Is it faith alone??

[caprice09]

That's the point Jari! There is not one promise of salvation by grace that does not also include one condition, one requirement from us, or one warning not to fall away!

"Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." It doesn't get clearer than that!

The basis of your argument is verses like the following which I have included in their full context.

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:8-22)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:9-17)

The idea of calling one Lord is a submission of obedience, otherwise the title meant nothing. As in the verse:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." (Mat 7:15-29)

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers..." (Rom 1:1-9)

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-23)

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Great quote from someone a few posts back that I overlooked and brought several more verses to mind...thank you.
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
"Whether of them twain did the will of his father?" Which did the works He told them to do?
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

I am not advocating the law, but reverencing the salvation of God. Is not God "who will render to every man according to his deeds," due the love that He bestowed upon us? Is that not the gospel, the commission, the example, and commandment of Christ? As far as it being the works of God within us to accomplish this, I say AMEN. The Spirit is the perfect testimony of Christ, the perfect expression of love; being God as also Christ is. For what is worthy of God, but God? The warnings and commands are to let the works of God manifest themselves through you. I fully believe in the providence of God to supply the motivation and means to accomplish His will...But He absolutely will not force your hand to obey. You will give "cheerfully" out of love and "not grudgingly" "insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand."

 

[will]

The notion of a response from those who claim to confess Christ is inescapable. I have never made this about earning salvation, but honoring it, as I am commanded to do!

First, no one here will argue with you about honoring salvation.
But please continue by explaining how do you go about doing that?

By making sure that your good deeds outnumber your bad deeds in a day?
By making sure that you don't sin anymore? How about sins that you don't even know or aware of?
By your inherent goodness?

How?

And please, if you don't mind, answer the question to the point, in a couple of sentences only.
Giving me and others another 200 lines essay is not going to help anyone.

The message of salvation is simple, it should not require lengthy exposition to explain.
Our Lord never gave one for starters.

 

[caprice09]

The argument up to this point is whether there is anything a believer is to DO after salvation. And if these are required then what happens if these are not done. The long list of scriptures is to show how many references there are requiring action on the part of those who claim to believe in Christ. As to a few words on how, how about one sentence and a quote.

Obey the one you call Lord!

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

How can we say we "believe" unto salvation that He is the Word of God and disregard His example and teachings. How can we bear the service of God, and not think that there is ANYTHING required of us. As to the futility of attempting to serve God in the flesh...how did Christ do it in the flesh? The Holy Spirit of God which we receive through faith in Him!

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father...And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you...At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

The point is following after the life, death and resurrection of Christ is a spiritual baptism whereby we also die and are raised before Him as a new creature by the workings of His Word made manifest within us by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit yearns to make manifest the testimony of Christ, even as the Son made manifest the heritage of the Father. To claim to be adopted unto that heritage, and having received the very Breath of God, and cast off His Word and counsel is not the likeness of the last Adam but the first.

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

The truth can only make you free if you hearken!

 

[bgsda]

Why is it Jesus in Rev. starting at chp.2 to the letter to the churches He always told them " I know thy works". Please explain why is Jesus looking at their works when giving them reproof?

 

[jari]

bgsda because He is talking about their conduct. there's nothing more to it.

 

[caprice09]

Because you act upon what you truly believe! It is impossible to believe something is true and simply disregard it, or to believe that something is important to leave it on a shelf in neglect.

{For works are the manifestations of our faith, acting upon that which we believe worthwhile: righteous works manifest our faith in God, and wicked works manifest our faith in the world. Never do we have all the facts in which to make an informed decision, we do that which we are compelled to do through faith. Fear is anti-faith, instead of compelling one to act, fear repels from confronting the issue or deters from a specific action. Fear is having the greater faith in the opposition of the action to be taken through the unwillingness to incur the risk of harm against one's self. Lust is being tempted towards an action in order to be compensated with the promise of reward with which one is persuaded to disregard fears and reservations. Spiritual idolatry is the false representation of God with which one uses to motivate toward or away from a specific action. For whom should we fear more than God, to the reverencing of His Word and eschewing of evil; and what is to be coveted and yearned for more than the blessings and graces of God as evidence of His love (for the which no fear could restrain or deter us)? Think of the soul as a balance, the scales of which tilts in accordance with its faith toward one side or the other ("honest scales and balances belong to the LORD; all the weights in the bag are of his making."). By exalting one side more than it’s due, simultaneously the other side is diminished and humbled. By exalting those things which are not of God, we simultaneously take for granted the things of God, robbing Him of the glory to which He is entitled and bestowing it upon those things which are not; by appropriately exalting the things of God, the things of the world are fallen from the pedestal to which they were falsely exalted and the LORD is properly enthroned and exalted to the pedestal in which all things are humbled before Him through the abundance of His grace.}

