• Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Is it faith alone??

Member
wilful sin is to sin wilfully. if you eat bread you may not sin willfully because you want only to eat but you may eat too much so that you commit gluttony. but you didn't sin willfully.
your intention was only to eat and not sin.

then wilful sin would be to do only sin deliberately
 
Last edited:
Member
Circles again. The post is about faith alone vs. fruits of repentance. To which I have quoted:
1.) the verse after the LORD's prayer
2.) the parable of a man forgiven a great debt but would not forgive.
3.) the fact that Christ gave a commandment, commission, example, the promise of the Spirit.
4.) many parables phrase-ology of bearing fruits or doing works and labors
5.) the entire reason for writing the epistles, in which are countless commands and warnings not to fall away
6.) The fact that we are saved by God's Works of redemption manifested as an example to the church
7.) The fact that Adam was born in a relationship to God, called a son to God, and "lost his salvation" through disobedience.
8.) The Jews were called the chosen of the LORD, also called His firstborn son, and yet are not saved by genealogy.
9.) Abraham though imputed as righteous for his faith, scripture says this was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Isaac.
10.) The illustration of branches in which the Jews fell away for unbelief as a warning to Christians to "abide in Christ"
11.) Many who "call(ed) upon the name of Lord" are rebuked and told He never knew them.
12.) To love not one's brother is to be in darkness; and the LORD takes offence to our wrongs one against another, for "inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren..."

and on and on and on. For what purpose do we remain on this earth after accepting Jesus Christ, but to minister this gospel: simultaneously fulfilling the great commission, Christ's example, His commandment to love, and be led by the Holy Spirit (which in itself is the fulfillment of the comandment because God is love, thus to let the Spirit have free reign of you, counting yourself to be "bought with a price", is to fulfill the commandment of love, by which Christ's true disciples shall be known)?

If the Bible is divinely inspired and "scripture cannot be broken" why are these things written? What is the "Law to Christ" to which Paul considered himself bound? What is the "Law of Faith" by which boasting is excluded?
 
Last edited:
Member
yes caprice but that is only your opinion. your interpreation of the scripture and the purpose of it could be very well yours alone. and holds necessarily no water.
 
Member
Okay, Peace Seeker, do you then keep all of His commandments BECAUSE you are saved? Out of love ( isn't that what you are saying? )?

No, I do not keep all of His commandments, if anyone says he sins not he is a liar (1 John 1:8). Do YOU keep all the commandments? If not, just curious why you would ask anyone else else if they do. I would say I strive to keep His commandments, out of love for God, but not because I would tie that in any way to the free-grace salvation I have been given. But please tell me what keeping the commandments has to do with salvation so I can understand where you're going with this. Do you believe I need to keep them all in order to continue to be saved?

And yet he still said pick up your cross and following me, right? If the burden of the cross was his to bear alone, why would he say this?

What does picking up your cross and following God have to do with salvation? Salvation is either a gift or it isn't, and I see nowhere in the bible where God says that His free gift of eternal life is predicated upon me doing things for Him. God, in the unsearchable riches of His grace, mercy and loving-kindness towards we stiff-necked and rebellious people, gave freely of Himself, no charge, no strings. If not, tell me what strings He attached to grace, and how salvation is not really by grace through faith, not of ourselves, the gift of God lest anyone should boast.

As to why we pick up our cross, it is because we are soldiers for Christ, we are His ambassadors, we are His body and as His students we follow the Teacher, as His sheep we follow the Good Shepherd..... We do lots of things to follow His example, or because He asked us to do it. But it seems like you are implying that taking up our cross = salvation, and not taking it up = no salvation? If not, then please elucidate a bit more so I don't waste anyone's time answering what I think it is you're asking when I'm not.

Which works do you think I am negligent in doing that grace doesn't cover? Are there any works that will bring forgiveness of sins? This thread is about grace and works, so please tell me how you think taking up one's cross pertains to salvation.

You cannot earn grace no matter how much cross-carrying you may or may not be doing, right? Or do you disagree with that statement? When we get to heaven the Lord will say, "well done faithful servant" on the basis of His shed blood, His atoning sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, only. It will not be on the basis of anything we do down here, it is all about Jesus, not us. Do you believe Christ paid your debts in full, and by doing so purchased for you forgiveness of sins and eternal life, or do you need to help Him out with that?

