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Homosexuality

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Scripture spoke of John, the disciple Jesus loved, John 13-23. King David also loved Jonathan, 1 Samuel 18 verse 1, here it says that they became one in spirit, this was a spiritual love not a sexual one. David was heterosexual as proved by his lust for Bathsheba. The reason I am writing this is to highlight the love between men. Throughout history we see men forming deep friendships with each other, men go fishing together, play games together, drink together, fight and die together and the love between them is very often deep, yet not in a sexual way. I am convinced that the love between men is often an unspoken love that, for fear of misunderstanding, is made light of and reduced to a lesser importance through the use of banter and merriment, but even so it is the kind of love that will see a soldier weeping, broken- hearted, at the graveside of a lost comrade. I believe that love between men is of God and should be highly revered; however, as we are aware, wherever there is a gift from God we have an enemy that will endeavour to contaminate it. This we see in homosexuality, here we see a gift of God, the powerful love between men, sexualised and brought to shame by Satan, who pollutes all the gifts of God. When homosexual men speak of the love they have for the men their hearts are given to, they speak the truth, and for anyone to deny or denigrate that is to not understand the gift of God at all. That is why the homosexual man can claim that those who decry their love have no understanding, and they are to some degree right, and without the moral compass of scripture, which is now being sidelined in a world where Satan is god, this is indeed understandable. Christians, though, if they read their scriptures, should understand and be able to explain to men, who have been deceived, that the love they have for one another is, when uncontaminated, blessed by God. However, if the gift is made unclean by the act of Sodomy, which is the choice of the person involved, then the penalties that have been warned will be enacted.
 
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Scripture spoke of John, the disciple Jesus loved, John 13-23. King David also loved Jonathan, 1 Samuel 18 verse 1, here it says that they became one in spirit, this was a spiritual love not a sexual one. David was heterosexual as proved by his lust for Bathsheba. The reason I am writing this is to highlight the love between men. Throughout history we see men forming deep friendships with each other, men go fishing together, play games together, drink together, fight and die together and the love between them is very often deep, yet not in a sexual way. I am convinced that the love between men is often an unspoken love that, for fear of misunderstanding, is made light of and reduced to a lesser importance through the use of banter and merriment, but even so it is the kind of love that will see a soldier weeping, broken- hearted, at the graveside of a lost comrade. I believe that love between men is of God and should be highly revered; however, as we are aware, wherever there is a gift from God we have an enemy that will endeavour to contaminate it. This we see in homosexuality, here we see a gift of God, the powerful love between men, sexualised and brought to shame by Satan, who pollutes all the gifts of God. When homosexual men speak of the love they have for the men their hearts are given to, they speak the truth, and for anyone to deny or denigrate that is to not understand the gift of God at all. That is why the homosexual man can claim that those who decry their love have no understanding, and they are to some degree right, and without the moral compass of scripture, which is now being sidelined in a world where Satan is god, this is indeed understandable. Christians, though, if they read their scriptures, should understand and be able to explain to men, who have been deceived, that the love they have for one another is, when uncontaminated, blessed by God. However, if the gift is made unclean by the act of Sodomy, which is the choice of the person involved, then the penalties that have been warned will be enacted.
Interesting points...but many "Christians" might see things differently. Thus, we need the Bible to settle the case for us.
Lev. 18 is pretty straightforward....case closed!
But then, this means that the Torah of Moses still applies to us as Christians, and that's the problem....many Christians refuse to accept this fact.
Thus, many "Christian" churches embrace what they should oppose.
 
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Interesting points...but many "Christians" might see things differently. Thus, we need the Bible to settle the case for us.
Lev. 18 is pretty straightforward....case closed!
But then, this means that the Torah of Moses still applies to us as Christians, and that's the problem....many Christians refuse to accept this fact.
Thus, many "Christian" churches embrace what they should oppose.
Hello Bible guy,
I believe scripture tells us that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This being the case, we have to conclude that the sin of sodomy is, if repented of, forgivable. If we wish to seek to save the souls of the gay community which are caught in the devil's lie, don't you think it wise that we try to understand what the devil has done and use that to undo the lie and so possibly open the eyes of the sinner to see the truth and adjust his relationship to bring it into line with what the Lord would find acceptable. The unsullied love between men.
 
