Power in Hell?

[Sue D.]

Where else Would we be when we die -- not in limbo -- it's either heaven or hell Waiting for eternity to begin.

Did you read John 14. Where is 'My Fathers' House'. Since Jesus ascended back up to heaven -- it makes sense that That is where it's being referred to.

2 Corinthians 5:8 the context of that chapter. vs 6 and 8.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Butch5.
You do not need scripture to know heaven.

1 Corinthians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

A saved person knows they go to heaven, an unsaved person doesn't. Many saved people, like myself, were saved without biblical knowledge and studied the bible afterwards.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Butch5

Here another verse. You see, everlasting life equals heaven.

John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Butch5]

Where else Would we be when we die -- not in limbo -- it's either heaven or hell Waiting for eternity to begin.

Did you read John 14. Where is 'My Fathers' House'. Since Jesus ascended back up to heaven -- it makes sense that That is where it's being referred to.

2 Corinthians 5:8 the context of that chapter. vs 6 and 8.

Dead. That's why the dead are called the dead. If they were alive they'd be called the living.

John 14 doesn't say people go to Heaven
It talks about Jesus going away. However, He says He'll come back so that the disciples can be with him.

2 Cor. 5 is about the resurrection. Paul speaks of putting immortality on over mortality. Paul didnt adhere to Greek Philosophy

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5

Here another verse. You see, everlasting life equals heaven.

John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It doesn't. That life is on earth. However, that passage doesn't even mention Heaven

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5.
You do not need scripture to know heaven.

1 Corinthians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

A saved person knows they go to heaven, an unsaved person doesn't. Many saved people, like myself, were saved without biblical knowledge and studied the bible afterwards.

How exactly do you know that? It's not in the Scriptures.

 

[Sue D.]

@Rockerduck -- Faith comes from hearing God's Word. What do you consider Biblical knowledge About salvation.

@Butch5 -- Where would everlasting life be taking place. Everyone -- Most everyone does die physically. Our physical body will get buried or cremated. but our Soul lives on.

The passage John 5:24 -- passed from death into life. Physical life that ends and the spirit / soul/ into the After life. And That life will be either in heaven or hell.

When a person is quoting Scripture -- That means it Is in Scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

But, yes, a person doesn't need to know that much Scripture to be saved, and we Are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. And THAT means reading the Bible and learning and sharing.

 

[Butch5]

@Rockerduck -- Faith comes from hearing God's Word. What do you consider Biblical knowledge About salvation.

@Butch5 -- Where would everlasting life be taking place. Everyone -- Most everyone does die physically. Our physical body will get buried or cremated. but our Soul lives on.

The passage John 5:24 -- passed from death into life. Physical life that ends and the spirit / soul/ into the After life. And That life will be either in heaven or hell.

When a person is quoting Scripture -- That means it Is in Scripture.

Not when you misunderstand that Scripture.

In that passage He's talking about judgment. He's passed from death to life and does not come into judgment. The very next verse explains these people .

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Notice He says that an hour is coming when the dead will hear His voice and live. Notice, they were dead and they will live. He didn't say dead bodies would live. He said the dead will live.

However, that passage says nothing about going to Heaven.

People who hold your view have to change the Scriptures to fit their beliefs. They have to add the word body to the word dead in order to make it fit their preconceived idea of a disembodied afterlife.

Jesus was pretty clear, the dead will live.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, the dead Will live.

Again -- where Will they live since they are physically dead. You're trying to differentiate between a dead body and the dead. That which Is being talked about is the Soul. The soul of the dead person Does live on.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, the dead Will live.

Again -- where Will they live since they are physically dead. You're trying to differentiate between a dead body and the dead. That which Is being talked about is the Soul. The soul of the dead person Does live on.

They'll live on the earth when they're resurrected. It's not me that's making the distinction. The dead and the dead body are the same. They're dead.

You keep saying the soul lives on. You're making it some sort of mystical disembodied being. The Bible is clear on what a soul is.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice what the passage says. God formed the man from the dust of the earth. So, Adam's body was dust. Notice what happened when God breathed HIS breath into the man. The man transformed and became a living soul. So, the man, the body of Adam, that body became a soul. This shows unequivocally that a living body is a soul. It doesn't say that a soul is put into a body. It says that the man, the body became a living soul. A living breathing person IS a soul. It's not some disembodied consciousness that simply inhabits a body until that body dies. IT IS that body

 

[KingJ]

The title itself would tell a person a Lot -- lake of fire and brimstone. How would You picture a lake that is burning. Haven't you seen pictures of crash sites in the water where oil has caught fire and the result is portions of water that are burning. or a vast area of forest fire except that grass or shrubs are burning close to the ground. Brimstone would be like a bbq pit with all the hot coals to walk around on or in.

Revelation 20:11 - 15, vs 12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another books was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. vs 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. vs 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. vs 15 And any one not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

And then look at Luke 16 -- which I'm sure you're familiar with. The term 'Hades' is used here. vs 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 "Then he cried and said .....send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." vs 26 "......there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
vs 29 'they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. ....if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

And then there is Matthew 8:12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness, There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then look at Matthew 25:30 "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And there will be the question of what 'unprofitable' would mean.

