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Power in Hell?

Regarding the thief see Psalm 49:14
Was Jesus perhaps letting him know that today He has (will) become his Shepherd as death is swallowed up in victory?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 25:8

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:18

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25
I would submit that Jesus is answering the thief's request. The thief wanted Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. That's at the resurrection. The thief wanted to be resurrected and enter the Kingdom. He didn't know if he would make it into the kingdom and asks Jesus to remember him at that time. Rather than making the thief die not knowing if he would make it into the Kingdom Jesus gives His judgment that day. He said, truly, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise. Jesus told him that day, that he would be in the Kingdom. Now the thief could die being assured that when the kingdom was instituted, he would enter into it.
 
I'm not sure where you saw that. However, do you know the credibility of the translators of the version you read? Do you know thoer credentials? Do you know where they went to seminary? I doubt it. Do you even know their names without looking to see? You probably know more about what I believe than you do about those translators. So the credibility argument is really not valid. That translators makes mistakes is easily seen. They're all taught the theology of the seminary they attend. If they attend a Baptist seminary they learn Baptiat theology If they attend a Presbyterian seminary they learn Presbyterian theology. We know all of the denominations have teachings that are wrong. So, it's no hard to see that translators make errors. Compare a Catholic translation to a Protestant one.

Know we don't know th as t Jesus went to a garden when He died. We know He was laid in the tomb. He rose on the 3rd day. That means on day one and two Je wasim the tomb. Also, the Bible doesn't teach that dead people go to the garden. Well, I guess maybe if one considers a cemetary a garden.


Butch5 -- I use the NKJ Bible -- New King James Version -- very well-known and used by Many people.

Look at Matthew 26 :39 -- Jesus ' prayer to the Father takes place at the garden of Gethsemane -- from there vs 57 he was led away to Caiaphas the high priest and Then He went to Pontius pilate and which is in ch 27 and in vs 33 they had come to a place called Golgotha / Place of a Skull vs 35 'then they crucified Him vs 45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land, vs 50 "And Jesus cried out again with a lou voice, and yielded up His spirit

vs 51 the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split 52 and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep (died) were raised.

So -- You might want to re-check what Your translation says.

I'm reading from God's Word.
 
Butch5 -- you're free to submit anything you Want to.

The one thief was recognizing that he Did deserve death but that Jesus Didn't. He was recognizing Jesus Christ as who He was. He 'accepted Christ' as they were both dying. And Jesus Christ was assuring the thief that his faith was saving /had just saved him. A death bed conversion.
 
Regarding the thief see Psalm 49:14
Was Jesus perhaps letting him know that today He has (will) become his Shepherd as death is swallowed up in victory?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 25:8

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:18

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25
I would submit that Jesus is answering the thief's request. The thief wanted Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. That's at the resurrection. The thief wanted to be resurrected and enter the Kingdom. He didn't know if he would make it into the kingdom and asks Jesus to remember him at that time. Rather than making the thief die not knowing if he would make it into the Kingdom Jesus gives His judgment that day. He said, truly, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise. Jesus told him that day that he would be in the Kingdom. Now the thief could die being assured that he would in fact enter the Kingdom.
Butch5 -- I use the NKJ Bible -- New King James Version -- very well-known and used by Many people.

Look at Matthew 26 :39 -- Jesus ' prayer to the Father takes place at the garden of Gethsemane -- from there vs 57 he was led away to Caiaphas the high priest and Then He went to Pontius pilate and which is in ch 27 and in vs 33 they had come to a place called Golgotha / Place of a Skull vs 35 'then they crucified Him vs 45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land, vs 50 "And Jesus cried out again with a lou voice, and yielded up His spirit

vs 51 the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split 52 and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep (died) were raised.

So -- You might want to re-check what Your translation says.

I'm reading from God's Word.
Yeah, it says the graves were opened and many of the saints who had died came out. It doesn't say Jesus went anywhere and lead anyone out.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But I believe you are reading your theology into the text.
 
I'm not sure where you saw that. However, do you know the credibility of the translators of the version you read? Do you know thoer credentials? Do you know where they went to seminary? I doubt it. Do you even know their names without looking to see? You probably know more about what I believe than you do about those translators. So the credibility argument is really not valid. That translators makes mistakes is easily seen. They're all taught the theology of the seminary they attend. If they attend a Baptist seminary they learn Baptiat theology If they attend a Presbyterian seminary they learn Presbyterian theology. We know all of the denominations have teachings that are wrong. So, it's no hard to see that translators make errors. Compare a Catholic translation to a Protestant one.

