "Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to everyone . . . This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition."
  De principiis Bk 3 ch. 1
  "There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will."

METHODIUS of Olympus c.260-martyred 311. The Banquet of the Ten Virgins xvi
"Now those who decide that man is not possessed of free-will, and affirm that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate . . . are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils."
Concerning Free-will
"I say that man was made with free-will, not as if there were already existing some evil, which he had the power of choosing if he wished . . . but that the power of obeying and disobeying God is the only cause."


ARCHELAUS

• The Disputation with Manes
  "For all creatures that God made, He made very good, and He gave to every individual the sense of free-will in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law of judgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God's gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin."

ARNOBIUS of Sicca c.253-327

• Against the Heathen: 64
  "I reply: does not He free all alike who invites all alike? Or does He thrust back or repel any one from the kindness of the Supreme who gives to all alike the power of coming to Him? To all, He says, the fountain of life is open, and no one is hindered or kept back from drinking . . . "
• 65
  "Nay, my opponent says, if God is powerful, merciful, willing to save us, let Him change our dispositions, and compel us to trust in His promises. This then, is violence, not kindness nor the bounty of the Supreme God, but a childish and vain strife in seeking to get the mastery. For what is so unjust as to force men who are reluctant and unworthy, to reverse their inclinations; to impress forcibly on their minds what they are unwilling to receive, and shrink from . . ."
  
  

CYRIL of Jerusalem c. 312-386

• Lecture IV
  18: "Know also that thou hast a soul self governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator, immortal because of God that gives it immortality, a living being rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it willeth."
  20: "There is not a class of souls sinning by nature and a class of souls practising righteousness by nature; but both act from choice, the substance of their souls being of one kind only and alike in all."
  21: "The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator of necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature."

GREGORY of Nyssa c.335-395. On Virginity (368/3G8) ch. XII

• "Being the image and the likeness . . . of the Power which rules all things, man kept also in the matter of a free-will this likeness to Him whose will is over all."

JEROME c.347-420. Letters CXXXIII

• ]"It is in vain that you misrepresent me and try to convince the ignorant that I condemn free-will. Let him who condemns it be himself condemned. We have been created endowed with free-will; still it is not this which distinguishes us from the brutes. For human free-will, as I said, depends upon the help of God and needs His aid moment by moment, a thing which you and yours do not choose to admit. Your position is that once a man has free-will he no longer needs the help of God. It is true that freedom of the will brings with it freedom of decision. Still man does not act immediately on his free-will but requires God's aid who Himself needs no aid."
  Against the Pelagians Book III, 10
  "But when we are concerned with grace and mercy, free-will is in part void; in part, I say, for so much depends upon it, that we wish and desire, and give assent to the course we choose. But it depends on God whether we have the power in His strength and with His help to perform what we desire, and to bring to effect our toil and effort."

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM 347-407. On Hebrews, Homily 12[/SIZE]

• "All is in God's power, but so that our free-will is not lost . . . It depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help . . . It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God's to perfect and bring to the end."
  

Quotes from God's Strategy in Human History by Roger T Forster & V Paul Marston

from the In Plain Site website

 

[Boanerges]

The Early Church- Origen on Predestiantion

‘”Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain who build it, Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain” Ps. 126 ( 127 ). This is not meant to deter us from building, or to counsel us not to be vigilant in guarding the city which is in our soul … We should do right in calling a building a work of God, rather than of the builder, and the preservation of a city from hostile attack we should rightly call an achievement of God rather than of the guard. But in so speaking we assume man’s share in the achievement, while in thankfulness we ascribe it to God who brings it to success. Similarly man’s will is not sufficient to attain the end (of salvation) (Rom. 9: 16), nor is the running of the metaphorical athletes competent to attain “the prize of the upward summons of God in Christ Jesus” Phil. 3:14. This is only accomplished with God’s assistance. Thus it is quite true, “it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy” Rom. 9:16. Our perfection does not come about by our remaining inactive, yet it is not accomplished by our own activity; God plays the great part in effecting it.’

 

[shipwrecksoul]

How many angels can sit on a head of a needle?

 

[RJ]

When people claim that they are saved- because- they chose- they " accepted"- becuase they were willing- they are taking credit for their own salvation by saying they were righteous enough in their flesh when they heard the gospel to get it for themselves.

