Power in Hell?
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Greetings brothers and sisters
This thread has been moderated due to the content in places being abusive.
As Christians we should not be calling each other trolls, stupid, idiots etc
Please use the report button if you see anything objectionable.
Please post in peace.....forebearing one another in love.
Use Biblical verses to back what you say
The thread is now opened.
This thread has been moderated due to the content in places being abusive.
As Christians we should not be calling each other trolls, stupid, idiots etc
Please use the report button if you see anything objectionable.
Please post in peace.....forebearing one another in love.
Use Biblical verses to back what you say
The thread is now opened.
KingJ
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Not to nitpick, but calling someone a troll should not be seen as offensive.
I can troll someone, they can troll me. Some people go in circles, some are evasive and then some troll discussions.
Then, nobody was called an 'idiot'. I said this 'idiocy'.
If we see a teaching that is clearly un-scriptural and void of all Christian common sense, I don't see the wrong in calling it idiocy or foolishness.
There is a heretical implication in saying ''we will not be in heaven'' that two here are pushing. They are reading a few scriptures literally and making controversial / un-Christian statements that provoke a response. Provoke words like ''idiocy, foolishness'' etc.
Read their posts carefully. They ignore the fact that where God is, is heaven. They continue to push this notion that we will not be in heaven. As if heaven is rocks and clouds.
It is subtle, but imagine a young Christian hearing such a teaching.
In my church we had a few teaching this nonsense that were harshly corrected and rebuked as all heresies should be. It is wicked to make something of a half truth. There are many things the bible does not say. Many things should be a given.
This teaching is devilish in that is draws a line between a Christian and God. A line that should not be drawn, at all!! God gave His life for us. Wherever He is, we will be.
Then to think He will restrict us to earth for all eternity when we in our current sinful state are not, is a height of madness surely. Unless the earth is flat and Muhammad chopped the moon in two, so we actually did not land there.
The devil quoted a little truth to Jesus in Matt 4, that is all these two here are doing. They are not using logical reasoning, lateral thought or discerning the effect / consequences of their controversial statements.
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Butch5
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Again, show me a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die. If what I'm saying is heretical then you should have absolutely no trouble refuting it. It's not trolling to ask you to present Scripture to support your claim. I've shown you where Paul said of those who had died in Christ, if there is no resurrection, they had perished.
Will believers be with Jesus? Yes, in the resurrection, not as some disembodied being when they die. If this is heresy please show me where I'm wrong. Post the Scriptures.
KingJ
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If you think a Being who gave His life for us will stop us from visiting the rocks and clouds where He previously resided, I have no words for you. I can just pray.
What IS devilish about your belief is that the statement '''we will not go to heaven'' is left in peoples minds. You two are certainly not batting for Jesus.
Butch5
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"If you think" is only evidence of your opinion. It seem obvious that you don't have anything to support your claim since you've not posted anything. You seem to have a different definition of Heaven, rocks and clouds? Maybe you could explain?
As I said in another post, Greek philosophy taught that man was a soul whose goal was to ascend into the heavens. The Gnostics taught that man was a soul whose goal was to ascend into the heavens. Many modern Christian's believe man is a soul whose goal is to ascend into the heavens. The Bible teaches no such thing.
Rockerduck
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I don't know if heaven and paradise are the same or not, but I'll take either one over hell. The most important thing for you is to have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior and know you will be with Jesus in the end; in paradise.
Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Butch5
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Translators have transliterated the word Greek paradeisos, paradise, rather than translate it. It means a garden. In the Greek Old Testament we find the paradise of Eden. In the book of Revelation Jesus speaks of allowing people to eat from the Tree of Life which He says is in the Paradise, or garden, of God. We know the Tree of Life is in the paradise of Eden. It seems then that this is what Jesus was referring to when He told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise, or the Garden.
However, I would submit that the translators have wrongly punctuated that verse. In the original text there is no punctuation. The translators have added it where they think it should be, for the English reader. They place the comma before the word today. However, the comma could also be placed after the word today. Either would be correct grammatically in the Greek. Either one could be correct. However, placing the comma before the word today creates issues with other passages of Scripture. Thus I would submit that the comma should be placed after the word today.
Rockerduck
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Butch5,
In Luke 23:23 Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he and Jesus will be together that same day, passing from one life to the next; in paradise, a garden, or whatever. Death has been defeated.
2 Timothy 1:10- But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1 Corinthians 15:56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
In Luke 23:23 Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he and Jesus will be together that same day, passing from one life to the next; in paradise, a garden, or whatever. Death has been defeated.
2 Timothy 1:10- But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1 Corinthians 15:56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Butch5
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The point of my last post was to show that Jesus wasn't telling the thief they would be in paradise that day. The translators put the comma there, it isn't in the original. It can also be read, truly, truly, I said to you today, you will be with Me in paradise. We know this is the correct reading because Jesus wasn't in Paradise that day.
Rockerduck
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Hi Butch5,
Ancient Greek writings at the the time of translations had no punctuation marks at all. So the translators had to add them. They prayerfully did too. So you must accept by faith alone if the comma is in the right place. However in 2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
I believe the comma is in the proper place.
Ancient Greek writings at the the time of translations had no punctuation marks at all. So the translators had to add them. They prayerfully did too. So you must accept by faith alone if the comma is in the right place. However in 2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
I believe the comma is in the proper place.
Butch5
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No, I don't have to accept what translators write. They're just as susceptible to error as anyone else. This passage is a good example. It has Jesus being in paradise that day when Scripture tells us that He was in the tomb for three days. There are quite a few things translators have gotten wrong. Regarding 2 Tim. Scripture is God breathed, the comma wasn't.
So --you are saying that you have more credability than the translators?!
The Scriptures do say that Jesus Christ was buried and that He rose again bodily on the 3rd day.
We Do know that He went to Paradise and brought those back up with Him.
And yes He was put in a tomb and His grave wrappings were empty when the 1st people were at His opened tomb.
The Scriptures do say that Jesus Christ was buried and that He rose again bodily on the 3rd day.
We Do know that He went to Paradise and brought those back up with Him.
And yes He was put in a tomb and His grave wrappings were empty when the 1st people were at His opened tomb.
Butch5
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I'm not sure where you saw that. However, do you know the credibility of the translators of the version you read? Do you know thoer credentials? Do you know where they went to seminary? I doubt it. Do you even know their names without looking to see? You probably know more about what I believe than you do about those translators. So the credibility argument is really not valid. That translators makes mistakes is easily seen. They're all taught the theology of the seminary they attend. If they attend a Baptist seminary they learn Baptiat theology If they attend a Presbyterian seminary they learn Presbyterian theology. We know all of the denominations have teachings that are wrong. So, it's no hard to see that translators make errors. Compare a Catholic translation to a Protestant one.
Know we don't know th as t Jesus went to a garden when He died. We know He was laid in the tomb. He rose on the 3rd day. That means on day one and two Je wasim the tomb. Also, the Bible doesn't teach that dead people go to the garden. Well, I guess maybe if one considers a cemetary a garden.
Butch5
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Hi Br Bear,
I would submit he was referring to the Septuagint. The Greek Old Testamemt.
As Jesus referred
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.
John 5:39
Bless you ....><>
Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:25-27
Luke 24:25-27
Regarding the thief see Psalm 49:14
Was Jesus perhaps letting him know that today He has (will) become his Shepherd as death is swallowed up in victory?
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 25:8
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:18
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25
Was Jesus perhaps letting him know that today He has (will) become his Shepherd as death is swallowed up in victory?
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 25:8
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:18
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25
