Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[spirit1st]

He Died for all HE tasted DEATH for All !He suffered for all!
But there is a condition!
We MUST accept HIS GOSPEL as TRUTH and HIM as LORD and MASTER , in order to have Salvation!

If we DO NOT believe His Gospel or Accept HIM in HIS Proper place as LORD and Master , Then we will Never have Salvation! He Cannot be Less than HE already is!

Many want Salvation, But refuse to accept Him as LORD and Master, Refuse to obey and follow Him!

Also , Unless we fully give Him all that we are and have , He cannot be LORD over us and lead and guide us and teach us and Make us NEW CREATURES!

He never forces us! He allows us free will to accept or reject , the free gift of Eternal life!

If willing We gain more than we can fully know! If we reject, then we suffer greatly here and much worse after we leave these bodies we are trapped in!

I thank GOD He allowed me this choice and I was seeking Him very hard!
I knew I wanted LOVE and looked for it ! HE revealed HIMSELF to me! I was so shocked , I had searched for LOVE , but did not understand it was HIM , all the time I wanted in my life!
GOD is LOVE! Love is the very core of mankind! We long for LOVE and Its GOD we really want a relationship ABOVE , everything else in our lives!
He is the true Purpose WE Were CREATED FOR!

satan has tricked many into thinking , money or sex or some other worldly thing , gives them LOVE. Nothing we see can fill this desire but GOD HIMSELF , though JESUS CHRIST!

Its so sad , mankind has mostly been tricked and blinded!
Once we truly know LOVE, GOD is LOVE! then nothing on earth ,can take HIS PLACE !
ITS LOVE WE ALL 100% WANT!

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
WE do not have to understand all of GODS living Word! But we Must Accept it All as truth!

It All fits PERFECTLY together , forming One Perfect Picture and TRUTH!
We Never reject one scripture over another ! All fit perfect together!
Everything in the bible is to teach and guide us , that we might be a living Blessing to others!

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I hope this blesses someone for MY LORDS Glory and Honor!

 

[rojoloco]

Christ died on the cross to forgive all, he died then ,for the believers and especially for all the non-beleivers.

If forgiving all without exception was Christ's mission, he failed miserably. If one is forgiven, he will not be punished as there is no charge held against him. Obviously, people still go to Hell which means they have a charge against them in which they are found guilty. Again, if Christ's mission was to save all mankind without exception (and not just without distinction as is my stance), then he is the biggest failure of all time.

Or you can look at it in the appropriate context which is:

Christ's mission was not to save all mankind without exception. It was to save all mankind without distinction. All of the Elect will be saved as Christ never fails to fulfill his mission. He came to forgive the Elect. He came to die for the Elect. He came to save the Elect. In all these areas, he fulfilled his mission to completion with 100% effectiveness and zero failures. It is indeed ALL. It is ALL mankind without distinction; without reference to race, color, or creed. His death is sufficient for all but only efficient for the Elect.

 

[RJ]

If forgiving all without exception was Christ's mission, he failed miserably. If one is forgiven, he will not be punished as there is no charge held against him. Obviously, people still go to Hell which means they have a charge against them in which they are found guilty. Again, if Christ's mission was to save all mankind without exception (and not just without distinction as is my stance), then he is the biggest failure of all time.

Or you can look at it in the appropriate context which is:

Christ's mission was not to save all mankind without exception. It was to save all mankind without distinction. All of the Elect will be saved as Christ never fails to fulfill his mission. He came to forgive the Elect. He came to die for the Elect. He came to save the Elect. In all these areas, he fulfilled his mission to completion with 100% effectiveness and zero failures. It is indeed ALL. It is ALL mankind without distinction; without reference to race, color, or creed. His death is sufficient for all but only efficient for the Elect.

The bible does say a lot about election but your 'Election Only is incorrect.

Your quote:

If forgiving all without exception was Christ's mission, he failed miserably. If one is forgiven, he will not be punished as there is no charge held against him.

