Power in Hell?

[Sue D.]

And Maybe You are missing the point Of the parable. They go hand in hand. A person dies Physically but their soul lives On and is conscious of their new surroundings.

When YOU die -- your physical body will begin to decay -- but your Spirit will be very aware of it's new surroundings -- either being in hell waiting for the Lake of fire and brimstone OR of being with Jesus Christ.

For the born-again believer -- the person will receive a new 'glorified' body. Just as Jesus was walking around After His bodily resurrection in His body. What ever has been wrong with our bodies Now, will be healed in our Glorified body.

 

[Butch5]

And Maybe You are missing the point Of the parable. They go hand in hand. A person dies Physically but their soul lives On and is conscious of their new surroundings.

When YOU die -- your physical body will begin to decay -- but your Spirit will be very aware of it's new surroundings -- either being in hell waiting for the Lake of fire and brimstone OR of being with Jesus Christ.

For the born-again believer -- the person will receive a new 'glorified' body. Just as Jesus was walking around After His bodily resurrection in His body. What ever has been wrong with our bodies Now, will be healed in our Glorified body.

I would submit that you're missing the point. Jesus isn't teaching about an afterlife. There's nothing in the context that would indicate that this parable is about an afterlife. You keep talking about people living on after death. That's Greek mythology. The Bible doesn't teach that. The uses parables, stories, and allegories to illustrate certain principles. Lazarus and the Ruch Man are just that. It's not about dead pe OP please who are alive.

They're called the dead for a reason, they're dead. They are not alive, living people are called the living, not the dead. Any interpretation that has dead people literally alive is incorrect.

 

[Sue D.]

Except that it IS. And that He Is.

I'm not going to continue to go 'round and round in circles'.

 

[Samson2020]

Samson2020

Add bookmark Yesterday at 11:58 AM #43

1Co 15:21 "For since by man(Adam) came death, by man(Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead."
1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."
1Co 15:23 "But EVERY MAN in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
There is a purpose that what happens between these 2 verses is left out. Consider a time frame of several thousand years right here.
1Co 15:24 "Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
1Co 15:25 "For he must reign, until he hath put ALL ENEMIES under his feet." All enemies are not put under his feet until after at a minimum the 1000 yr reign as Satan is released after this time for the gathering at the battle of Armageddon.
1Co 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Why? (Because ALL have been MADE ALIVE as this DEATH THAT MAN (ADAM) BROUGHT IN AND MAN (JESUS) REVERSED, has been FINISHED!!!) If all are made alive in Christ who then is left to die?


Does anybody actually believe that what Adam did in disobeying God carries more weight than what Jesus' sacrifice bought the entire human race? Such that the majority of mankind burn in hell forever because Jesus' sacrifice was not enough to pay for their sin of unbelief?

Is it not written that "HE TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD?" What sin is left then to cause condemnation of those that were not chosen by God to a part of the first fruits?

Anyone want to reconcile these verses with their concept of hell and it being an eternal torment considering that the spirit of every human ever born came out from God.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath CHOSEN US IN HIM before the foundation of the world......'
Psalms 82:6 " I have said ye are gods; and ALL OF YOU ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH." King David and Paul saying the same thing about 1,100 yrs apart

Consider for one minute that the lake of fire is nothing more than a repeat of what you now see on earth.
Consider also that every thing that is thrown into the Lake of fire exists as it does now including death and the grave (i.e. the SECOND DEATH). If people are going to need a grave then they will have to die. Where is the eternal torment in dying? Why do we need the Beast(Government), the False Prophet(false religion) Unless people will run those institutions. Why Satan? Unless there is a continuation of the Mystery of Iniquity that we are all partakers of today which is what causes our maturing unto near perfection.

Who makes himself responsible for drawing ALL men unto his Son Jesus? Is it not God?
Scripture states that ALL MEN are justified unto life and that ALL are to be made ALIVE in Christ.
How is this to be reconciled with the majority in an eternal hell, where God is apparently roasting his own children according to todays view?

Or is it possible that once every eye hath seen and every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus is Lord, and they see the great riches that God hath
bestowed upon the vessels fitted to mercy (the first fruits) that there will be a serious weeping and gnashing of teeth simply because they were not CHOSEN to be part of the first group, they missed out according to Gods wisdom.

God decides the order in which EVERY MAN comes to LIFE through the Son and EVERY MAN will come to LIFE when HE is done. Otherwise DEATH is not destroyed!!!!!

Quit reading the verses as though they are physical as Jesus already told us that his words were SPIRIT AND LIFE. NOT DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

Lastly I would ask one little question: When Hell is no longer an enemy, where are all the souls that are supposed to be there?

Posted so that you might see the BIG PICTURE and not examine tree bark and miss the forest.

 

[Butch5]

Except that it IS. And that He Is.

I'm not going to continue to go 'round and round in circles'.