Thanks for this Sue.

I agree with what you say about the lake of fire. It is not called lake of fire because it is a pleasant place.

As for weeping and gnashing of teeth we know this is from a type of separation anxiety Luke 13:28.

Rich man, is a valid reference. If there is fire in Hades, there will definitely be fire in ''the lake of fire''.

I want you to now move on two steps further and agree with the following.

1. God does not repay evil with evil as He is not evil 1 John 1:5. He has no evil in Him whatsoever. As such, all thoughts of cruel torture in the ''lake of fire'' need to be removed. Being burnt alive as we know it, is cruel torture.

2. None of these verses you quoted point to cruel torture. They point to the reality of a state away from God. Darkness is a place with no light. A place of evil as John 3:19 links evil with darkness. Fire is not a metaphor but it is not fire as we know it. If it was the rich man would be asking for truck loads of water and would not be able to hold a conversation.

It is important that we teach hell be a terrible place. It is more important that we not taint God has having a dark side with regards to His punishment of the wicked in hell.

Dante's inferno and many un-scriptural books espouse that God is cruel, evil and vindictive. Basically, they espouse that God would punish the wicked as the devil would his enemy. IE, they imply God is a devil. As Christians who know scripture, we cannot support any un-scriptural depiction of hell. Even if it is seemingly logical to infer burn with fire = burn with fire.

God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

God would NEVER repay evil with evil. Fact.

 

[KingJ]

That's more misinformation that is taught. The Scriptures don't teach that people go to Heaven

Where God is, is heaven.

We will always be with God as we will reign with Him 2 Tim 2:12.

As such, you are merely causing the reader to assume less of God. You have some food for thought on annihilation but in my opinion are out of line with this ''we will not be in heaven'' nonsense.

God died for us. Gave His life for us. But.....we......will.....not be welcome in heaven. This is something the devil will push. Think about that Butch.

 

[Hekuran]

@Butch5 is correct that that scriptures don't teach that our destiny is heaven.

I'd like to challenge the assumption that the promise of a new age - our mortal bodies resurrected and glorified, the whole of creation released from bondage and decay, and life in perfect harmony with each other and with God - is a less glorious hope than the expectation of life in heaven.

For me, the hope of Jesus coming from heaven to earth to right all wrongs is a vastly greater expectation.

 

[Sue D.]

Thanks for this Sue.

I agree with what you say about the lake of fire. It is not called lake of fire because it is a pleasant place.

As for weeping and gnashing of teeth we know this is from a type of separation anxiety Luke 13:28.

Rich man, is a valid reference. If there is fire in Hades, there will definitely be fire in ''the lake of fire''.

I want you to now move on two steps further and agree with the following.

1. God does not repay evil with evil as He is not evil 1 John 1:5. He has no evil in Him whatsoever. As such, all thoughts of cruel torture in the ''lake of fire'' need to be removed. Being burnt alive as we know it, is cruel torture.

2. None of these verses you quoted point to cruel torture. They point to the reality of a state away from God. Darkness is a place with no light. A place of evil as John 3:19 links evil with darkness. Fire is not a metaphor but it is not fire as we know it. If it was the rich man would be asking for truck loads of water and would not be able to hold a conversation.

It is important that we teach hell be a terrible place. It is more important that we not taint God has having a dark side with regards to His punishment of the wicked in hell.

Dante's inferno and many un-scriptural books espouse that God is cruel, evil and vindictive. Basically, they espouse that God would punish the wicked as the devil would his enemy. IE, they imply God is a devil. As Christians who know scripture, we cannot support any un-scriptural depiction of hell. Even if it is seemingly logical to infer burn with fire = burn with fire.

God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

God would NEVER repay evil with evil. Fact.

Luke 13:28 -- 'separation anxiety' -- well -- that Could be one way of describing the reason For the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" -- to be thrown out of the presence of God. You're suggesting that this one reference To that is being misapplied. So that there Won't be that reaction to waking up in hell?! Well -- there Are those who apply it To being in hell for a reason. Probably due to a better understanding of that passage.

You've landed on the point that being in a scenario that burning in a lake of fire and brimstone would be cruel torture. Scripture / God's Word tells us that That environment is Only Meant for three 'people' ie satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone else has been given The way to be in New Jerusalem in God's presence in the perfect environment that He's preparing for us in the future. So -- if you consider that environment to be cruel torture - fine. those three people deserve it. And , actually, we All deserve that existence for eternity -- because we are All sinners and fall short of the glory of God. The penalty for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord.

So -- all a person Needs to do is accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and 'we' will become a son/ daughter of God through the blood of Jesus Chris.

The scenario of the rich man and Lazarus -- YOU figure that he isn't Really in that bad a situation Simply because he's not asking for a Lot more water. He IS asking for Mercy for that bit of water on his tongue Probably because he knows he doesn't even Deserve That much. And he Will be feeling That way for Ever.