You are confused with the gospel and, your above quote is proof of that:

• You are confused with the relationship between forgiveness and punishment. Forgivess is for sins only, it has nothing to do with punishment.
• St. Paul said: " Therefore there is no condemnation for THOSE IN CHRIST! The cross forgives but it does not automatically save and exclude us from punishment.
• The cross can not impart Christ's righteousness, only Christ in us can.
• Those who have recieved the resurrected life of Christ (Those in Christ) will have no punishment. The cross is a precursor to a state of blamelessness but only the resurrected life of Christ can give us Christ's righteousness and our Blamelessness.
• Christ death on the cross forgives only.
• His death is a precursor to our salvation but does not give salvation.
• It is impossible for his earthly body ( before resurrection) and some wood and nails to save.
• but His blood does forgive and forgives all because He was the last blood sacrifice.
• After forgiveness and after death and with ONLY the resurrected life of Jesus Christ are you saved.
• St. Paul himself said that with out the resurrection, the cross was meaningless and if we do not accept the resurrection as the "eternal Life' giving , then we are to be pitied above all men.
• You confuse the forgiveness of the cross with the saving power of the resurrected life of Jesus Christ.

And here is the most damaging part of your theology:
It can and will lead other believers, of YOUR theology, to fall victim to unworthyness in self and a bondage that God does not love them and therefore will not elect them!!!!


I will tell you one more thing that you can't believe in because of your "Election Only" theology:

God loves the unbeliver as much as He loves the believer!!!

I have seen you on TJ before with your theology and I respect your right to voice your opinion, but you must respect my belief in apposing yours.


And, I will add this:

With the beliefs that I have stated and others that join me, there is no possibility of a negative outcome as with your belief.

 

[spirit1st]

If forgiving all without exception was Christ's mission, he failed miserably. I

How can You judge GOD!
Have you seen the end or judgment say or anything HE has desired!

Funny how people want to judge there CREATOR as if they know more than HE knows!

He has gained many children, I can say i am one! And I am VERY sure He has gained lots more!
He gained the ones who were willing ! and All HE wanted was those willing!
It was never HIS desire to force any! Heaven is build on LOVE not force!

I think , You do not know HIS MIND but seem to judge by your mind!
No one can , do anything against HIS WILL and HIS purpose will be fulfilled no matter what we might think!

 

[Boanerges]

I do not claim to be great at figuring out the mysteries of the universe but I can take God at His Word.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
The world is (much to the chargrin of some) is just that the world.Whosover means just that- whosoever
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[spirit1st]

AMEN!
I know and am sure ! HIS mind is far beyond ALL our minds put to together!
That is WHY , We trust HIM Above Anyone or anything else!
HE saw it ALL 100% before HE created the foundation of the earth!

Meaning the planets that hold us in place!

 

[Ncdataman]

I am starting to notice a bad tone to the course of this discussion, While I personally do not believe in Hyper-Calvinism and do not preach on it, I have noticed some posts almost taking on a personal attack stance. Remember to pray before you post. If I continue to see this thread going downhill I will close it and infract anyone resorting to attacking posts. If you have any questions feel free to pm me.

In Christ,

NC

 

[spirit1st]

The TRUTH is so very important and it sets us FREE!
There is always scriptures that cause us to disagree! But , Once they are seen , then the Spirit of truth can reveal the truth to us with the correct understand and hopefully we will see correctly! None of us have 100% truth . We are all growing as time goes by , HE can and will cause us to grow to understand more and to be more like our LORD outwardly!
We already are like our LORD in our Spirit! But the outward man or thinking i should say,. Will change !All our misunderstanding are in our flesh mind!
It is not wrong to disagree! Its never if we LOVE our LORD , A personal attack on the person, But it is a personal attack on there thinking!
WE LOVE our brothers and sisters Always! We might not like there thinking in certain things! WE never think less of them! We just want them to know the TRUTH! The Truth is what frees us!
Every one of us are GROWING ! Not one of us have everything !
Each is needed to make up the body! Each are Very important to others in HIS body! We cannot stand alone ever! We need what the others parts are given!
None are greater or less! All under ONE HEAD JESUS CHRIST!
It will not offend me to attack me ever! It hurts me MUCH more if MY Creator is thought less than what HE is! HE is LOVE , everything HE ever did was our of Pure Perfect LOVE ! I see hell as a act of LOVE!
I know and am sure ? Everything is done for our sake!
I could say more . but the post as grown too much already!

 

[Ncdataman]

Let me clarify, my brothers and sisters, I have no issue with your discussion itself, however if a new believer was to read this thread it would not be to God's glory, all it shows is Christians acting the same way the world acts, attacking each other. We are to be different, not mirror images of the world, I would hate to see someone looking for Christ to read something here and be pushed away. Please feel free to continue your discussion but I ask you again to pray before you post. Feel free to pm if you have questions.

