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Is it faith alone??

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jiggyfly: You believe that James was a dispensationalist?

No, I believe that you pointing out that it was a message to the twelve tribes of Israel made it sound like you were taking a Dispensational stand with the book of James? Why else would you have pointed out the fact? If not to say that the things written in James may not be for us today because we're all Gentiles?

jiggyfly: Ahhh, you believe in salvation by works. Seems you believe salvation must be earned? Have you any scriptures to support your belief?

jiggy, do you believe that a person has to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to be saved? If you do, well, that sounds like works salvation to me because you are claiming to play a part in your own salvation. If not, I would love to hear your explanation of salvation without freewill?

And, yes, I have plenty of scripture to back my belief. I've shown it and explained it, but right now, for whatever reason, you are blinded to the truth.

For your own sakes, stop letting Matthew Henry and Charles Stanley, and ANY other flesh and blood man tell you what to believe and read the Bible for yourselves, asking the Lord to guide you. If you think that God is telling you to listen to these men for the truth then it's not the voice of the God from the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 
Member
No, I believe that you pointing out that it was a message to the twelve tribes of Israel made it sound like you were taking a Dispensational stand with the book of James? Why else would you have pointed out the fact? If not to say that the things written in James may not be for us today because we're all Gentiles?



jiggy, do you believe that a person has to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to be saved? If you do, well, that sounds like works salvation to me because you are claiming to play a part in your own salvation. If not, I would love to hear your explanation of salvation without freewill?

And, yes, I have plenty of scripture to back my belief. I've shown it and explained it, but right now, for whatever reason, you are blinded to the truth.

For your own sakes, stop letting Matthew Henry and Charles Stanley, and ANY other flesh and blood man tell you what to believe and read the Bible for yourselves, asking the Lord to guide you. If you think that God is telling you to listen to these men for the truth then it's not the voice of the God from the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Not sure why you think I listen to Charles Stanley or any other religious teacher but once again your very wrong.

Maybe in your own eyes you have given scriptural support for your opinion, but obviously your blinded or simply choose to ignore the many scriptures that have been posted throughout this thread. But I won't hound you or try to correct your lack of scripture understanding especially your disregard for context and just leave you trying to earn your salvation by doing religious works until your exhausted.

I will say your last post made me chuckle.:peace:
 
Member
I think it's pretty obvious who it is that avoids direct questions about their faith.

And as for me being wrong about assuming that you listen to Charles Stanley or any others, if your reading and comprehension were ... up to par, you would have known that my comments were not directed at just you. Again, I wasn't the one that was wrong.

Jesus is Lord as well as Savior and to teach someone that His commandments do not have to be kept is to teach rebellion against the Lord. For now, you stand with a very large group of like-minded people and I know that the numbers give you comfort, but if your trust is not in the Lord then you have failed already.

If you are sinning everyday, you are not right with the Lord. I don't care if you call it works salvation, or whatever, the scripture is clear about it. It's impossible to quit sinning? God is known for doing the impossible, isn't he? It won't happen for you if you don't believe that it can though. And you can't be saved and continue to live sinfully, sorry it doesn't work that way.

I'm through with you, jiggy, you avoid too many questions
 
Member
It's a good thing God is more merciful and accepting than we are of one another. Is that not the works of faith or "fruits of repentance" or the "law (of/to) Christ", accepting and tolerating one another knowing that God has accepted them also. Honoring the example by which we have been accepted to God, counting ourselves "bought with a price" to perform the ministry by the same example by which we were reconciled to God ("And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." And "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.")..

"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak....And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ."
 
Member
Luke 6:46
IF we obey God and keep His commandments we can be saved.



Hi Stickz,

I think it is the other way around, that we obey God and keep His commandments because we are saved, not to be (or be kept) saved. I don't understand why all the people in this thread that go on and on about works and faith and maintaining your salvation seem to have a hard time with this. It is as if some people struggle with sin in their life, or self-doubt, or a lack of understanding of the enormous power of the cross and what Christ accomplished on it, and not understanding grace get all panicky and afraid that they will someone lose their standing with God if they don't keep continuously hustling for His approval by showing them how obedient they are. Or something like that???