Since the bible does not say to us, and we do not see the gospel being preached with things like " accept" " chose" " decide" and since this doctrine is based on people believing they- of themselves- " accepted" Him, instead of that He accepted them and chose them we can see it is false. It is not what is even preached anywhere in the gospel.

We are told as the gospel of salvation to BELIEVE and we are told that faith is a gift.

We are also told that it is God who calls, God who chooses, God who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

Either God gets the credit for our regeneration or we do.

God gets all the credited but you confuse a requirement from God as being that of works, just as if this choice or acceptance or decision on our part would be the same as "filthy rags" .

For right now, don't demand a passage that says accept, chose, decide.
Rather look a this set of verses, while understanding that the only sin attributal to man's spiritual death is that of unbelief.
Also, what is following is addressed to Israel's Unbelief and what it takes to be saved and not by following the "Law".:

<SUP>8</SUP>But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: <SUP id=en-NIV-28183 class=versenum>9</SUP>That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. <SUP id=en-NIV-28184 class=versenum>10</SUP>For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. <SUP id=en-NIV-28185 class=versenum>11</SUP>As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NIV-28186 class=versenum>12</SUP>For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, <SUP id=en-NIV-28187 class=versenum>13</SUP>for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10 :8-13

• confess with your mouth
• believe in your heart
• with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
• Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

These, my friend, no matter how you can turn them around, are actions required of us. If you want to call these works or "filithy rags", that is your right....But, you will never convince me of that!

When people claim that they are saved- because- they chose- they " accepted"- becuase they were willing- they are taking credit for their own salvation by saying they were righteous enough in their flesh when they heard the gospel to get it for themselves.

I personally called out from my heart to God. I told him that I was a sinner against His perfect will and nature. I then thank Jesus Christ for what he did on the cross for my forgiveness of those sins.
I then told Him that I was not capable of doing any of this on my own and asked HIm to come into my life, make me whole and set me free.

Jesus said: " I stand at the door and knock and anyone who opens the door , I will come in and sup with him."

I opened that door, not God, not Jesus but me!

Not one milligram in my being do I take credit for my own salvation or boast or take for granted who forgave me the gift of forgiveness and my ressurrected eternal like.

Jesus lives in me and I know full well who is in control!!!

 

[RJ]

When people claim that they are saved- because- they chose- they " accepted"- becuase they were willing- they are taking credit for their own salvation by saying they were righteous enough in their flesh when they heard the gospel to get it for themselves.

Ofcourse it is impossible for us to be righteous from ourselves:
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>15</SUP> O LORD, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."Job 9:15

<SUP>10</SUP>As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
Romans 3:10

And righteous has nothing to do with the flesh, righteousnous comes to us spiritually through faith it has nothing to do with works.

God says:

<SUP>14</SUP>Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. Mark 16:14

Their stubborn refusal..an action, a choice, decision to or not to

<SUP>5</SUP>Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13:5

Faith is a spiritual matter, nothing to do with the flesh, of this world or works.

<SUP>3</SUP>By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible Hebrews 11:3

<SUP>7</SUP>We live by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

<SUP>1</SUP>Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

do not see...spiritual

When a person steps out in faith and calls upon the name of the Lord, when they are truly "Born-Again", there is no question in their mind, this is a spiritual moment.

They step out and claim Jesus Christ for their Savior. It is an action, a spiritual action, recieving Him in your heart, nothing to do with the flesh but an action none the less and born of faith because it is believing in the unseen and not of this world.

Once you have done this action of faith, the Holy Spirit comes in and imparts His righteousness to you.

 

[Boanerges]

How many angels can sit on a head of a needle?

How many would actually want to?:shock:

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Faith4Bride

Have you accepted what God has done for you? (the focus not being on accepted) but the focus is on what God has done for you.

Have you accepted it was the Lord Jesus who died for you?(again the focus is not on accepted) the focus is on what God the Son has done for you.

Have you accepted that there's nothing you can do but trust what God has wonderfully done by taking out his justice that is meant for us on his Son at the cross because of the crimes committed by us?

Have you accepted all you need to do is call on Jesus as your Lord because he arose from the dead and is waiting for you to announce that truth of his death for you by calling on him.

Have you accepted all these truths as an overall promise from God for you.

Most of all have you accepted that you are a sinner in need of a Savior.

Dear Faith4Bride, You probably knew all of these truths already. My point being the word accepted when used correctly in regard to who we are fits perfectly in our choice to want to respond to God in knowing his power for us!