And if he hadn't been having That conversation -- we would not have that information In Scripture. God IS letting 'us' know how bad it will be in hell while the sinner is waiting For the lake of fire and brimstone.

God is BOTH loving And His punishment is Perfect. And we Need to be Very appreciative of His Mercy.

I've never read Dante's inferno -- I've Heard about it. God Does punish the wicked -- they Are evil. The only enemy that satan has is God And That is because satan / Lucifer was Not satisfied with how God created him. He was created as God's right-hand man -- but That wasn't good enough for Lucifer -- he wanted Everything. He wanted to be God, himself. He had a rebellious attitude and got a lot of other angels to be on his side -- his rebellious nature got him and his followers thrown out of heaven. He's been the greatest liar / deceiver in this world.

That which 'we' need to accept is the Scriptural reality of what hell now is for the dead non-believers and how horrible the Future lake of fire and brimstone Will be and that it Will last for eternity.

And, you're right -- the fire we read about in God's Word is Not like the fire we know of Now. Fire Now has to have fuel to continue burning -- it will eventually burn itself out. Not so in eternity -- eternal fire is exactly That -- eternal -- never going out. And in a fire 'here' a person dies of smoke inhalation before they feel the actual fire. In eternity -- whatever we end up breathing Will hurt our lungs and eyes. And That will last for eternity, too.

We all have the personal choice to make.

Those who Don't accept God's Way to be Out -- will find themselves In. We have Plenty of warning -- it's Our decision to acknowledge and accept our condition and God's remedy For it.

We have God's light in this world -- in hell -- there will be No light -- God's Absence. Total darkness -- maybe we Will be able to hear everything happening around us. But we won't be able to See anything.

 

[Sue D.]

It is a height of Christian stupidity to say we, who God died for will not be welcome into His home / heaven. Then it is a height of stupidity to think we will be earthbound for a day, let alone an eternity.

This is one literal reading that exposes a complete lack of understanding about God and Christianity.

The Only reason anyone will be ''welcome' into God's kingdom is because we have acknowledged our personal need For salvation and accept God's Way and thanked Him for making our salvation possible.

The book of Revelation tells us exactly what the New Jerusalem will be like. The very last chapter. It will be huge and beautiful. And God will be there with us / born-again believers that is.

 

[Butch5]

Where God is, is heaven.

We will always be with God as we will reign with Him 2 Tim 2:12.

As such, you are merely causing the reader to assume less of God. You have some food for thought on annihilation but in my opinion are out of line with this ''we will not be in heaven'' nonsense.

God died for us. Gave His life for us. But.....we......will.....not be welcome in heaven. This is something the devil will push. Think about that Butch.

Actually, 2 Tim 2:12 is referring to Jesus. However, that reining will be on earth. You have a right to your opinion. That's what your belief is based on. There is "nothing" in Scripture that teaches that people go to Heaven. I'm sure you would have posted something if there was. Instead you posted a passage about Jesus reigning on earth.

If man's goal was to go to Heaven, how come Jesus nor the apostles taught such? One would expect that if this was the ultimate goal and what God was telling us we'd find it somewhere stated in the Bible at least once. Surely we wouldn't have to infer it. After all, when Paul wants to teach that a man is saved through faith, be doesn't beat around the bush. He makes it crystal clear. Yet we have no teaching at all that believers go to heaven when they die. Those who propose this idea can only offer inferences they've drawn from Scripture,

A few hundred years before the New Testament was a Greek Philosopher named Plato. Plato taught that man was really a soul trapped in a body and that the goal of man was to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god. This was a popular belief among the Greeks in New Testament times. Today we have millions of Christians who believe that man's goal is to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to the ultimate God. Coincidence? I don't think so. Did Plato bring the Gospel before Jesus? I don't think so. Towards the end of the apostles ministries Gnosticism was become a big problem and John wrote to reject it. Gnosticism is a blending of Christian doctrine with Greek Philosophy. The Gnostics believed that man was an immaterial being, and that the body was a prison of the soul. They believed it was the goal of man to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god. Are you starting to see a pattern here?

You spoke of something the devil would push? Maybe he'd push Greek philosophy to lead Christians away from their true hope, the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

It is a height of Christian stupidity to say we, who God died for will not be welcome into His home / heaven. Then it is a height of stupidity to think we will be earthbound for a day, let alone an eternity.

This is one literal reading that exposes a complete lack of understanding about God and Christianity.

I would be careful to say a doctrine is the height of Christian stupidity. You may realize one day that you hold such a doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,
I am glad that you and I have the truth of the heaven business as I have years of experience of being hated for stating the truth about no-one going to heaven when they die!
So many so-called Christians prefer the Babylonian heaven nonsense no matter what scripture we quote!
I've just been banned from another forum for daring to say that Catholcis are pagans who worship Ishtar!
Anyway glad to meet another Christian among all the pagans.

I'm glad you've come to the correct understanding. I do hesitate to call anyone a heretic as I've also held wrong doctrines. I simply believed what I was taught by pastors. I no longer do that. I've found that most of them are also wrong.

 

[Sue D.]

In the grave.

Where are their souls?