Bring the Lord your sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving instead of sacrifices of works. Jesus didn't come down here to do half the job and then saddle us with the burden and responsibility of doing the other half. Like I said in one of my other posts, God is not my co-pilot, he is my pilot. Which means He is the Sovereign God that doesn't need my help in anything, and I have no power or ability to contribute to His plans for me, including my salvation. God bless!
 
Member
seems very twisted to say we need to manage our salvation if Jesus is the savior.

like do it your self salvation.. tools can be found from God's toolbox. now let's see if your good enough.

which would give lot room for boast. and doesnt lineup with the fact that we are already declared as sinners and unworthy. which is why only God can by pardon (grace) declare us as worthy.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Hi Stickz,

I think it is the other way around, that we obey God and keep His commandments because we are saved, not to be (or be kept) saved.

Bring the Lord your sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving instead of sacrifices of works.

Do we honor our parents because we fear them, love them, or because God says we should? Replace parents with God in this question and add praise, worship, sacrifice, works. Now what do you choose?

Unless we choose "love" in both cases then anything else is for the wrong reasons.

YBIC
C4E

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
 
Member
Okay, Peace Seeker, do you then keep all of His commandments BECAUSE you are saved? Out of love ( isn't that what you are saying? )?

Peace Seeker: Jesus didn't come down here to do half the job and then saddle us with the burden and responsibility of doing the other half.

And yet he still said pick up your cross and follow me, right? If the burden of the cross was his to bear alone, why would he say this?

Peace Seeker: Like I said in one of my other posts, God is not my co-pilot, he is my pilot. Which means He is the Sovereign God that doesn't need my help in anything, and I have no power or ability to contribute to His plans for me, including my salvation.

And yet He still requires that people "believe" before they receive salvation, right? Did you or did you not play a part in accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior when you were "saved", Peace Seeker? Was it your choice to believe, or was there some other force at work there?

Peace Seeker: I don't understand why all the people in this thread that go on and on about works and faith and maintaining your salvation seem to have a hard time with this.

We feel the same way about you, if you would just listen and make even a little effort to understand. We are just as sure about our belief as you are yours. We aren't doing it just to annoy you, and I know that you are not intending to annoy us. I think everyone just gets a little too caught up trying to teach what they believe to be true instead of listening to what the other side has to say. It's obvious that we don't understand how one another have come to the conclusions that we have, so throwing scripture back and forth without the correct amount of explanation on the interpretation is pointless.

I have made many attempts to understand WHY people believe the things that they do, and no one seems to want to explain them. You only want to say what IS and belittle the people that don't just accept what you say as truth. If you can't answer questions about how you came to conclusions about what you believe why should anyone believe what you say? We ask for reason behind it and you avoid the questions with answers about the things of God being beyond human reasoning and such ( which just sounds like a total cop out ) and yet somehow you understand it enough to have decided that you believe it yourselves, right? I mean, surely you wouldn't so stubbornly hang on to something as total truth that even you yourselves don't understand, would you? Can a person actually say that they believe something that they really don't understand? No, not without being a liar. And God wouldn't require us to believe something that is beyond our comprehension. So, why get upset when someone questions what you believe?

Asking questions before you buy into anything ( I've always been told ) is a wise thing to do. But, when it comes to God, asking questions or just being hesitant to believe what someone is saying is considered to be a lack of faith, and you are belittled for it. Prove to me that what you believe will get me saved and I will gladly accept it, but I'm not willing to just accept anything especially when it can't be reasoned out into something that makes sense and that lines up with ALL scripture. If one verse seems to contradict something then things should be examined carefully until the correct way to view things is certain. I have found that when the Bible appears to contradict itself it's actually the fault of the one that is interpreting the scripture and not the scripture itself.
 