Is God holding all of our salvation in trust
?

And yet He still requires that people "believe" before they receive salvation, right? Did you or did you not play a part in accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior when you were "saved", Peace Seeker? Was it your choice to believe, or was there some other force at work there?

You know what, I sense these are loaded questions, because if I say I played a part in accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you will say I did a "work", therefore that is somehow proof that works are required to be saved. If I say that nothing good comes from me, and that I could never have come to Christ unless He gave me a little bit of faith to enable me to come to Him, then you will say I am a Calvinist? Even though I have never read any of His works.

So here's my answers : No man comes to God unless he is drawn to Him. John 6:44. Our sin nature was at enmity with God and we could never free ourselves from our separation from Him, from our sinful state, so He did it for us, reconciling us to Him, etc. So, even though I responded to His call, as we all did, to me that doesn't mean I had something to do with my salvation. If I want to give my wife a gift and she accepts it, it doesn't mean she had anything to do with it. So to sum up your last question, yes, I believe there was some other force at work there, as you put it. Can you accept Christ without the Holy Spirit leading you to Him?

We feel the same way about you, if you would just listen and make even a little effort to understand. We are just as sure about our belief as you are yours. We aren't doing it just to annoy you, and I know that you are not intending to annoy us.

I am glad that we can agree on that! Are you annoyed?, coz I'm not.

I think everyone just gets a little too caught up trying to teach what they believe to be true instead of listening to what the other side has to say. It's obvious that we don't understand how one another have come to the conclusions that we have, so throwing scripture back and forth without the correct amount of explanation on the interpretation is pointless.

Have I not answered your questions? I think I have. So will you answer mine and tell me how a free gift is not free?

I have made many attempts to understand WHY people believe the things that they do, and no one seems to want to explain them. You only want to say what IS and belittle the people that don't just accept what you say as truth.

Okay, come on now, show me where anyone belittled you.

If you can't answer questions about how you came to conclusions about what you believe why should anyone believe what you say? We ask for reason behind it and you avoid the questions with answers about the things of God being beyond human reasoning and such ( which just sounds like a total cop out ) and yet somehow you understand it enough to have decided that you believe it yourselves, right?

Now I'm confused. Are you asking these things to me personally, or in general to all the people you have been corresponding with?

So, why get upset when someone questions what you believe?

Am I upset?

Asking questions before you buy into anything ( I've always been told ) is a wise thing to do. But, when it comes to God, asking questions or just being hesitant to believe what someone is saying is considered to be a lack of faith, and you are belittled for it. Prove to me that what you believe will get me saved and I will gladly accept it, but I'm not willing to just accept anything especially when it can't be reasoned out into something that makes sense and that lines up with ALL scripture. If one verse seems to contradict something then things should be examined carefully until the correct way to view things is certain. I have found that when the Bible appears to contradict itself it's actually the fault of the one that is interpreting the scripture and not the scripture itself.

Okay, here's a few verses, they have probably been posted before at some time or other, but I don't have enough time to post more.

Romans 3:20-22
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."

Romans 3:28
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Titus 3:5
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us
through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"

Acts 16:30-31
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy
house."

Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH."

John 3:16,18
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.... He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned."

Roman 4:1-5
"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them."

Paul makes it clear that we are saved by faith (grace through faith), not works. He also shows that our works are pre-ordained by God, if they were of our own doing we would have reason to boast, which we clearly have nothing to boast of.
The difference between the 2 sides on faith vs faith + works is, the one believes works are the cause of salvation, while the other believes they are simply a symptom of salvation. Or put another way, I (faith only) believe that works are a consequence of faith, whereas you believe they are a condition. So please show me from the bible where works are a condition for salvation, without going to the verses in James, because James was not saying works are a pre-requisite for salvation, he was only making a distinction between those who claim to have faith (but do not) versus those whose saving faith is shown in the good works they perform.

The tax collector in Luke 18:13-14 was justified without works :
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Lord said this man was justified before God and it had nothing to do with works, of which he had done none. He simply humbled himself by crying to God for forgiveness as his only hope, and the Lord heard him. And that is the consistent message of the New Testament. When we humble ourselves and confess our sin and fall before the pity and mercy of God, we receive it.