Know we don't know th as t Jesus went to a garden when He died. We know He was laid in the tomb. He rose on the 3rd day. That means on day one and two Je wasim the tomb. Also, the Bible doesn't teach that dead people go to the garden. Well, I guess maybe if one considers a cemetary a garden.


"know we don't know th as t Jesus went to a garden when He died." I don't recall anyone saying that Jesus died in the garden of Gethsamanee -- your sentence sounded like that was being questioned.

Actually -- its' your attitude towards the credibility of those who put the Bible together -- what Bible do You use that would make it totally accurate in every single phrase, etc.
 
1 Peter 3:18 - 20 vs 19 especially. That is what was happening. That Jesus did go / descend / to the hell part of Abrahams' bosom to give the non-believers another chance to accept and Then to take the believers who were waiting for the death , burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ to take place. He took them back up with Him.
 
Regarding the thief see Psalm 49:14
Was Jesus perhaps letting him know that today He has (will) become his Shepherd as death is swallowed up in victory?

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 25:8

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:18

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25
I would submit that Jesus is answering the thief's request. The thief wanted Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. That's at the resurrection. The thief wanted to be resurrected and enter the Kingdom. He didn't know if he would make it into the kingdom and asks Jesus to remember him at that time. Rather than making the thief die not knowing if he would make it into the Kingdom Jesus gives His judgment that day. He said, truly, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise. Jesus told him that day that he would be in the Kingdom. Now the thief could die being assured that he would in fact enter the Kingdom.
"know we don't know th as t Jesus went to a garden when He died." I don't recall anyone saying that Jesus died in the garden of Gethsamanee -- your sentence sounded like that was being questioned.

Actually -- its' your attitude towards the credibility of those who put the Bible together -- what Bible do You use that would make it totally accurate in every single phrase, etc.
I don't have an attitude towards the credibility of the translators. I simply acknowledge that they, like everyone else, can make errors. They, like everyone else, interpret the Scriptures based on their presuppositions. What makes them different from anyone else? They're trained at seminary. So, if they attend a Baptist semenary they learn Baptist theology. If they attend Presbyterian, they learn Presbyterian theology. The point is their taught a theology. That theology becomes a presupposition through which they interpret the Scriptures. Surely you can see this? Surely you don't believe that every single translator believes the same things?

What I find interesting is this inconsistency. When some mentions something from a commentary you reject it saying it's from the minds of men. Your translation also comes through the minds of men. If they don't understand the Scriptures correctly, it's not like they'll interpret or translate them correctly. This passage about the thief is a good example. There is no punctuation in the original text
Therefore the punctuation is completely up to the translator. We see in this verse that most all of them put the comma in the wrong place. The placement of the comma completely changes the meaning of the verse. They put the comma before the word today indicating that Jesus and the thief would be in Paradise that day. However, Scripture tells us that Jesus was placed in the tomb that day. Placing the comma after the word today harmonizes with the Bible andKesus being placed in the tomb that day. This shows beyond a doubt where the conma should go.

But, I am interested, why do you automatically reject the commentary that comes through the mind of man, but not a translation that comes through the mind of man?
 
Butch5 -- what Bible translation do you read that you have total confidence in?

Do you realize the intricacies involved In the translating process between languages? Have you read how the KJV was put together?

My sister and brother-in-law were missionaries in Brazil for 40 yrs. As part of their retirement -- they work with Horizons. They put together courses on seminary -level for pastors in Brazil. She does the grammar and Terry the graphics.

One of the courses my brother-in-law took was translating the book of 1 John from the original into English. I was staying with them at the time.

No two languages have the same alphabet -- depending on what you're translating From one language to another - there Will be words / phrases that Can't be translated directly. The translator's goal is to get the closest possible meaning for each verse possible taking into consideration the 'figures of speech' understood in one language to another. God's salvation is the Most important feature of His Word. And languages Do change in subtle ways over the years.

The English spoken in U.S. A. has changed since the days of King James 1. But basic salvation has Not changed. Bible doctrine has Not changed.

Commentaries Are written by men who have done a lot of studying. Personally, I've never used one. Even in Precepts classes - we are told to read passages for ourselves at least a couple of times and Then, we can read a commentary if we want and see if there are any differences. In doing our own studying -- we ask the 5 W's. And there's one "H" in the process.

The placing of a comma does Not really change anything in that or most any passage.

Punctuation is used to make a passage read more clearly. Flow more smoothly. Not to compromise that teachings.