Which is why I dont know why you responded to my post.

The Disciples asked Jesus why He spoke to the Jews in Parables. He said that it was so that seeing they would see and not understand and hearing they hear and not understand. So, the purpose was to say something to them and yet they would not understand it. Millions of Christian's read Lazarus and the Rich Man and think its about life after death. That's how they "UNDERSTAND" it. Don't you think the Pharisees would understand it that way too? If they did understand it that way then that is "NOT" what it means. Thae whole purpose was to tell them something in a way that they would hear His words but not understand what He was saying to them.

 

[Brother Paul]

Quick question.

Based on your understanding of the Bible will there be anyone ruling in hell or will it be a place of torment for all who
go there?

I ask because I have listened to many near death experiences or visions of hell online and in many accounts the individuals
share about being tortured by demons in hell, as if the demons are in hell ruling and getting pleasure out of torturing humans.

However I thought that the demons in hell are sent there for suffering not to be exercising power and getting pleasure from
whatever acts they may be able to do.

Or perhaps it is like prison here on earth. You have some prisoners who abuse other prisoners but all the prisoners are suffering.

What are your thoughts? Thanks.

Well if Luke 16's rich-man experience is any indicator, then for all who have rejected the Lordship of God and deciding good and evil for themselves (as a lord or a god unto themselves - Genesis 3:5) I believe it is a place where each person sent there is lord of a kingdom of one....all that is God ot that which He would have provided is absent. You wanted nothing to do with Him while here so in effect you are getting your own way (like Satan and his minions)/ There is only the darkest of darkness because light was God's idea (you wanted nothing to do with Him or the knowledge of Him), there is NO fellowship because that was His idea, no touch because living forms were his idea, no order to calm the forces of Chaos because He brought forth order, and so on....
such is your conscious experience for eternity and worst of all you know YOU made the choice to have such a reality

 

[Rockerduck]

Parables are stories to illustrate a truth. Jesus never lied about anything or made up a tale. The rich man and Lazarus is an illustration of the truth of after life.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 

[KingJ]

In @Butch5 's defense, I can see why he interprets scripture as he does. God does not say someone is semi-dead. He says they are '''dead'''.

As such, it is a case of two very different views and only two things really matter in this instance. 1. Not to insult someone with the opposing view. They are nowhere near a heretic.
2. To have a sound scriptural justification for your position Rom 14:5.

 

[KingJ]

Annihilating a person sold out to wickedness can be seen as an act of mercy. Take Saddam Hussein as an example. He had five underground torture chambers where many were treated with cruelty. A fair punishment would be eye for an eye. Torture him as he tortured others. A merciful punishment would be simply a lethal injection. The only people that would oppose a quick death would be those who are also wicked and want to see him tortured. Torture is an act that only a wicked person can carry out. There is nobody on this planet that can say they are good if they torture in anyway shape or form.

As such, @Butch5 's position is miles better then anyone claiming that God will torture the wicked in hell. His position supports ''the message we have heard from the beginning, that God is light with no darkness in Him at all'' 1 John 1:5.

I believe the only argument that can be raised against @Butch5 's annihilation belief is that God is 'one step better'. IE He is not only merciful, just and fair. He is also good Psalm 136:1. A good God will honor free will and let those who rejected Him live with their decision to do so. This will ensure that those who accepted Him not feel they are ''lucky'' or ''specially selected'' or have a belief that God will ''destroy'' us if we ever step out of line with Him. We will live for eternity, imagine having that fear.

The truth is that God is exceedingly good. He is the definition of good, love, merciful, just, fair, sweet, kind, caring. If there is any good thought we have, it is from Him. We will praise and worship God for all eternity because in heaven we will better grasp how good He is. As such I believe He makes space in His universe for those that rejected Him and chooses to ''in a sense'' still love them for all eternity.

There is not a single wicked bone in God. NONE of us can grasp this about God. As only God is perfectly good Mark 10:18. This does not mean He is good by default as He '''is God''. No, it means He actually is the definition of what is good. If we have a scale of 1 being worst case scenario and 10 being best, God is always 10. IE If a wicked person could pick their judge and executioner, they would always pick God.

 

[Sue D.]

"we" are not at liberty to decide what eternity should or should not be like.

Scripture // God's Word tells us plainly what hell is like Now and what eternity in the lake of fire and brimstone Will be like. God has told all of mankind exactly how to be able to be in the future heaven/ New Jerusalem and how to stay out of the future lake of fire and brimstone.

Annihiliation is not Biblical. No basis for it except our wishful thinking.

God is holy and righteous and has provided the one and only way of salvation From hell -- hell being the holding place for non-believers presently when they die.

Nothing in our goodness is going to get us To heaven.

And, yes, He does give us the freedom of choice. He won't 'force' anyone to accept His gift of salvation. And God does know who will and who won't accept His gift of salvation.