Anyway, that's all, I am out of time to go further. God bless!
 
Member
Opinion? What constitutes fact to you Jari? What right do we have to believe in salvation by grace except scripture told us? Then what right do we have to discount scriptures that speaks of obedience, works (of any kind), or anything to be done in response to what we claim to believe has been done on our account through Him? If I cannot quote the Word of God, or the ministry of His disciples, then would we be left to mere opinion and personal interpretation. Leaving theology as frivolous a thing as saying, "my God is better than your God because..." or in this case, "my version/doctrine of Jesus is better than yours because..."

"</SPAN>We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
 
Last edited:
Member
it's not that i don't believe bible but you posted some verses and said what it means to not obey the verses and the particular scripture posted.
that's where you made the conclusion outside the scripture.
 
Last edited:
Member
it's not that i don't believe bible but you posted some verses and said what it means to not obey the verses and the particular scripture posted.
that's where you made the conclusion outside the scripture.
 
Member
Circles again. The post is about faith alone vs. fruits of repentance. To which I have quoted:
1.) the verse after the LORD's prayer
2.) the parable of a man forgiven a great debt but would not forgive.
3.) the fact that Christ gave a commandment, commission, example, the promise of the Spirit.
4.) many parables phrase-ology of bearing fruits or doing works and labors
5.) the entire reason for writing the epistles, in which are countless commands and warnings not to fall away
6.) The fact that we are saved by God's Works of redemption manifested as an example to the church
7.) The fact that Adam was born in a relationship to God, called a son to God, and "lost his salvation" through disobedience.
8.) The Jews were called the chosen of the LORD, also called His firstborn son, and yet are not saved by genealogy.
9.) Abraham though imputed as righteous for his faith, scripture says this was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Isaac.
10.) The illustration of branches in which the Jews fell away for unbelief as a warning to Christians to "abide in Christ"
11.) Many who "call(ed) upon the name of Lord" are rebuked and told He never knew them.
12.) To love not one's brother is to be in darkness; and the LORD takes offence to our wrongs one against another, for "inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren..."

and on and on and on. For what purpose do we remain on this earth after accepting Jesus Christ, but to minister this gospel: simultaneously fulfilling the great commission, Christ's example, His commandment to love, and be led by the Holy Spirit (which in itself is the fulfillment of the comandment because God is love, thus to let the Spirit have free reign of you, counting yourself to be "bought with a price", is to fulfill the commandment of love, by which Christ's true disciples shall be known)?

If the Bible is divinely inspired and "scripture cannot be broken" why are these things written? What is the "Law to Christ" to which Paul considered himself bound? What is the "Law of Faith" by which boasting is excluded?

What conclusion is to be drawn from these and countless other verses.
1.) For what purpose is there any epistle if there is no fear of falling away or works to be done in the gospel of grace? How much of the bible is suddenly useless and without merit or purpose if this conclusion is true?
2.) Why would Christ add to statements about saving faith by parables implying works or fruits expected of His followers, if faith did all?
3.) Why the examples of the characters in the Old Testament counted as righteous by faith (in Christ not even made manifest in the flesh yet) by listing their works done BECAUSE of their faith?
4.) For what purpose are the Jews used as an "ensample" to the church if there is no fear in falling away once called or works expected to be done?
5.) If the law was to be honored which came from God, why is the commandment of Christ held in such little regard? Why the great commission or the example of Christ?

***We call God righteous and faithful to the honoring and fulfilling of His own Word, then is not the gospel of grace exemplified in,"therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.," also honored and fulfilled by example of God? In essense, God has given Christ, who after the example of the Father, has offered the fulness of Himself, that through receiving the Holy Spirit you might have fellowship with God! As this is the seed and heritage to which you are enjoined, fulfill the example by which God's grace has come upon you knowing that even He has "done unto man as He would have it done unto Himself!"***

Which of my statements is not supported by scripture? Is not this the very will of God which He enacted first upon us in grace?
 
Member
Faith alone. However, without works faith is dead.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:19-20

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:22

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
 
Member
For what purpose is there any epistle if there is no fear of falling away or works to be done in the gospel of grace? How much of the bible is suddenly useless and without merit or purpose if this conclusion is true?

wouldn't say they are useless.