The original texts were written in Greek and Hebrew and some Armaic -- so, of course, their punctuation -- grammatical structure is going to be different. But God told them what to put down. God's Word Is perfect.

Personally, I'm thankful to have God's Word in a language that I can read -- on my own -- learning from Godly pastors -- and the Holy Spirit's guidance.
 
1 Peter 3:18 - 20 vs 19 especially. That is what was happening. That Jesus did go / descend / to the hell part of Abrahams' bosom to give the non-believers another chance to accept and Then to take the believers who were waiting for the death , burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ to take place. He took them back up with Him.

You believe that hell is in Abraham's chest? What does Abraham have to do with hell.
Sue, this passage says no such thing. Let's look at the passage.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1 Pet. 3:18-20 KJV)

Look at the order of evens. Christ suffered for sin, then He was put to death, then He was quickened or made alive by the Spirit, then He went and preached, or more accurately, made a proclamation. So, when He preached, He was alive, it was after He was resurrected. This passage is not saying that Christ, as some disembodied being went down to hell and preached to dead people. The passage doesn't use the word euaggelion which is usually translated gospel. It uses another word that means to make aproclamation or to herald something. So what did Jesus proclaim? Peter tells us.

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:22 NKJ)

These are the spirits in prison. It's the demons that are being held for judgment.

This is why I talk about presuppositions so much. Because you believe that some part of dead people lives on. It affects the way you look at and interpret passages of Scripture. This belief leads to the idea that some part of Jesus was alive, when the Scriptures say He was dead, and that this part went to some place where the supposed living parts of other dead people were and He preached to them and lead them away. This idea causes one to conflate Paradise, a garden, with Abraham's bosom, a man chest. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Abraham didn't have a garden on his chest. When a doctrine leads to conclusions that don't make sense we really should begin to question that doctrine. When we have to start believing bazaar things in order to hold a doctrine it's probably not correct doctrine.

Hades is the grave. That can be seen clearly from the passage of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)

The passage says that the Rich Man was buried. Then it says "and being in Hades". So, the Rich Man being buried, and being in Hades is the same thing. He was buried in a grave. Hades is the grave. Hades has nothing to do with Abraham's chest.

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son1, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:18 NKJ)
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Jn. 13:23 NKJ)

Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. John leaned on Jesus' bosom. What are these? John was leaning on Jesus' chest. To be in someones bosom means to be close to them. It's an intimate relationship. Jesus in the Father's bosom shows an intimate relationship between Jesus and the Father. John on Jesus' bosom indicates a intimate relationship.

5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in Abraham's bosom and she conceived. Being in Abraham's bosom meant being in an intimate relationship with Abraham. Thus Lazarus, who is likely a portrayal of Jesus, is in an intimate relationship with Abraham. Abraham is embracing his long promised seed.

Abraham's bosom has absolutely nothing to do with hell.
 
Butch5 -- what Bible translation do you read that you have total confidence in?

Do you realize the intricacies involved In the translating process between languages? Have you read how the KJV was put together?

My sister and brother-in-law were missionaries in Brazil for 40 yrs. As part of their retirement -- they work with Horizons. They put together courses on seminary -level for pastors in Brazil. She does the grammar and Terry the graphics.

One of the courses my brother-in-law took was translating the book of 1 John from the original into English. I was staying with them at the time.

No two languages have the same alphabet -- depending on what you're translating From one language to another - there Will be words / phrases that Can't be translated directly. The translator's goal is to get the closest possible meaning for each verse possible taking into consideration the 'figures of speech' understood in one language to another. God's salvation is the Most important feature of His Word. And languages Do change in subtle ways over the years.

The English spoken in U.S. A. has changed since the days of King James 1. But basic salvation has Not changed. Bible doctrine has Not changed.

Commentaries Are written by men who have done a lot of studying. Personally, I've never used one. Even in Precepts classes - we are told to read passages for ourselves at least a couple of times and Then, we can read a commentary if we want and see if there are any differences. In doing our own studying -- we ask the 5 W's. And there's one "H" in the process.

The placing of a comma does Not really change anything in that or most any passage.

Punctuation is used to make a passage read more clearly. Flow more smoothly. Not to compromise that teachings.

The original texts were written in Greek and Hebrew and some Armaic -- so, of course, their punctuation -- grammatical structure is going to be different. But God told them what to put down. God's Word Is perfect.

Personally, I'm thankful to have God's Word in a language that I can read -- on my own -- learning from Godly pastors -- and the Holy Spirit's guidance.