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Faith4Bride]

Have you accepted what God has done for you? (the focus not being on accepted) but the focus is on what God has done for you.

Have you accepted it was the Lord Jesus who died for you?(again the focus is not on accepted) the focus is on what God the Son has done for you.

Have you accepted that there's nothing you can do but trust what God has wonderfully done by taking out his justice that is meant for us on his Son at the cross because of the crimes committed by us?

Have you accepted all you need to do is call on Jesus as your Lord because he arose from the dead and is waiting for you to announce that truth of his death for you by calling on him.

Have you accepted all these truths as an overall promise from God for you.

Most of all have you accepted that you are a sinner in need of a Savior.

Dear Faith4Bride, You probably knew all of these truths already. My point being the word accepted when used correctly in regard to who we are fits perfectly in our choice to want to respond to God in knowing his power for us!

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

It is easy to ask a series of questions but that does not make them scriptural which is the problem here. No when I first heard I did not of myself just " accept " anything. There is no scripture for us accepting only for Him accepting us.- I did not call myself, draw myself, give myself faith, put my carnal mind to changing, renew my spirit, circumsie my own heart, make myself born again.

But it was GOD who called me, drew me, caused me to come unto him, circumsied my heart, gave me a new spirit, granted me repentance, gave me a gift of faith and made me a new creation in Christ Jesus and it was God who ordained this to happen and predesinted it from the foundation of the world having predestined me to adoption and to good works which he also ordained me to walk in and to be conformed into the image of Jesus.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Two apposing views:

• One states that your are saved by Election, that God, first selects you, regenerates you with the Holy Spirit and then causes you to believe.
• The second, states that your are saved by an act your of free will faith (belief) first, then you recieve the Holy Spirit and thus are then regenerated or have a renewing of your mind..

My vote is that you must exhibit a free will faith (belief) first.

My vote is God comes walking by the door of our heart and shows us his truth for us, the gospel. We respond to it. Or we reject it. Bang boom thats it. God informs the individual and so we either accept his mercy or not. Its all of God. Only God can regenerate a heart that is need full.

So its both, that Gods regenerates in mans admission of his need to want his mercy which was revealed to him by God.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

It is easy to ask a series of questions but that does not make them scriptural which is the problem here. No when I first heard I did not of myself just " accept " anything. There is no scripture for us accepting only for Him accepting us.- I did not call myself, draw myself, give myself faith, put my carnal mind to changing, renew my spirit, circumsie my own heart, make myself born again.

But it was GOD who called me, drew me, caused me to come unto him, circumsied my heart, gave me a new spirit, granted me repentance, gave me a gift of faith and made me a new creation in Christ Jesus and it was God who ordained this to happen and predesinted it from the foundation of the world having predestined me to adoption and to good works which he also ordained me to walk in and to be conformed into the image of Jesus.

The key is God revealing himself to us through the gospel. We either choose yes God I need you or no God I dont want you.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Faith4Bride]

The key is God revealing himself to us through the gospel. We either choose yes God I need you or no God I dont want you.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

the problem with this is it is not scriptrual. the fact that you had to get an OT verse, given to Israel who was already in a covenant with God shows it. the bible does not say we choose but that He chooses us. It never says their is a choice, it says we must Believe to be saved- not choose- and that the faith we have is given to us as a gift from God and is not of ourselves. Acts says when the gospel was preached " as many as were ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED"

Joshua said to Israel " choose this day who you will serve" because they already were in covenant with him but were walkign in sin. This is the differnce between you telling me as an already saved christian to repent of a sin and obey God- as opposed to someone who has no covenant with God, doesnt know him yet. It was people already in covenant told to choose to OBEY God. We are not speaking here of believers but of the lost. Here s what God says

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

WHO believes??
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Those who are saved were GIVEN to Jesus by the Father
Jhn 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Faith4Bride

Heeey. Was not Jesus God in the old testament as well. We as humans divide the two, old and new, in the course of discussion but Jesus was Lord then as he is now.
I dont think God sees it as different, do you? So if anyone uses Gods word in any part aint it from God? God treated everyone the same back then as he does now except for the one thing. He was manifested in the flesh and we can now know him because of his death at Calvary. His name happens to be Jesus, the Lord Jesus Christ.
So in our approach to want to know the living God more we can also look to the words of the old as well as the new as in the new Jesus said "I Am He" as in the old God says I am the God of Abraham Issac Jacob. Same God!

So
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

I may be shipwrecked but Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.