Homosexuality

[B-A-C]

BAC, why was there a separation in prison?

I wouldn't call Sheol prison. Sheol was divided into to halves.... Hades (which is still there)... and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom, which might not still be there.
One side was unpleasant place to be. The other side was a seemingly pleasant place to be.
To me... only Hades qualifies as a jail.

Sheol itself was only a "jail" to the righteous in Abraham's until Jesus cleared the way for them to go to heaven.
Like Hades or temporary and the lake of Fire is permanent.
Abrahams Bosom was temporary and heaven/New Jerusalem is permanent. I personally do not believe Abraham's Bosom exists anymore.

I don't think anyone, has been thrown into "Prison" yet (the lake of fire) that will happen at the judgment.

 

[Sue D.]

Dear Sue, are you a Bible believing Christian?

If you are, you have to a accept, both the OT and the NT. Had in not been for the OT there would be no NT. We are grafted into their root stock.

ALL scripture is God breathed.

Of course I'm a Bible-believing Christian. And, yes, of Course I accept both Old and New Testaments. the 'grafted into their root stock' I'm not sure about. Isn't that getting into whether or not the Church is Israel? But that's an entirely different subject.

 

[Sue D.]

I wouldn't call Sheol prison. Sheol was divided into to halves.... Hades (which is still there)... and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom, which might not still be there.
One side was unpleasant place to be. The other side was a seemingly pleasant place to be.
To me... only Hades qualifies as a jail.

Sheol itself was only a "jail" to the righteous in Abraham's until Jesus cleared the way for them to go to heaven.
Like Hades or temporary and the lake of Fire is permanent.
Abrahams Bosom was temporary and heaven/New Jerusalem is permanent. I personally do not believe Abraham's Bosom exists anymore.

I don't think anyone, has been thrown into "Prison" yet (the lake of fire) that will happen at the judgment.

The non-believers are still in the 'hell' side or whatever it's called. That is where the rich man was and was on torment. And he wanted someone to go warn his brothers. But he was told No.

the Other part is where Jesus Christ went during those 3 days -- so, yes, when Jesus Christ Did die He went to get the Righteous dead and brought them up with Him.

The other part -- Hades --is still occupied and will be until the white throne judgement and then they will be thrown into the lake of Fire. That would be your 'jail' waiting for Prison.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The non-believers are still in the 'hell' side or whatever it's called. That is where the rich man was and was on torment. And he wanted someone to go warn his brothers. But he was told No.

the Other part is where Jesus Christ went during those 3 days -- so, yes, when Jesus Christ Did die He went to get the Righteous dead and brought them up with Him.

The other part -- Hades --is still occupied and will be until the white throne judgement and then they will be thrown into the lake of Fire. That would be your 'jail' waiting for Prison.

If I understand correctly, I may, I may not.

Up to the death and resurrection of Jesus their were the Righteous dead in waiting, Jesus went to the pit and brought them up, what we would call the Old Testament saved souls, Saints.

From the death and resurrection of Jesus, the saved souls and spirits go to the current heaven, the body to Hades, the grave, and the lost souls and spirits go to Shoal.

 

[Sue D.]

Since this thread is about homosexuality -- there has been a question as to whether a homosexual is doomed to hell. And , hopefully, it got pointed out that the Only thing that dooms a person To hell -- lake of fire and brimstone for eternity -- Is the personal rejection of God's way to stay Out of there.

And then that it's Not sinning to be Tempted to do something that we know is against God's Word -- it's actually Doing the action.

And Then when something is Allowed to be a Lifestyle that it's definitely a Problem. And Then to Further complicate the situation -- there Are those who claim to be born-again believers who are living a homosexual life-style. They say that they pray together and read Bible together and proceed with their 'lifestyle' -- but since they are monogomos -- and they really do care for each other -- that there's really nothing Wrong with their same-sex intimacy, And so to 'leave them alone'. That they aren't hurting anything.