I don't have total confidence in any one single translation. I use different ones and compare them. However, you're proving my point. Languages differ. Translators have to make decisions about things such a grammar, word order, etc. If there isn't a word for word translation, then the translator has to find what he/she believes is the most accurate way to get that principle across. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they don't understand something correctly. Do you understand everything in your English Bible? I doubt that you do. How much harder then is it for a translator to understand every single thing in the Bible in a language that is not his/her native language.

Regarding the comma, I simply have to disagree. The statement completely changes.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

With this punctuation the translator has Jesus and the thief in paradise that very day. When we move the comma to before the word today it changes the meaning.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

With this punctuation we have Jesus saying it that day, not that He and the thief would be there that day.

I'll give you another example.

Let's eat, grandma.

Let's eat grandma.

The first example has someone saying to their grandma, let's eat.
The second example has someone suggesting cannibalism to a third person, suggesting that they eat grandma. So, a comma can make a world of difference depending on it's placement.
 
Context -- Context -- context.

So -- what translations Do you use.

ANd, no , I'm Not 'proving your point' I'm stating Facts.

It Is called 'having Faith in God's Word'. It's Not man's word we're working with. It's God's Word.
 
Butch5 -- the reality is that you don't trust anything except the original and Then you'd probably argue about the Real meaning behind the Greek / Hebrew / Armaic meanings.

And - in reality -- Truth is probably Your truth. If you don't agree with a particular 'truth' then it's probably 'them' and not your potentially faulty view of Truth.

No real point in continuing.
 
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

As should be obvious as no one has been resurrected from the dead except Jesus as of this day, 2000 years later. And even Jesus himself lay dead for 3 days before resurrection.
And to add that without being born again of the Spirit that wasn't given out til the day of Pentecost no man could understand (see) the kingdom of God. Jesus had not yet been glorified so the Holy Ghost was not yet given the DAY that was said to the thief. But will the thief be with the Lord in paradise? Yes! As ALL are to be reconciled.
 
Context -- Context -- context.

So -- what translations Do you use.

ANd, no , I'm Not 'proving your point' I'm stating Facts.

It Is called 'having Faith in God's Word'. It's Not man's word we're working with. It's God's Word.

Contex, yes. But you're not using it.

You are making my case. You admitted that translators have to make decisions.

It's God's word translated through the mind of men.
 
Butch5 -- the reality is that you don't trust anything except the original and Then you'd probably argue about the Real meaning behind the Greek / Hebrew / Armaic meanings.

And - in reality -- Truth is probably Your truth. If you don't agree with a particular 'truth' then it's probably 'them' and not your potentially faulty view of Truth.

No real point in continuing.
I don't blindly accept what people say. That's because I used to. I was taught many of the same doctrines you espouse and upon further and more in depth study have discovered that they are wrong. That I see thousands if not millions of Christians espousing doctrines that are demonstrably false just further supports my conclusion that I shouldn't accept what people say without in depth study. The "Immortal Soul" doctrine that s many espouse is demonstrably false. We find in Paul's words to Timothy that the Father alone has immortality. That means that millions who hold the "Immortal Soul" doctrine are incorrect. So, no, I'm not going to blindly accept what people say, whether they're a pastor, a commentator, or a translator.
 
As should be obvious as no one has been resurrected from the dead except Jesus as of this day, 2000 years later. And even Jesus himself lay dead for 3 days before resurrection.
And to add that without being born again of the Spirit that wasn't given out til the day of Pentecost no man could understand (see) the kingdom of God. Jesus had not yet been glorified so the Holy Ghost was not yet given the DAY that was said to the thief. But will the thief be with the Lord in paradise? Yes! As ALL are to be reconciled.
One day he will be. My point was that it wasn't the day he was hanging on the cross.
 
So -- it sounds like you're putting Your interpretation of Scripture above everyone elses. And ,as a result of Your personal in-depth study of God's Word -- You are assured that You have it right.
 
1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE, EVEN so in Christ shall ALL be MADE ALIVE."

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offense of one(Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF ONE (Jesus)
the FREE GIFT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE."

THE CONDEMNATION WAS A DECREE FROM GOD AND SO WAS THE JUSTIFICATION AS A FREE GIFT. REMEMBER I QUOTED YOU THAT THE GIFTS AND CALLING
OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE. HE WILL NEVER REMOVE THE GIFT UNTIL ALL HAVE BEEN MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST. THEN SHALL DEATH BE DESTROYED
WHICH IS THE LAST ENEMY.


IN SHORT YES!!!!
 
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