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As a side-note -- my personal opinion -- a life with no parole sentence Should be changed to death penalty. And That should be carried out quickly.
I would agree with instances where the person is guilty of multiple mortal sins. Like a guy who raped twenty girls and does not want to stop. Such a person we could almost with certainty state he is ''sold out to the darkness'' per John 3:19. Those guilty of once off mortal sins, I don't think so. We can all be guilty of such. David loved God and yet murdered (once) and committed adultery (once I think). But he knew and the people knew, these were sins unto death / deserving of death. His repentance to God had to be very sincere to make amends. Which I believe it was.

This is why I say, mortal sins point to our love of sin. That is my only reason for raising them. I am discerning / judging by fruits as Jesus says I should.

It's the RCC that categorizes all of them into either mortal or venial sins. No one else does.
They have labelled it mortal and venial. Most know it as grievous and non grievous. Any church that teaches you can lose your salvation does by default categorize sin. The church I attend will remove from ''open teaching'' and perhaps if severe, even fellowship anyone guilty of sins like adultery and drugs. Let alone murder and rape.

Then I would also argue, we ''ALL'' categorize sin. Let's say a Christian girl married a Christian guy. The Christian guy thought of adultery. Would she divorce? No. Let's say the Christian guy actually committed adultery, would she divorce? Perhaps. Let's then say the Christian guy, committed adultery with many woman, would she divorce? She should.

Matt 5:28 = thoughts of adultery are sinful.
Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9 = Only divorce if there is actual adultery
 
Active
Do you Also realize that cities of refuge were set aside in the Old Testament. If someone killed another person -- the person Could run to one of those designated cities and find refuge Until their case was heard by the high priest of that particular city. That official would determine if the killing was accidental or on purpose. Everyone In those cities of refuge were safe as long as they stayed inside. And they stayed inside until the high priest died a natural death. If it was a young priest , they were there for a Long time -- if it was an older man -- not so long. But if the accused person Left that city the relatives of the dead person Could take revenge and kill the guy.
I do know that a panel of elders would pass a sentence. It was never one person who was judge, jury and executioner.

In other wards -- it's basically the same thing Now days. Cities of refuge in the Old Testament would be receiving a prison sentence of indetermined length. We have the same thing now -- jail / prison time.
Seems you're trying to mix apples and oranges.
'we' have death penalty crimes // federal and local laws and penalties for breaking them.
What is apples and oranges? Can you be more specific.

And, by the way -- This society has been deciding that certain types of capital punishment are considered to be 'cruel and inhumane ' punishment for criminals. And it Usually takes Years to get a death penalty put into effect. Meaning that a person can be sentenced To death -- but wait 15 yrs or more for it take effect. So, there's really no deterant To crime.
Prison is more then enough of a deterrent. We should always opt away from the death penalty. Paul says in 1 Cor 5 that we should associate with these wicked people. As any wicked people still alive, still have hope.

But Paul also says in 1 Cor 5 that those who call themselves Christians but yet continue in mortal sins, those we should avoid. Not even eat with them.

As a side-note -- my personal opinion -- a life with no parole sentence Should be changed to death penalty. And That should be carried out quickly.
That is pretty harsh. Imagine it was your child in prison. What happened to Matt 5:44 in your life?

Matt 5:44 Love your enemy.
 
Active
I believe that, No one, on earth, has a right to kill another human.

Whether it be abortion, whether it be euthanasia, whether it be any other reason.

Peace be with you
I could not agree more. That desire / love in you for the wicked is God given and Christian wisdom.

God pushed for the death penalty on 'His' people / Jews only as He wanted to make an example of them for us all to see. Nobody reading the bible will ever doubt His utter hatred for the sin of adultery for example. The Jews bore the full curse of the law and enjoyed the full blessings thereof too.

God dealt with gentiles and deals with us today a tad differently in that He waits for us to become ''sold out to sin'' before He takes action. An OT Jew who committed a single sin deserving of the death penalty, may not have been ''sold out'' to sin. A passage like Psalm 51:17 was available to them / is available to all on death row.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
I could not agree more. That desire / love in you for the wicked is God given and Christian wisdom.

God pushed for the death penalty on 'His' people / Jews only as He wanted to make an example of them for us all to see. Nobody reading the bible will ever doubt His utter hatred for the sin of adultery for example. The Jews bore the full curse of the law and enjoyed the full blessings thereof too.

God dealt with gentiles and deals with us today a tad differently in that He waits for us to become ''sold out to sin'' before He takes action. An OT Jew who committed a single sin deserving of the death penalty, may not have been ''sold out'' to sin. A passage like Psalm 51:17 was available to them / is available to all on death row.

The Jews were a chosen race, they were to be an example to the world (Gentiles), that there is only one God, the Living God, that by their example the world (Gentiles) would come to God and believe. But, they disobeyed God and was punished for doing so, over and over again.

There was always a danger that the next generations would become proud and think that God had blessed them because they were better than previous generations and they did. Moses reminded them that all their blessings came from the Lord because of His covenant with their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (NKJV)
4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

God hates ALL sin, Why?