Why would Christ add to statements about saving faith by parables implying works or fruits expected of His followers, if faith did all?

where did Christ tell theres works required?

Why the examples of the characters in the Old Testament counted as righteous by faith (in Christ not even made manifest in the flesh yet) by listing their works done BECAUSE of their faith?

Because of their faith.

For what purpose are the Jews used as an "ensample" to the church if there is no fear in falling away once called or works expected to be done?

jews arent ensample to church but contrary a sample of how not to be.

If the law was to be honored which came from God, why is the commandment of Christ held in such little regard? Why the great commission or the example of Christ?

Law is absolute it only judges it doesn't forgive. if christ tells to go preach the gospel to whole world how many hours in day you need to preach so that you have properly carried out this command?
it doesn't say and we all know it isn't mean to condemn us if we don't preach the gospel because it isn't Law.
 
Member
John the Baptist said, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Which seems to be related to Matt Chapter 13 and its many parables starting with the parable of the sower.

Matt 4:19 the calling of apostles to FOLLOW, to be made FISHERS of men.
Matt 5: The beattitudes, salt and light, and gracious excersise of the commandments of the law in tribute to God's grace toward us (v. 45-48). All of this talks of works in response to grace or reward in response to works done in faith.
Matt 6: True faith upon God yeilds the glory of God, "eyeservice" and "menpleasers" receive the glory of men, for "they have their reward!"
Matt 7: God acts in response to our works/judgments even as He desires that we should in response to Him.
Matt 8-9: How many times did Jesus say "according to your faith be it unto you," in some form or another? All throughout this thread it says God has/will do it all, certainly He can do all things, but He has never revealed Himself or His power to prove Himself and establish your faith, but only in response to your faith; honoring your expectation of Him as a servant seeking to please a master, as an example of true faith and service to God! Christ did not go door to door asking if they had any that needed healing and salvation...No the people pursued Him with the faith that He was able and willing to help them! The last verses in chapter 9 calls us laborers with Christ!
Matt 10: Christ enlists and equips the apostles, commanding them what to do, and warning of the persecutions they will face.

Time does not permit right now but I stand on the quotes of all my other posts in addition to these...
 
Last edited:
Member
John the Baptist said, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Which seems to be related to Matt Chapter 13 and its many parables starting with the parable of the sower.

Matt 4:19 the calling of apostles to FOLLOW, to be made FISHERS of men.
Matt 5: The beattitudes, salt and light, and gracious excersise of the commandments of the law in tribute to God's grace toward us (v. 45-48). All of this talks of works in response to grace or reward in response to works done in faith.
Matt 6: True faith upon God yeilds the glory of God, "eyeservice" and "menpleasers" receive the glory of men, for "they have their reward!"
Matt 7: God acts in response to our works/judgments even as He desires that we should in response to Him.
Matt 8-9: How many times did Jesus say "according to your faith be it unto you," in some form or another? All throughout this thread it says God has/will do it all, certainly He can do all things, but He has never revealed Himself or His power to prove Himself and establish your faith, but only in response to your faith; honoring your expectation of Him as a servant seeking to please a master, as an example of true faith and service to God! Christ did not go door to door asking if they had any that needed healing and salvation...No the people pursued Him with the faith that He was able and willing to help them! The last verses in chapter 9 calls us laborers with Christ!
Matt 10: Christ enlists and equips the apostles, commanding them what to do, and warning of the persecutions they will face.

Time does not permit right now but I stand on the quotes of all my other posts in addition to these...

so you do works in faith to earn salvation? and that's grace for you?

what would not be grace then? that we can't pay salvation with works?

i don't think any of the verses posted puts condition on being saved. repentance however it self isnt condition but maybe required of some. this however is mistaken from works which it isnt. repentace doesnt mean become a good person. you cant buy grace. grace is free.

i think John told pharisees to bring fruits of repentance due to their hypocritical faith while they werent God's followers at all. this was from laws point of view and due to the fact they were ungodly men who were suposed to serve God (as His priests).
 
Last edited:
Member
Is it faith alone??

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

We do not work to be saved; we work because we are saved. If there is anyone trusting in there works for salvation they will be greatly disappointed,

(Galatians 5:4: You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.)