</SPAN>{But Hallelujah! For we are the elect of the LORD who have received the betrothal unto our Lord Christ in truth, having repented of our wanderings in sin, and having received the benevolence of Christ through the sacrifice of His body, as unto a betrothed wife. Blessed is He that has received us as His bride and glory, and who came in the flesh, bearing the glory of our righteousness, that He may offer His life unto us in sacrifice and initiate the covenant of betrothal; which is ours to reciprocate in our bodies in sacrifice to our Husband. For as the Lord counted not His body His own, and would pay benevolence unto us, in grace, as unto a wife, and counts us as His glory and gift of God; surely we are to reciprocate these duties unto our Husband, of whom we are saved by grace. "What? Know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own? For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s."

For in the business world, there is a cliché of supply and demand, stating that, "you can only charge what another is willing to pay for it;" the spiritual proverb is better stated, "you show how much you value something by what you’re prepared to sacrifice for it." Whether in the form of time, money or effort we offer our sacrifices, in faith, toward all of our beliefs, whether unto God or idols (Therefore, "whatsoever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; knowing that of the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ. But he that does wrong shall receive for the wrong which he has done: and there is no respect of persons."). See how highly we are exalted by the Father’s sacrifice, that we are called Sons, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; and that by the Son’s self sacrifice, whereby we are given the Holy Spirit, we are called the Bride of Christ; that we may offer ourselves in the Holy Spirit as Sons unto the Father and a Bride fit for Christ. Amen.}</SPAN>
</SPAN>
</SPAN>

 

[bgsda]

well Jari if you want to call it conduct then its faith and conduct as you can see as Jesus said. See Jari and eveyone who believes its just faith I too believed that once when I was in a charasmatic, Word of Faith denomination. Me personally was not growing or being sanctified by Christ with " you just have to believe and you'll be blessed" walk with the Lord. Their has to be proof or fruits that you are a Christian. If one does not manifest the fruits of the Spirit found in Gal.5:21,22 then we are in some trouble. How do u show you love by action. How do u show u have joy by action. etc. Like a man put it once he said if you are called to court one day , which is coming soon, to answer for your faith would you have enough evidence to proove that you really are a Christian? Would you be found to be a good witness for the Lord? Another ques. is how is it then that we can witness to others without talking to them? Is it not by our works or fruits or conduct as you said. God bless

 

[jari]

what you need to prove bgsda? why?

 

[bgsda]

Jari I dont need to prove anything I just dont want you to be deceived thats all. See jari you cannot tell that I'm doing this out of love because you cannot see my actions or conduct personally. But I am and like I said I was in that WOF "other gospel" once. God has set me freeeeee. Amen. Also we have to be careful how we come before the Word of God. We CANNOT come with pre-conceived ideas and try to make the Scriptures fit what we were taught. Thats no bueno. God bless Jari. Forgive me if I seemed mad or something.

 

[bgsda]

Jari I dont need to prove anything I just dont want you to be deceived thats all. See jari you cannot tell that I'm doing this out of love because you cannot see my actions or conduct personally. But I am and like I said I was in that WOF "other gospel" once. God has set me freeeeee. Amen. Also we have to be careful how we come before the Word of God. We CANNOT come with pre-conceived ideas and try to make the Scriptures fit what we were taught. Thats no bueno. God bless Jari. Forgive me if I seemed mad or something.

 

[jari]

Jari I dont need to prove anything I just dont want you to be deceived thats all. See jari you cannot tell that I'm doing this out of love because you cannot see my actions or conduct personally. But I am and like I said I was in that WOF "other gospel" once. God has set me freeeeee. Amen. Also we have to be careful how we come before the Word of God. We CANNOT come with pre-conceived ideas and try to make the Scriptures fit what we were taught. Thats no bueno. God bless Jari. Forgive me if I seemed mad or something.

what I meant with my question was what your trying to prove to God? and why..