But Then there are Also those who are homosexual and Don't really Care What God says about it. Society allows same-sex unions and they Go for it. They have kids together -- well -- they Can't but they use medical technowledgy to enable them to do that which against nature. The 'in your face' people. that 'we' have a right to do whatever makes us 'happy'.

There's a Big difference between those two groups of people. It's their Inner attitude that God goes by and 'we' go by their outward actions.

But it's Still Very much putrid in God's eyes. It's an abomination to God / He Hates it.

And God's Word Does say that God created 'them' male and female -- to become 'one' together with the Natural ability to have children and become Family. And that sexual intimacy is to be special for marriage Only. No sexual intimacy is to participated on outside of marriage. SO -- according to God's Word -- single people are to be celebate until they are married to a person of the opposite sex.

Society does not appear to have boundaries. But when a person's eternal destiny is at stake -- we'd better be careful as to who / what we're following. since Society doesn't seem to care --maybe we Should listen to the God who Does care.

 

[Brother Paul]

Very good. There are a few perspectives here without expressed discontent with each other. So let me share what I perceive the scriptures are saying and you can feel free to disagree.

I believe what the scripture is teaching is not about Homosexuality the orientation but rather Sodomy. In the Bible we see the Sodomites (many of whom were married with children), the Sodomites of Judges 19 (many of whom were probably bi-sexual) and other references as being abominable. Therefore I believe the scriptures are teaching more about the abominable nature of sodomy but not only between men (or men with boys) but also as it pertains to women when it says they exchanged the natural use for the unnatural, i.e. their preference toward sodomy. The one place in the New Testament where English translations use the word Homosexual, if you search the etymology of the Greek term actually refers to male prostitution (again inviting sodomy).

In my opinion (and this is mine not necessarily the Lord's), one does not have to be gay to be a sodomite...being gay is not the abomination but being a sodomite. Sodomy as well as pederasty were common in pagan cultures all the way well into the Greek and Roman empire periods. I believe the exegesis will bear this out.

Please comment, rebut, or present alternate views as the Lord leads (but try and be sure it is the Lord and not denominational theology).

Be blessed

Paul

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother Paul -- I can assure you that I'm Not speaking from Baptist doctrine but Bible doctrine. I believe Bible / God's Word and am Baptist / conservative / because the Bible teaches baptism by immersion rather than infant sprinkling.

God's Word tells us both In Leviticus And in Romans 1 That a man laying with another man the same way that a man and woman lay together is an abomination to God. And in Romans that women are not to lay with another woman the same way that a man and a woman would lay together and that passage includes men in that directive. It's an abomination to God --it's Putrid in His eyes.

Men 'doing it' together is done differently - obviously-- than women 'doing it' because of their differences in anatomy. Men can commit sodomy -- women can't. It Also says that it's a perversion for a woman to have partake in beasteality.

It sounds a little bit like maybe you're trying to rationalize a bit.

So - you're also saying that That would include being bi-sexual. There no doubt are men who get married so as to take away the stigma of being single and people 'wondering'. But they develop a 'side' relationship with another man. Thus, supposedly the 'best of both worlds' Except when the husband brings home a disease contracted from their side relationship and passes it on to his wife. And that's a Hard way to discover the 'secret' life of your husband.

Being a pedophile // men preferring being with boys for their enjoyment. Sickness to the core. A great deal of damage to the boy that doesn't go away. Emotional/ psychological.

And there Are those who Do try to rationalize what the 'real' sin was in Sodom and Gomorrah. The men who went to the one man's house and openly asked / demanded/ that the two stranger be given to them for sex.

It's an abomination to God. Whatever You choose to call it. Homosexuality and that includes lesbianism.

 

[Brother Paul]

@Brother Paul -- I can assure you that I'm Not speaking from Baptist doctrine but Bible doctrine. I believe Bible / God's Word and am Baptist / conservative / because the Bible teaches baptism by immersion rather than infant sprinkling.