Member
Hello Bible guy,
I believe scripture tells us that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This being the case, we have to conclude that the sin of sodomy is, if repented of, forgivable. If we wish to seek to save the souls of the gay community which are caught in the devil's lie, don't you think it wise that we try to understand what the devil has done and use that to undo the lie and so possibly open the eyes of the sinner to see the truth and adjust his relationship to bring it into line with what the Lord would find acceptable. The unsullied love between men.
Sure, there are many evangelistic options available to us....
Kind of like fishing....different bait catches different fish....
 
Member
Sure, there are many evangelistic options available to us....
Kind of like fishing....different bait catches different fish....
I'll go along with that bible guy, after all we are fishers of men and we have to be shrewd to outwit the enemy, and to outwit him, we have to understand his strategies.
 
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Additional comments and verses regarding marriage between a man and woman, husband and wife as God planned for us, touching on marriage but emphasising more on scripture regarding homosexuality, which can also include lesbianism and all forms of sex outside marriage of a husband and wife...

I also understand that the Books of the Law to be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Below is a list of verses I have been collecting on the subject...

OT First 5 Books

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Gen 19:4-5 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

Gen 19:1-38 is best read in full.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Lev 18:1-20 is best considered in full,
Lev 20:1-21 is also best read in full.

Lev 20:13-16 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon the

There are more verses in these five books that cover Laws Concerning Sexual Immorality and marriage, what is right in God's eyes and what is not.

Other verses in OT

1 Kings 14:24 24 and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

Isaiah 65:2 For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

Ezek 16:49-50 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife. And he went in to her, and the Lord gave her conception, and she bore a son.

Verses in the NT

Matt 19:4-5 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

Rom 1:26-28 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

Rom 1:29-32 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Tim 1:9-10 Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

1 Tim 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

I John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Scripture is clear

Blessings
 
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Scripture spoke of John, the disciple Jesus loved, John 13-23. King David also loved Jonathan, 1 Samuel 18 verse 1, here it says that they became one in spirit, this was a spiritual love not a sexual one. David was heterosexual as proved by his lust for Bathsheba. The reason I am writing this is to highlight the love between men. Throughout history we see men forming deep friendships with each other, men go fishing together, play games together, drink together, fight and die together and the love between them is very often deep, yet not in a sexual way. I am convinced that the love between men is often an unspoken love that, for fear of misunderstanding, is made light of and reduced to a lesser importance through the use of banter and merriment, but even so it is the kind of love that will see a soldier weeping, broken- hearted, at the graveside of a lost comrade. I believe that love between men is of God and should be highly revered; however, as we are aware, wherever there is a gift from God we have an enemy that will endeavour to contaminate it. This we see in homosexuality, here we see a gift of God, the powerful love between men, sexualised and brought to shame by Satan, who pollutes all the gifts of God. When homosexual men speak of the love they have for the men their hearts are given to, they speak the truth, and for anyone to deny or denigrate that is to not understand the gift of God at all. That is why the homosexual man can claim that those who decry their love have no understanding, and they are to some degree right, and without the moral compass of scripture, which is now being sidelined in a world where Satan is god, this is indeed understandable. Christians, though, if they read their scriptures, should understand and be able to explain to men, who have been deceived, that the love they have for one another is, when uncontaminated, blessed by God. However, if the gift is made unclean by the act of Sodomy, which is the choice of the person involved, then the penalties that have been warned will be enacted.
Very good OP Trevor.

I do feel though that it is not that common for an unsaved person to 'truly love'. True love takes selflessness. People showing a desire for such are after God's heart and not a long way off meeting Jesus and converting to Christianity.

An unsaved person can show true love for family. Life time friends. But not a partner. As such I don't believe 'many / if any' homosexual relationship starts with true love.
 
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Sue, bless you,
I never said that homosexuality was a gift of God, I said that the love between men was. Homosexuality is as you say, an abomination to God. I held up as an example of the unsullied love between men, the loves between Jesus and John and David and Jonathan, I also tried to show how Satan contaminates that which is pure and turns it into an abomination. As for the old testament it is, as is the new testament, the written word of God, and to dismiss it, I believe, is to lose out on a wealth of knowledge and understanding.