In Christ,

NC

 

[spirit1st]

If forgiving all without exception was Christ's mission, he failed miserably. If one is forgiven, he will not be punished as there is no charge held against him. Obviously, people still go to Hell which means they have a charge against them in which they are found guilty. Again, if Christ's mission was to save all mankind without exception (and not just without distinction as is my stance), then he is the biggest failure of all time.

Or you can look at it in the appropriate context which is:

Christ's mission was not to save all mankind without exception. It was to save all mankind without distinction. All of the Elect will be saved as Christ never fails to fulfill his mission. He came to forgive the Elect. He came to die for the Elect. He came to save the Elect. In all these areas, he fulfilled his mission to completion with 100% effectiveness and zero failures. It is indeed ALL. It is ALL mankind without distinction; without reference to race, color, or creed. His death is sufficient for all but only efficient for the Elect.

We must stand up for OUR CREATOR and TRUTH!
They must see GOD as PURE PERFECT LOVE and does not make mistakes!

We cannot allow them to think our CREATOR is a failture!

WE must All always see our LORD as pure Love and know that everything He ever did was out of Love for us!

He is perfect and LOVES all mankind! and wants us all to accept HIm , Because we want too!
And will accept All who is willing !
This i guess is the most serious topic of All SALVATION!
Nothing is More important to mankind , than SALVATION!

He died for All mankind! 100%

had HE died for just a few? then He would have said , some will not be saved no matter what! But He died for All!
Any of us can be saved if we want ?

satan always wants to attack our faith , he does not want us to have faith !
We Must believe GODS wants us as HIS children!
We cannot put this doubt in others minds!
They Must know GOD LOVES them VERY MUCH !

 

[Boanerges]

I am starting to notice a bad tone to the course of this discussion, While I personally do not believe in Hyper-Calvinism and do not preach on it, I have noticed some posts almost taking on a personal attack stance. Remember to pray before you post. If I continue to see this thread going downhill I will close it and infract anyone resorting to attacking posts. If you have any questions feel free to pm me.

In Christ,

NC

I am definitely guilty of being a zealot for Christ and His Word. If I offended anyone I apologize as that was not my intent.

 

[spirit1st]

I also am sorry if I hurt others feeling! I might not have expressed as I should?

I trust MY FATHER GOD and HIS PERFECTION!

 

[rojoloco]

Here is a really great excerpt from the John MacArthur Commentary I own:

-----------

God's Role In Salvation

Who is responsible for individual salvation -- God or the person? Put another way, "Did God sovereignly elect us and save us? Or did He act in accord with what He knew we would do?" In other words,, "Who makes the first move?"

The following material summarizes what Scripture teaches about God's role in salvation. Look up each passage to sense the overwhelming nature of God being the 'first cause' or initiator of a believer's salvation.

God wills

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,......also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

God draws

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

God grants

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

God calls

so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

God appoints

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

God predestines

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,.......also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

God prepares

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

God causes

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

God chooses

knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

God purposes

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

God delivers and transforms

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

God saves

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

God makes us alive

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

God pours out His Spirit

whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

God brings us forth

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

God justifies

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

God sanctifies

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God glorifies

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[RJ]

Rojoloco......Originally Posted by John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your montage of verse we all know.

Most of us here believe that, as the scripture says,:
"you are saved through YOUR faith (which is belief) in Grace".

In your first quoting of verse above , says the same thing:

"But as many as received Him" :

as many as: means all, not just a chosen few

received: a verb that means an action

Revelation 3:20 (King James Version)
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30767">20</sup>Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

No one here at TJ, that I know of, argues that God is the initiator.


But, that is a far cry from your original stance that God saves only who He elects.
God stands at everyone's door.

I look back and see where He had been knocking on my door for a long time. I was a regular church member for 30 years before "I" "answered that door" and, received him.


" Anyone who receives Him, He gave the right to be called a child of God."

We are not saved through "Election Only".

I don't know what goes on in the "other realm" where God is, who of us can really say.