God's Word tells us both In Leviticus And in Romans 1 That a man laying with another man the same way that a man and woman lay together is an abomination to God. And in Romans that women are not to lay with another woman the same way that a man and a woman would lay together and that passage includes men in that directive. It's an abomination to God --it's Putrid in His eyes.

Men 'doing it' together is done differently - obviously-- than women 'doing it' because of their differences in anatomy. Men can commit sodomy -- women can't. It Also says that it's a perversion for a woman to have partake in beasteality.

It sounds a little bit like maybe you're trying to rationalize a bit.

So - you're also saying that That would include being bi-sexual. There no doubt are men who get married so as to take away the stigma of being single and people 'wondering'. But they develop a 'side' relationship with another man. Thus, supposedly the 'best of both worlds' Except when the husband brings home a disease contracted from their side relationship and passes it on to his wife. And that's a Hard way to discover the 'secret' life of your husband.

Being a pedophile // men preferring being with boys for their enjoyment. Sickness to the core. A great deal of damage to the boy that doesn't go away. Emotional/ psychological.

And there Are those who Do try to rationalize what the 'real' sin was in Sodom and Gomorrah. The men who went to the one man's house and openly asked / demanded/ that the two stranger be given to them for sex.

It's an abomination to God. Whatever You choose to call it. Homosexuality and that includes lesbianism.

Hi Sue, the Lord bless....and I also believe the word of God to be true.

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother Paul -- needless to say -- it feels Strange to be talking with both You and Brother-Paul. Not together this evening. But he's kind of a friend.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings Paul my dear brother, welcome back to the forum.

I believe being gay is an umbrella the LGBTQ+ are all under, they are veiled from the truth by their sins, it is like an umbrella it covers them but can never protect them.

Sin is wicked, their acts are a reflection of sodomy, as the Old Testament is a reflection of the New.
SIN is the same yesterday, today, till Christ's return, God is the same yesterday, today, forever.

I was only part of a denomination for the first 7 years in the last 30 brother, Jesus is my Lord, I like you view everything according to scripture.

I avoid denominational talk, as it is not scriptural, (except to correct wrongful thoughts or statements), there is only One Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, saved believers worldwide, regardless of age, colour, language, etc.

As for sexual sin, all sexual sin done outside the marriage of a man and woman is, SIN, Jesus makes clear Sin is Wicked, it is against God's Law, it is against what God planned for us, this includes lustful thoughts, Jesus confirms if we look at another and have sexual thoughts we have already commited the sin in our hearts.

Bless you my friend.

Brother-Paul (Dove of peace Icon)

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother Paul -- I can assure you that I'm Not speaking from Baptist doctrine but Bible doctrine. I believe Bible / God's Word and am Baptist / conservative / because the Bible teaches baptism by immersion rather than infant sprinkling.

Greeting Sue

I appreciate this post was for Brother Paul, not myself Brother-Paul (Dove icon).

I only reply here to one statement from your message, I hope you don't mind sister.

We do not have to be a Baptist Church denomination to agree with baptism by submersion. There are many church fellowships who do baptism by immersion, in fact we do not have to go to a church fellowship, it can be done in a lake, a pond, a stream, a river, even in the bath at home for those that have one. Providing the heart is right and receptive to God's Word, providing the person understands what is happening, taking place, and it is witnessed it can be done anywhere.

Iceland or Antarctica may be a little cold for sure, but there ways and means.

God knows our heart and sees all things, he even knows the secrets of our heart, he knows what we are going to say before we say it.

Praise the Lord

Bless you

brother-paul

 

[Sue D.]

It seems we are talking about the difference between the universal body of born-again believers and the Local body of the same.

In the New Testament -- Paul's 3 missionary journeys. Church groups that were formed in Asia and 'we' are given guidelines for the leaders of those local groups. Back in That day, the believers met in homes or whatever was convenient -- outside -- where ever. Thus -- we Do have Scriptural support for the local church groups as well.