And, yes, there is now and will also be in the future a 'special' place for those who reject His salvation. It's presently called 'hell' and will be the future lake of fire and brimstone. There is nothing in Scripture that says that God will always love everyone through out eternity.

God's Love has been displayed by having His Son, Jesus Christ come into this world to die on the cross for our sins and then be buried and then be raised bodily from the dead on the 3rd day. The shedding of His blood on the cross cleanses us from all sin.

God IS our judge and has told us what the punishment will be. As well as the way to avoid the future eternity in hell and then the lake of fire and brimstone.

 

[KingJ]

"we" are not at liberty to decide what eternity should or should not be like.

Scripture // God's Word tells us plainly what hell is like Now and what eternity in the lake of fire and brimstone Will be like. God has told all of mankind exactly how to be able to be in the future heaven/ New Jerusalem and how to stay out of the future lake of fire and brimstone.

Annihiliation is not Biblical. No basis for it except our wishful thinking.

God is holy and righteous and has provided the one and only way of salvation From hell -- hell being the holding place for non-believers presently when they die.

Nothing in our goodness is going to get us To heaven.

And, yes, He does give us the freedom of choice. He won't 'force' anyone to accept His gift of salvation. And God does know who will and who won't accept His gift of salvation.

And, yes, there is now and will also be in the future a 'special' place for those who reject His salvation. It's presently called 'hell' and will be the future lake of fire and brimstone. There is nothing in Scripture that says that God will always love everyone through out eternity.

God's Love has been displayed by having His Son, Jesus Christ come into this world to die on the cross for our sins and then be buried and then be raised bodily from the dead on the 3rd day. The shedding of His blood on the cross cleanses us from all sin.

God IS our judge and has told us what the punishment will be. As well as the way to avoid the future eternity in hell and then the lake of fire and brimstone.

Sue, not that I disagree with you, but please could you use the quoting function and post scriptures to support your statements. I am after those specifically that you say describe hell.

 

[Butch5]

The problem with the Hell descriptions is that people conflate passages and add mythology. There are a lot of assumptions made based on presuppositions.

 

[Rockerduck]

I'll be in heaven with Jesus and I'm not concerned with hell.

 

[Sue D.]

@Rockerduck -- good -- as long as that means that you've followed through with God's only way for you To be with Jesus.

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes Sue D., I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and have no fear of death.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue, not that I disagree with you, but please could you use the quoting function and post scriptures to support your statements. I am after those specifically that you say describe hell.

The title itself would tell a person a Lot -- lake of fire and brimstone. How would You picture a lake that is burning. Haven't you seen pictures of crash sites in the water where oil has caught fire and the result is portions of water that are burning. or a vast area of forest fire except that grass or shrubs are burning close to the ground. Brimstone would be like a bbq pit with all the hot coals to walk around on or in.

Revelation 20:11 - 15, vs 12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another books was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. vs 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. vs 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. vs 15 And any one not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

And then look at Luke 16 -- which I'm sure you're familiar with. The term 'Hades' is used here. vs 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 "Then he cried and said .....send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." vs 26 "......there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
vs 29 'they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. ....if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

And then there is Matthew 8:12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness, There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then look at Matthew 25:30 "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And there will be the question of what 'unprofitable' would mean.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes Sue D., I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and have no fear of death.

Okay -- will pursue just a bit further -- on what basis do you say that you are filled with the Holy Spirit? Is it because at the moment you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior that the Holy Spirit immediate came to indwell you? And at That point you had an inner peace that had never been there before?

 

[Butch5]

I'll be in heaven with Jesus and I'm not concerned with hell.

That's more misinformation that is taught. The Scriptures don't teach that people go to Heaven

 

[Sue D.]

Look at Acts 1 : 10 -11 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. vs 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." vs 12 is also interesting -- Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey."

Looking at Zechariah 14:4 and surrounding verses. His feet will again stand on the Mt. of Olives. / Olivet.

Scripture Does say that 'absent from the body is presence with the Lord'. He is in heaven -- that is where He ascended up to. John 14:1-6 "I go to prepare a place for you, etc, etc. "

In the End -- the New Jerusalem will be brought down to earth by God, Himself. And That will be the beginning of 'heaven on earth' and That is described in Revelation 21.

 

[Butch5]

Look at Acts 1 : 10 -11 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. vs 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." vs 12 is also interesting -- Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey."

Looking at Zechariah 14:4 and surrounding verses. His feet will again stand on the Mt. of Olives. / Olivet.

Scripture Does say that 'absent from the body is presence with the Lord'. He is in heaven -- that is where He ascended up to. John 14:1-6 "I go to prepare a place for you, etc, etc. "

In the End -- the New Jerusalem will be brought down to earth by God, Himself. And That will be the beginning of 'heaven on earth' and That is described in Revelation 21.

Jesus coming back doesn't show that people go to Heaven. Also, Paul didn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Read it closely.