It is Christ who fulfilled the law through his perfect life to bring about salvation for us.
Salvation is by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone
 
Member
Well we will skip the list of scriptures already ignored, and press on. Starting with scriptures containing the word "if," to indicate a condition:

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

"If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."

"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?"

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God...And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" This first verse commanly used to support "faith alone," is itself a work and an initiation to ministry to fulfill the great commission. Those that hear, come to believe, who become a preacher equiped and sent by God after the example of Christ.

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee...For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Ok so it doesn't say "if," but its too good of a verse not to include.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

"Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Again, no "if," but a clear command and illustration of how grace fulfills the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

"For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men...And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Here is a gem that voices my opinion beautifully: "We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God." This is a command to Christians, having already been received by God, to follow the example by which they claim to be saved!

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." How is this not a warning to Christians not to defile themselves out of reverence to God who has sanctified them?

"For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

"For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." Again a warning to those who consider themselves saved!

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."


"Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

"Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not." Is this only for financial offerings, like the widows farthing, or all things offered sincerely before God?

"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood..."

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the LAW OF CHRIST...Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him...And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons."


The notion of a response from those who claim to confess Christ is inescapable. I have never made this about earning salvation, but honoring it, as I am commanded to do!
 
Last edited:
Member
If failing to obey God means no salvation. If that's the case. If not then all those verses dont mean condition to salvation.

and salvation is still of grace like the bible says.
 
Member
@caprice09
With all due respect, I am truly unimpressed by your ability to copy paste a ton of verses that have the word “if” in them. Most where completely out of context to the topic and some proved the point that it is in fact by faith alone, for example you posted:

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

This is Galatians 2:17-19

But very cunningly you forgot to add verse 16. This is the verse you posted but in context:

Galatians 2:16-19 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

This verse that you posted actually proves the point that it is by faith alone that one can be justified.
 
Member
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It says "shall be" justified and not "were" justified, so it is a justification that will happen in the future.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And this verse can appear to contradict Romans 2:13 but what are the "works" of the law? And if someone actually had the faith of Christ what problems would they have keeping with the Law, seeing as how He kept the Law perfectly?

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

To me, this verse is saying that if while you are a Christian you are also sinning you are advertizing that Christ is the minister of sin, that He encourages and teaches sin, that He is a servant of sin. And we are told "God forbid", this cannot be.

Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Paul is saying, that if he again turns back to the sin that repenting and turning to Jesus once destroyed through forgiveness, he becomes a transgressor. Why ask Jesus for forgiveness for things that you are going to continue to do? It makes it appear as though you weren't really sorry for the sins to begin with. A transgressor is someone who is committing sin but whom knows better, or should know better.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness could not be attained by the law, BUT there WERE men in the Old Testament that had been considered righteous. How is that possible if not by law?

I'm not trying to attain righteousness by the Law regardless of the way that some understand it. The faith of Jesus Christ allows someone to also fulfill the Law through righteousness. The Law could never be kept except by the faith of Jesus Christ. One who actually has the faith of Christ will also keep the Law through that faith, so it is by faith that a person is saved and always has been. And this faith is something that someone must continue to have to be saved.
 
Member
Righteousness could not be attained by the law, BUT there WERE men in the Old Testament that had been considered righteous. How is that possible if not by law?

What made Abraham righteous, seeing that Abraham was living well before the law was given?

1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:


7 “Oh, what joy for those

whose disobedience is forgiven,

whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those

whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”
Romans 4:1-8 (NLT)
 
Member
For those who are uncertain on this question posed in the OP, please read Romans chapter 4. It should be very clear, in fact clear enough to remove any doubt.

1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:


7 “Oh, what joy for those

whose disobedience is forgiven,

whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those

whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”


9 Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith.10 But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!
11 Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.12 And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith.14 If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless.15 For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
16 So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.17 That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.” This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.
18 Even when there was no reason for hope, Abraham kept hoping—believing that he would become the father of many nations. For God had said to him, “That’s how many descendants you will have!” 19 And Abraham’s faith did not weaken, even though, at about 100 years of age, he figured his body was as good as dead—and so was Sarah’s womb.
20 Abraham never wavered in believing God’s promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger, and in this he brought glory to God.21 He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises.22 And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous.23 And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded24 for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.25 He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.
Romans 4:1-25 (NLT)
 
Last edited:
Top