The idea Of baptism is to show Publically the decision that has already been made in the person's heart. What is the point of being in a bathroom tub since it would probably be only you and the person baptizing you. I Do know of a father and son who were both saved at basically the same time and felt the need to be baptised 'then and there'. But they were from a background that believed the baptism was necessary to Complete salvation. They baptised each other in the family bathtub. Well -- from a background that did infant sprinkling -- they came to understand the need for baptism by immersion. So That was done immediately.

If a person is not part of a local group of believers -- Who is to determine if the person Does understand baptism and is ready for it. Okay -- you prefer the term 'church fellowship' rather than the concept of a local church. But aren't they - in fact- synonymous

 

[Brother Paul]

@Brother Paul -- needless to say -- it feels Strange to be talking with both You and Brother-Paul. Not together this evening. But he's kind of a friend.

I know I tried to get this straightened out (I was willing to change my name tag) but it was suggested to just remain...

In regards to the discussion...male on male sodomy is one specific form (in other words it is about the act not the orientation, as confused as that orientation might be...just my opinion). I also tend to not demonize specific sins...I believe it is equally abominable to God when alleged Christians continually engaging in pre-marital fornication judge Homosexuals as "condemned" when all our sin equally separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2)...hence either grace is for all who accept His finished work or it is not (John 1:12).

Now I agree that when we come to Christ we should strive to sin no more, but that is not reality (perhaps a particular sin....more difficult with the one that as Paul says "so easily besets us"). As I see it, in real life for most, sin was their lifestyle. In fact, most did not even see what they were doing as sin. Not sinning was the exception not the rule.

Then when one comes to Christ, learning to walk in the Spirit is a process (for me almost a decade). Once I realized Christ was real and essential I wrestled with the flesh for about ten years before I was use-able constructively by God (perhaps so I would really grasp the patience of His grace). Now not sinning is the lifestyle, and sin is the exception to the rule (just being honest) over which I usually feel serious contrition and end up in prayer. Repentance is not only a one time decision/action but a continual lifestyle void of the guilt (knowing my redeemer lives and His finished work is sufficient as we see in Hebrews 10).

Having said all that all sin save blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is forgivable so I look at gay people as people who need Christ just as I did...if they have come to God I trust He will work out what He wants to in their lives. What I find interesting is are the things Jesus found to be most important when He comes to judge (found in Matthew 25:31 on). The emphasis seems to be more on spiritual attitude toward God and our fellow humans than on specific sins of the flesh. There will always be actual believers (Romans 8:9) and make-believers (same passage) that are in the church doing all the right churchy things (see the 10 virgins story also Matthew 25)...our job is not to uproot them or we can destroy much of the Harvest (tares and wheat)...when He comes (the Parousia) all that will be sorted out. In the meantime I want all to hear the word as oft as they can...the church is full of sinners and the only righteous are those God declares righteous in His eyes (whatever they do). Salvation is ALWAYS by grace...through faith, not by what one does or does not do (though that is a strong witness). I watch to see the growth and progress and leave judgment part to Him (who knows whether one was brought to the kingdom for a time as yet unseen by OUR worldly eyes).

May the peace and the grace of our God be upon us all.

Love

Paul

 

[Brother Paul]

Greeting Sue

I appreciate this post was for Brother Paul, not myself Brother-Paul (Dove icon).

I only reply here to one statement from your message, I hope you don't mind sister.

We do not have to be a Baptist Church denomination to agree with baptism by submersion. There are many church fellowships who do baptism by immersion, in fact we do not have to go to a church fellowship, it can be done in a lake, a pond, a stream, a river, even in the bath at home for those that have one. Providing the heart is right and receptive to God's Word, providing the person understands what is happening, taking place, and it is witnessed it can be done anywhere.

Iceland or Antarctica may be a little cold for sure, but there ways and means.

God knows our heart and sees all things, he even knows the secrets of our heart, he knows what we are going to say before we say it.

Praise the Lord

Bless you

brother-paul

Hello bro...