That, again, is bother-some to me. Why would 'the love between men' be any particular gift from God. There Are several Kinds of love put forth in the Bible. One kind is between husband and wife and one is what God shows towards us.

We love God because He first loved us.

Love is an Action as well as an inner feeling. The inner feelings would bring out the Action of love.

The same thing could be said for womens love for other women. Or a love of a man for a woman that does not culminate in a sexual way.

But not really a gift from God.

Why do you refer to the Old Testamant as the Torah? Why not just call it the Old Testament which Includes the Law and the Prophets. Using the term Torah sounds very Jewish in nature. Unless you Are Jewish. Possibly a Messianic Jew?
 
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Very good OP Trevor.

I do feel though that it is not that common for an unsaved person to 'truly love'. True love takes selflessness. People showing a desire for such are after God's heart and not a long way off meeting Jesus and converting to Christianity.

An unsaved person can show true love for family. Life time friends. But not a partner. As such I don't believe 'many / if any' homosexual relationship starts with true love.

There was a pastor Many years ago who'd been married for years and a Bible college professor. He Finally realized that he'd always had a head knowledge but not a heart's acceptance. Once That took place he had a deeper love for his wife, but all those years of marriage he had definitely loved his wife.

So -- I'd be disagreeing with your comment that an unsaved person isn't Truly loving.

Your time line -- "showing a desire for such are after God's heart and not a long way off meeting Jesus and converting to Christianity. A person converts To Christianity Because they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ Is the Son of God and accept Him as their personal Savior.

There Are many kinds Of love/ a boy 'loves' his dog / we Love our grandparents / we Love our spouce / they are Shown in very different ways.

And Truly Loving another person Sometimes is shown by restraint in Not showing it. I Might get a crush on the neighbor man/ woman -- who is already married -- or might end up falling in love with that person. It's Not Appropriate to Act on those feelings.

so -- even when I'm attracted to the same sex it is Not appropriate to Act on those feelings.
 
Member
That, again, is bother-some to me. Why would 'the love between men' be any particular gift from God. There Are several Kinds of love put forth in the Bible. One kind is between husband and wife and one is what God shows towards us.

We love God because He first loved us.

Love is an Action as well as an inner feeling. The inner feelings would bring out the Action of love.

The same thing could be said for womens love for other women. Or a love of a man for a woman that does not culminate in a sexual way.

But not really a gift from God.
Jesus loved John Sue, Jesus is God and he had a stronger love for John than the others. We are called to hold him up as our example. He had a special love for another man, a spiritual love. I would suggest that to say a love between two men would not be blest is to denigrate the love Jesus had for John. As for the old testament and the Torah. I am not a Jew by birth but I am spiritually as I 'according to scripture' am a branch grafted into the vine, this I believe means that Christians are spiritual Jews. But to argue over scriptural understandings when we are all deciples kneeling at the feet of the Master seems to me pointless. The most important thing is we are saved and if we disagree over some point or other maybe the wisest course of action is to pray for the brother or sister for understanding.


Why do you refer to the Old Testamant as the Torah? Why not just call it the Old Testament which Includes the Law and the Prophets. Using the term Torah sounds very Jewish in nature. Unless you Are Jewish. Possibly a Messianic Jew?
 
Active
There was a pastor Many years ago who'd been married for years and a Bible college professor. He Finally realized that he'd always had a head knowledge but not a heart's acceptance. Once That took place he had a deeper love for his wife, but all those years of marriage he had definitely loved his wife.

So -- I'd be disagreeing with your comment that an unsaved person isn't Truly loving.

Your time line -- "showing a desire for such are after God's heart and not a long way off meeting Jesus and converting to Christianity. A person converts To Christianity Because they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ Is the Son of God and accept Him as their personal Savior.

There Are many kinds Of love/ a boy 'loves' his dog / we Love our grandparents / we Love our spouce / they are Shown in very different ways.

And Truly Loving another person Sometimes is shown by restraint in Not showing it. I Might get a crush on the neighbor man/ woman -- who is already married -- or might end up falling in love with that person. It's Not Appropriate to Act on those feelings.

so -- even when I'm attracted to the same sex it is Not appropriate to Act on those feelings.
No Sue.