Because sin is not doing what God has commanded us to do, sin is doing what God has commanded us not to do.

Lord forgive us, in Jesus Name. Amen
 
Active
@KingJ -- you said you're Not RCC -- your defending them so strongly. Your 'thing' with mortal / venial sins. Instead of refering to either of those catagories -- why not simply name the law that's being broken.

What church Do you attend?

sins -- those actions are Crimes -- against the law. Those people would be arrested -- put in prison. They would profit by attending prison chapel.

Adultery and drugs -- Sins? of Course they are -- but usually involve a lot more than 'sin'

Grievous / non-grievouos -- same idea. Name the activity that the person is guilty of.

The comment I was making about 'apples and oranges' was meaning that two or more concepts are being talked about. Mixed together.

You simply have some odd concepts that I have trouble 'keeping up with'.

I have to excuse myself for a while -- other things to do this morning.
 
Active
I do know that a panel of elders would pass a sentence. It was never one person who was judge, jury and executioner.


What is apples and oranges? Can you be more specific.



Prison is more then enough of a deterrent. We should always opt away from the death penalty. Paul says in 1 Cor 5 that we should associate with these wicked people. As any wicked people still alive, still have hope.

But Paul also says in 1 Cor 5 that those who call themselves Christians but yet continue in mortal sins, those we should avoid. Not even eat with them.

That is pretty harsh. Imagine it was your child in prison. What happened to Matt 5:44 in your life?

Matt 5:44 Love your enemy.

If prisons Were enough of a deterant why are there still people breaking the laws that Send them to prison. Unfortunately -- these days -- it Might be a roof over the person's head and three meals a day and health care provided. Jails / prisons Also provide a library -- a better life than some people have who are 'out on the streets'.

BTW -- you just said that I was sounding harsh about 'what if it were My child in prison facing the death penalty' As it happens -- I Am facing some difficult decisions With my younger of two sons. Mental health issues.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now.
 
Active
@KingJ -- you said you're Not RCC -- your defending them so strongly. Your 'thing' with mortal / venial sins. Instead of refering to either of those catagories -- why not simply name the law that's being broken.
:what: Some laws that were broken resulted in a punishment of being ''stoned'' to ''DEATH''. Other laws broken resulted in God making them childless. Other laws, burnt at the sake. Then other laws, excommunication. Then other laws, a warning. Then other laws, nothing but encouragement to attend meetings regularly and keep repenting / sacrificing.

Then we have Paul telling us to judge matters better then the unsaved 1 Cor 6:1-9 and saying we will one-day judge even angels 1 Cor 6:3.

I just feel sorry for the angel you judge one-day. That poor fella. ''All I did was steal candy''. ''So what, sin is sin, go get 25 beatings and spend 25 years in prison, you wicked wicked angel''. :what:

You have cocooned your mind. The truth is staring you in the face and you just can't take it.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Greeting brother & sister in Christ,

The Old Testament is as important as the New Testament, but Jesus changed a few things, this does not make the OT irrelevant, but we must note the differences.

God ruled, with what seems an iron stick approach. We see the Blessings the Jews received when they obeyed God's commands, we see, as you rightly say the punishments that God dealt them. I feel so much for the Jews, punished by man, punished by God, and punished quite harshly at times (It may seem).

But then the Christ came, love came down at Christmas we say, and it certainly did. But Jesus came to save those who were lost, and God showed His love in a different way, 'For God so Loved the world he had created...' Everything Jesus did and said was based on Love, the Father's Love, his message from start to finish is base on Love, his instructions to Jews and Gentiles alike are based on Love.

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Luke 6:27-31 (NKJV)
27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.
29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.
30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.
31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

And many more verses as we know. But what about the Law?

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

We are saved by Grace through Faith, but this does not abolish the Law. We are in the age of God's Grace, we are also in the age of His Love through Jesus.

The Law is not abolished, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

This tells me the Law will remain until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law, but...

Then the Christ came. Jesus came to save those who were lost, God showed His love in a different way, 'For God so Loved the world he had created...' Everything Jesus did and said was based on Love, the Father's Love, his message from start to finish is base on Love, his instructions to Jews and Gentiles alike are based on Love.

And it is all included here...

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The Law still applies but is based on 'The New Commandment' LOVE.

Thou shalt not, still applies, the Law still applies based on Love, so stoning to death and similar OT commands are no longer acceptable, they cannot be done in Love.

Because the Father and the Son love us with an infinite and perfect love, and because we cannot see what they see and know. They have given us laws that will guide us, protect us and reveal sin to us, so that we may seek to become righteous.

There is a strong connection between God’s love and His laws, there is a strong connection between Jesus' Commands of the Fathers Love for one another and the laws. I feel that the Law makes more sense when seen in the eyes of Love, when seen in the eyes of God through Jesus.

Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Shalom
 
Active
:what: Some laws that were broken resulted in a punishment of being ''stoned'' to ''DEATH''. Other laws broken resulted in God making them childless. Other laws, burnt at the sake. Then other laws, excommunication. Then other laws, a warning. Then other laws, nothing but encouragement to attend meetings regularly and keep repenting / sacrificing.

Then we have Paul telling us to judge matters better then the unsaved 1 Cor 6:1-9 and saying we will one-day judge even angels 1 Cor 6:3.

I just feel sorry for the angel you judge one-day. That poor fella. ''All I did was steal candy''. ''So what, sin is sin, go get 25 beatings and spend 25 years in prison, you wicked wicked angel''. :what:

You have cocooned your mind. The truth is staring you in the face and you just can't take it.

I was just looking up about believers one day judging angels. There's some question as to what that means. Some believe that in the future -- believers will be 'higher' than the angelic world and judging the actions of the angelic world or maybe just the fallen angels -- the demonic world.

In any case -- your reaction sounds like from a RCC perspective -- going to confession and after confessing your sins for that day or week -- being told to say a certain number of 'Hail Marry's' and whatever else to 'take care of' those sins.

So -- your suggesting that the angel assigned to me only 'stole some candy -- he didn't try to kill another angel' so I'm going to be a real mean believer and Really make that angel Suffer. SO -- from the RCC concept -- what the angel did was only a venial sin and doesn't really deserve 25 beatings and 25 yrs. in prison,. Then the question could be -- what constitutes "a beating". OR why 25 and not 3 and why 25 yrs. in prison, why not 3. AND -in the RCC church -- what exactly is accomplished by a person saying the Rosary or 'Hail Mary' 5 or 25 or Any number of 'times'. And shouldn't the confession to the priest be enough?

And, yes, the stoning was meant to continue until the person was non-responsive -- Dead.

Well -- the RCC excommunicates -- Scripture teaches church disciple and gives instructions for that. It's meant to restore the person to fellowship.

""You have cocooned your mind. The truth is staring you in the face and you just can't take it""
 
Active
Greeting brother & sister in Christ,

The Old Testament is as important as the New Testament, but Jesus changed a few things, this does not make the OT irrelevant, but we must note the differences.

God ruled, with what seems an iron stick approach. We see the Blessings the Jews received when they obeyed God's commands, we see, as you rightly say the punishments that God dealt them. I feel so much for the Jews, punished by man, punished by God, and punished quite harshly at times (It may seem).

But then the Christ came, love came down at Christmas we say, and it certainly did. But Jesus came to save those who were lost, and God showed His love in a different way, 'For God so Loved the world he had created...' Everything Jesus did and said was based on Love, the Father's Love, his message from start to finish is base on Love, his instructions to Jews and Gentiles alike are based on Love.

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Luke 6:27-31 (NKJV)
27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.
29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.
30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.
31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

And many more verses as we know. But what about the Law?

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

We are saved by Grace through Faith, but this does not abolish the Law. We are in the age of God's Grace, we are also in the age of His Love through Jesus.

The Law is not abolished, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

This tells me the Law will remain until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law, but...

Then the Christ came. Jesus came to save those who were lost, God showed His love in a different way, 'For God so Loved the world he had created...' Everything Jesus did and said was based on Love, the Father's Love, his message from start to finish is base on Love, his instructions to Jews and Gentiles alike are based on Love.

And it is all included here...

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The Law still applies but is based on 'The New Commandment' LOVE.

Thou shalt not, still applies, the Law still applies based on Love, so stoning to death and similar OT commands are no longer acceptable, they cannot be done in Love.

Because the Father and the Son love us with an infinite and perfect love, and because we cannot see what they see and know. They have given us laws that will guide us, protect us and reveal sin to us, so that we may seek to become righteous.

There is a strong connection between God’s love and His laws, there is a strong connection between Jesus' Commands of the Fathers Love for one another and the laws. I feel that the Law makes more sense when seen in the eyes of Love, when seen in the eyes of God through Jesus.

Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Shalom

It's a lot like being a parent and having children. We set down 'laws' for the household to run smoothly -- and laws / guidelines for our kids to follow. For their own health and well-being. But in the Big pictures --it's really a good relationship we want with our kids. We teach them early on to 'look both ways before crossing the street to see if a car is coming' -- the car might not see Us, but We can look and see the car coming. Stopping at the corner Might just save our life. and when our kids were really small -- we held their hand To make sure they were okay Before they understood the reason For it.

And That's also why parents are Supposed to be outside With their kids -- supervising their play time. Do NOT hit your sister or brother -- do Not run out into the street to get the ball that rolled out there. Look for cars Before going to catch that ball. The car can't see you but you can see the car and the ball. Eventually -- the child grows up and is responsible for their own actions. Parents need to be teaching their kids that there Are consequences to decisions -- we teach them God's Word -- the 'thou shalt nots' and Why they are not supposed to do those things. They are Not pleasing To God. And we continue to teach them God's salvation. And after a while -- They will be responsible for their decision to accept or reject God's salvation.
 

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