Member
I think it's pretty obvious who it is that avoids direct questions about their faith.

And as for me being wrong about assuming that you listen to Charles Stanley or any others, if your reading and comprehension were ... up to par, you would have known that my comments were not directed at just you. Again, I wasn't the one that was wrong.

Jesus is Lord as well as Savior and to teach someone that His commandments do not have to be kept is to teach rebellion against the Lord. For now, you stand with a very large group of like-minded people and I know that the numbers give you comfort, but if your trust is not in the Lord then you have failed already.

If you are sinning everyday, you are not right with the Lord. I don't care if you call it works salvation, or whatever, the scripture is clear about it. It's impossible to quit sinning? God is known for doing the impossible, isn't he? It won't happen for you if you don't believe that it can though. And you can't be saved and continue to live sinfully, sorry it doesn't work that way.

I'm through with you, jiggy, you avoid too many questions

Ok then guess this will be our last discussion. I assume you will not be responding to any of my post from here on out, so too-da-loo Stickz.
 
Member
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26 (NLT)

9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
Col 2:9-10 (NLT)

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
Col 2:20-23 (NLT)
 
Member
The biggest confusion I find is what people actually think Jesus commanded. He certainly did not command the Law although He fulfilled it. His Words to us simply summed up were to love God and each other. Do those things and you will have kept the commands of Christ.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
The biggest confusion I find is what people actually think Jesus commanded. He certainly did not command the Law although He fulfilled it. His Words to us simply summed up were to love God and each other. Do those things and you will have kept the commands of Christ.

I agree with what you've stated and is what I find most perplexing in all the posts, or I shouldn't say all, but most. That if one does as our Lord has stated, that somehow if we break one of the Ten Commandments that we can still be following the Lords summation to Love God and each other.
 
Member
Do we honor our parents because we fear them, love them, or because God says we should? Replace parents with God in this question and add praise, worship, sacrifice, works. Now what do you choose?

Unless we choose "love" in both cases then anything else is for the wrong reasons.

YBIC
C4E

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Hi, Christ4Ever.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with your question, but I honor God because He is in me and He has given me His nature which enables me to honor Him. If He wasn't in me I wouldn't care to honor Him at all. I don't do it because He said I have to, I do it because it comes naturally with being born-again. I love Him because He loved me first, and because He loved me He gave me the grace to be able to love Him. If doing works for God isn't effortless and from a loving and giving heart, then it is legalistic and they will be burned up like stubble and hay one day. God bless!
 
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Member
It seems to me that the discrepancy arises from trying to apply the old covenant to the church instead of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:8-12
 
Member
What discrepency?
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Hebrew 10 (just a little further than your quote.)

And again, "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

As for thankgiving..."And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole."

And as to offering the LORD of that which we have..."And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

Christ lived as an example that He might minister in word and deed, and calls to make disciples of all nations. Paul called to be a minister took it as an obligation to minister by example also not only in following after His example but that the ministery might not be hindered or comprimised, teaching others to serve the Lord as he also does!
 
Member
What discrepency?
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Hebrew 10 (just a little further than your quote.)

And again, "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

As for thankgiving..."And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole."

And as to offering the LORD of that which we have..."And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

Christ lived as an example that He might minister in word and deed, and calls to make disciples of all nations. Paul called to be a minister took it as an obligation to minister by example also not only in following after His example but that the ministery might not be hindered or comprimised, teaching others to serve the Lord as he also does!

it doesn't say loose salvation in there.
 
Member
What discrepency?
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Hebrew 10 (just a little further than your quote.)

Keeping this scripture within it's context, do you think it means that anyone who sins has trodden underfoot the Son of God and counted His blood unholy?
 
Member
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Obviously we are talking different levels of 'willfully" sinning here, perhaps to the point of ignoring the Holy Spirit continually but no one can be sure.
 
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