The greatest act of love is to lay your life down for someone John 15:13. No greater act of love exists. So to me that is the definition of ''true love''. The love alluded to in the OP.

So to measure ones love we need to consider where we are from now (point A) to laying our lives down for someone (point Z).

To become a Christian we need to meet the depth of intent of Z. That is what Jesus says in Matt 16:24.

I am not suggesting a gay couple cannot fall in love. Of course they can. Please re-read my prior post?
 
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A person converts To Christianity Because they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ Is the Son of God and accept Him as their personal Savior.
This line on its own does just not sit right with me.

It is ''impossible'' for us to call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. You say 'they believed'. 'They' can believe all they want, it means nothing until God is real to them. God gives them faith to believe Rom 12:3. God only does this after He examines our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We only pass His examination if we are able to follow Matt 16:24. People after His heart Rom 12:9, James 4:8, James 1:27, Psalm 51:17.

IE Selfless people. The type that actually want to turn the left cheek for their enemy James 5:44.
 
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A person living a life away from God is showing that he is a selfish person. He does not want to consider God because he wants to do what he wants to do.

Such a person is now going to be '''utterly selfless / capable of true love''? I think not.
 
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This line on its own does just not sit right with me.

It is ''impossible'' for us to call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. You say 'they believed'. 'They' can believe all they want, it means nothing until God is real to them. God gives them faith to believe Rom 12:3. God only does this after He examines our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We only pass His examination if we are able to follow Matt 16:24. People after His heart Rom 12:9, James 4:8, James 1:27, Psalm 51:17.

IE Selfless people. The type that actually want to turn the left cheek for their enemy James 5:44.
Scripture tells us that God chose us, we didn't choose him, he chose us before the earth was made. I don't believe that God would choose us and then not bring that choice to fruition. I believe that chosen believers are born with the propensity to recognise the truth when they meet him, and when they hear the truth they embrace him and the church grows. When I say the church, I mean the living stones that scripture refers to, the stones that when they come together Jesus joins them, I believe that in the last days the church will take that format and the abomination of denomination will continue to fade away.
 
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Scripture tells us that God chose us,
It says we were chosen to be in Christ Eph 1:4. We, being the ''whomsoever'' will accept Him John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life .
 
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Scripture tells us that God chose us, we didn't choose him, he chose us before the earth was made. I don't believe that God would choose us and then not bring that choice to fruition. I believe that chosen believers are born with the propensity to recognise the truth when they meet him, and when they hear the truth they embrace him and the church grows. When I say the church, I mean the living stones that scripture refers to, the stones that when they come together Jesus joins them, I believe that in the last days the church will take that format and the abomination of denomination will continue to fade away.

Trevor -- that which we are Born with is the propensity for Sinning. We are born in a natural state of 'being' -- we need to be born-Again of the Spirit and Then the Holy Spirit works in our hearts. Then we can be reading God's Word and growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God knows who His Elect are -- but His elect Still have to come to Christ.
 
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Trevor -- that which we are Born with is the propensity for Sinning. We are born in a natural state of 'being' -- we need to be born-Again of the Spirit and Then the Holy Spirit works in our hearts. Then we can be reading God's Word and growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God knows who His Elect are -- but His elect Still have to come to Christ.
Are you saying Sue, that we were not chosen before the world was made?
 
Member
It says we were chosen to be in Christ Eph 1:4. We, being the ''whomsoever'' will accept Him John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life .
John 15 v 16
You didn't choose me, but I chose you and I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit. etc.. I know we have to make covenant but in my case that came when the Lord revealed himself to me and I didn't have to think about it, it was as natural as breathing.
 
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Are you saying Sue, that we were not chosen before the world was made?

Yes, we were chosen way back then. But we Still are All born with the propensity For Sinning. A person has to teach a baby to play Nicely. Good does Not come automatically. Elect or Not -- a person Still needs to be born-again.
 
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Romans tells us that to 'be saved' one believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth. That is a conscious decision and choice on our personal part.

How did God reveal Himself to you?
 

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