Amen! My brother James and I were baptized (by immersion) in an old Horse trough, and when that occurred I was instantly healed from a life long Uric Acidosis which had caused multiple passing of Kidney Stones (which has never happened since). I came up out of the waters and threw away my daily meds (Zyloprim) and have never again needed them (my Ph is normal). Just a little testimony....

The grace of God be with you....

 

[Brother-Paul]

It seems we are talking about the difference between the universal body of born-again believers and the Local body of the same.

In the New Testament -- Paul's 3 missionary journeys. Church groups that were formed in Asia and 'we' are given guidelines for the leaders of those local groups. Back in That day, the believers met in homes or whatever was convenient -- outside -- where ever. Thus -- we Do have Scriptural support for the local church groups as well.

The idea Of baptism is to show Publically the decision that has already been made in the person's heart. What is the point of being in a bathroom tub since it would probably be only you and the person baptizing you. I Do know of a father and son who were both saved at basically the same time and felt the need to be baptised 'then and there'. But they were from a background that believed the baptism was necessary to Complete salvation. They baptised each other in the family bathtub. Well -- from a background that did infant sprinkling -- they came to understand the need for baptism by immersion. So That was done immediately.

If a person is not part of a local group of believers -- Who is to determine if the person Does understand baptism and is ready for it. Okay -- you prefer the term 'church fellowship' rather than the concept of a local church. But aren't they - in fact- synonymous

Greeting Sue

Jesus said...

Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV)
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

It doesn't matter where this is done so long as their is a saved person to explain, carry out and pray for the other person who is ready and wants to be baptised.

Matthew 18:20 (NKJV)
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

I would baptise someone in a bath in hospital or at home if that is what they wanted and were ready and understood.

I feel you misunderstood my previous message, I Do know of a father and son who were both saved at basically the same time and felt the need to be baptised 'then and there'. So long as there is a saved soul and another wanting to be baptised it can and should be done.

The Eunuch wanted to be baptised straight away, it can be done, it should be done, our Lord commissioned us to do it.

Jesus said, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, anywhere and everywhere in the world, hot or cold, humid or freezing, swimming baths or bathtub, it can and should be done.

Bless you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hello bro...

Amen! My brother James and I were baptized (by immersion) in an old Horse trough, and when that occurred I was instantly healed from a life long Uric Acidosis which had caused multiple passing of Kidney Stones (which has never happened since). I came up out of the waters and threw away my daily meds (Zyloprim) and have never again needed them (my Ph is normal). Just a little testimony....

The grace of God be with you....

Praise the Lord brother, to God be the Glory.

Horse trough, I like that.

You have just confirmed what I discussed with Sue. Bless you my friend.

Jesus is Lord

 

[Sue D.]

Local New Testament churches were formed and have Been formed for a reason. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are two ordinances of the local church.

Thanks for sharing your testimonies.

 

[Sue D.]

Isn't 'this' supposed to be about homosexuality.

 

[Sue D.]

Or has the topic Of homosexuality run it's course.

 

[KingJ]

I wouldn't call Sheol prison. Sheol was divided into to halves.... Hades (which is still there)... and Paradise/Abraham's Bosom, which might not still be there.
One side was unpleasant place to be. The other side was a seemingly pleasant place to be.
To me... only Hades qualifies as a jail.

Sheol itself was only a "jail" to the righteous in Abraham's until Jesus cleared the way for them to go to heaven.
Like Hades or temporary and the lake of Fire is permanent.
Abrahams Bosom was temporary and heaven/New Jerusalem is permanent. I personally do not believe Abraham's Bosom exists anymore.

I don't think anyone, has been thrown into "Prison" yet (the lake of fire) that will happen at the judgment.

Both Abraham's bosom and the bad side of Hades are places in death. Why are you dodging the question?

I have been trying to help Sue understand the difference between two types of sinners. But you are smothering my simple point with loads and loads of unrelated points.

People could only escape ''death'' after the cross. When God said ''it is done''.