But in our physical plane, world, this is a truth:

God knocks
you receive
He elects

 

[rojoloco]

In your first quoting of verse above , says the same thing:

"But as many as received Him" :

as many as: means all, not just a chosen few

Actually, this is not true at all. It clearly limits the recipients by saying "as many as" which implies it is not all inclusive. Not all but only as many as...

received: a verb that means an action

You are correct. It is an action. However, it is an action that God initiates, not us. We are the recipient of something that He does to us through regeneration.

Revelation 3:20 (King James Version)
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30767">20</sup>Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

No one here at TJ, that I know of, argues that God is the initiator.

But, that is a far cry from your original stance that God saves only who He elects.
God stands at everyone's door.

You are correct again. He does stand at everyone's door. This does not mean everyone will come to Him. This is because many people reject Him. In fact, all people reject Him because they hate the Light. The only ones to open the door are those who are first regenerated, become new creatures in Christ, are rebirthed by the Holy Spirit, and cling to God as a newborn baby clings to its parents. Without regeneration, it is impossible to open any door however, after regeneration, it is equally as impossible to not open it.

I look back and see where He had been knocking on my door for a long time. I was a regular church member for 30 years before "I" "answered that door" and, received him.

You know what the Bible says about boasting. I stake no claim in God's work within me. All glory is reserved for Him and I reserve none for myself.

" Anyone who receives Him, He gave the right to be called a child of God."

We are not saved through "Election Only".

And the only ones who will receive Him are the ones who are given to the Son by the Father.

But in our physical plane, world, this is a truth:

God knocks
you receive
He elects

It is impossible to elect something that happens by mere chance. Election implies sovereign decrees. The only possible order is:

calling
regeneration
faith
repentance
justification
adoption
sanctification
perseverance
glorification

There is a great quote by John Murray:

"We are not born again by faith or repentence or conversion; we repent and believe because we have been regenerated.....No one can say in truth that Jesus is the Christ except by regeneration of the Spirit and that is one of the ways by which the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ. The embrace of Christ in faith is the first evidence of regeneration and only thus may we know that we have been regenerated." -- John Murray

 

[spirit1st]

THE called and Elect worship together side by side in most churches !
One has given all they have and are to our LORD JESUS CHRIST! The other refuses to for some reason!
Both hear and fell the Holy Spirit! One has the Holy Spirit with in them!
WE Must really give ourselves to HIM 100%!
All the elect were once called!
But, All the called do not appear to accept Him as LORD AND MASTER!
The called can fall away. Like demas did! He traveled with Paul , pretty sure he too did miracles and led others to the LORD , yet it amazes me ,He never accepted the LORD!
Col 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[rojoloco]

THE called and Elect worship together side by side in most churches !
One has given all they have and are to our LORD JESUS CHRIST! The other refuses to for some reason!
Both hear and fell the Holy Spirit! One has the Holy Spirit with in them!
WE Must really give ourselves to HIM 100%!
All the elect were once called!
But, All the called do not appear to accept Him as LORD AND MASTER!
The called can fall away. Like demas did! He traveled with Paul , pretty sure he too did miracles and led others to the LORD , yet it amazes me ,He never accepted the LORD!
Col 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What you describe is not so much the called of God but rather, the called of man. Man calls everybody without bias. We are called to preach Christ crucified throughout the nations. We are called to be fishers of men. We call everyone who will hear to listen to the Gospel. However, many reject this external call because they are bound by their very nature. They hate God and cannot turn to God while bound in their present condition. It is only after God regenerates someone that they are freed from their chains and see God for who He is. This is where the internal call of God comes into play. It is only offered to those who are regenerated and those who will be regenerated are limited to the Elect. However, just as one has no choice but to reject the gospel while bound to their sinful nature, one has equal choice (meaning none) in embracing Christ fully once they have been reborn in Him.

 

[spirit1st]

WE only give the gospel then its up to the HOLY GHOST to deal with them!

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
IF we do not have this LOVE? We need to ask our LORD to put it in us


Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,



1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Of course God initiates Salvation. But, that does not invalidate our God given right to choose to accept it. Its similar to a loving earthly father offering ice cream to his child on a hot summer day; He offers it and the child gleefully and thankfully accepts the offer.

SLE

 

[spirit1st]

THIS proves , God gave every man , a measure opf FAITH so they all could receive SALVATION!

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

GOD gave each person enough faith to be saved!
Why else would our LORD , give mankind the thing HE CREATED all that was ever created!

WE could NOT be SAVED without Faith !