 

[bgsda]

sorry i took the question wrong. yeah i dont need to prove nothing to God but I do want and need to obey. True obedience will bring good works because by their fruits you shall know them. Just dont be deceived Jari the devil and his demons believe, or have faith, and tremble to the sound of Jesus. But that is the difference they stop there. I ask you and others please dont stop there. We have to show thru our life as a witness that God is in us. We can only do it with the strenght of Jesus.AMEN

 

[jari]

so your trying to do works so that you will have more faith or that your trying to do works so that you can say you have faith?

 

[bgsda]

no jari just saying i dont want to be like the devil and his demons and say all i need is to believe or have faith. Faith without works is dead as James said it right. There has to be a surrender to all things which will bring good works. hope you understand so you will not be backslidden like many do. Or even worse like many are today Rev.:3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. See many are deceived Jari. MANY. Again all the letters start with "Iknow your works". Does God know yours jari or you dont have any cause you only believe. Scary right it should be. Think about it. God Bless

 

[jari]

no jari just saying i dont want to be like the devil and his demons and say all i need is to believe or have faith

Mar 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

 

[jari]

There has to be a surrender to all things which will bring good works.

yes works based salvation. sad that you believe this is what you must do.

Again all the letters start with "Iknow your works". Does God know yours jari or you dont have any cause you only believe.

obviously the letters were written to church pastors. but if you wish to make theology about it then thats your choice. but im not turning everything i read to "oh i must do this and that and those things and if I dont do these God will be very mad". nope, we are saved by grace. so good luck trying to justify your self with works.
but i'm not interested in your theology because I know what the bible says on HOW (by Grace) we are saved. and that's what I should be believing more and more... and not what some man tries to add to God's word.

 

[JehovahDaughter]

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." This has nothing to do with salvation. James 2:17 is not telling us that we must add works to our faith in order to be saved, it is explaining what real faith is. If you claim you have faith in the one and true God; your works will show it. This does not mean a Christian should be thinking, "I must do good everyday and I shall be saved". This is a slippery slope, because how much work exactly is enough work to be saved? This is one of the very important and major differences between Christianity and all other religions. Other religions tell their followers to "do, do, do"(you have to do this and that and this as well....), Christianity says "It has already been done. Believe it" When Jesus said on the cross "It is fiished" in John 19:30, He meant it. He did all the work that would ever be needed to wash away every man's sin.

Just like the bible says "By their fruits ye shall know them", it is a similar thing. If your faith is dead, the things that you do in your life will display it. You cannot claim to have faith in Jehovah God and be an unrepentant thief or fornicator or an abuser or... etc We as human beings have no power whatsoever to save ourselves; our works CANNOT save us, if it could this would make what Christ did for us meaningless because we would be able to save ourselves by our works. Even Abraham was counted righteous, not because of his works, but because he had faith. Genesis 15:6 "And he(Abraham) believed in the Lord; and He(the Lord) counted it to him(Abraham) for righteousness.".
We are saved because we believe and we do works(by the Holy Spirit leading us) NOT TO BE SAVED, but BECAUSE WE ARE ALREADY SAVED.

 

[bgsda]

TRUE love will bring obedience. Obedience will be shown by what you do. What you do is either good works or bad works or fruits or conduct. Jesus stated that in John 15:16" You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you". Jesus did works John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. See the Jews hated God and Jesus cause they did not bear good fruit or works or conduct. Well I see that this is going nowhere cause its obvious that faith alone without works is dead. James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Then by Inspiration he gives 2 examples that even my 6 year old kids can understand James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Theres no more to say. I am not the Holy Spirit to convict you guys of this matter. We are told thru Scripture very plainly on this matter. I just pray that you guys would yield to God and not to man. God bless and my prayers are with you all.

 

[jiggyfly]

The scriptures state that suffering teaches obedience, and that Christ, Himself learned obedience through suffering. So then is obedience the fruit of love or is it the fruit of suffering?

 

[JehovahDaughter]

See this is how I see it. We are justified because we are saved by Christ, not the other way round. If the other way round was the case; then we do not need to preach the gospel to every "good muslim" or "good buddhist" or "good wiccan"; because their works, according to your theory will justify them? I do not believe that works will save a person, but faith will and works only confirms a persons salvation.