Happy Saturnalia Everyone!

[Davy]

At this time of the year many celebrate December 25 as Christ's birth, but historical evidence shows Jesus was very unlikely to have been born on this day.

The World Book Encyclopedia states: "No one knows the exact date of Christ’s birth."

The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus observes: "The flocks .　.　. passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields." (Luke 2:8-11)

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia notes: "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of New Testament origin."

The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: "Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime." Making wreaths of holly or other evergreens is another popular Christmas tradition. This too is deeply rooted in pagan worship. Ancient Romans used holly branches to adorn temples during Saturnalia, a seven-day midwinter festival devoted to Saturn, the god　of agriculture. This pagan festival was especially noted for its unrestrained revelry and licentiousness.

So, as many will be engaging in festivities that have nothing to do with Christ's birth or the bible, I thought I would at lest be as truthful as possible and call it what it really is--Happy Saturnalia!!!

 

[Hekuran]

25 December has a 1/365 chance of being the correct date. Nobody knows the true date of Jesus' birth. Nevertheless December is a perfect time to celebrate God taking on flesh (for those of us in the Northern hemisphere at least). Just as everything is at its darkest and most bleak, God breaks in and begins something utterly surprising and new. That is what happened when God's people were oppressed by the might of the Roman Empire and a corrupt priesthood. It is good to remember this when the sun creeps above the horizon after I arrive at work and sinks before I leave.

I have absolutely no interest in Saturnalia or any other pagan roots. If you don't want to bother with a festive tree, that's fine. For me, the evergreen tree decorated with lights is a symbol of the promise of everlasting life and a light that shines in the darkness and will never be extinguished. If pagans mean something else by it, that's their business.

Christmas time is a gift - we have a special opportunity to reflect in wonder at God's grace and great love in choosing to enter this world as a humble child. Let's concentrate on what is good and noble and holy, not get too hung up on details.

Happy Christmas!

 

[Hekuran]

Or - while I am on a roll - remember that the Magi who came to worship Christ were guided by the pagan practice of astrology.

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” (Matthew 2.1-2)

Surely one of the messages in this part of the story is that what is important is not what brings you to Christ, but how you worship him. Somehow pagan mystics from a foreign culture hundreds of miles away saw and understood, while the chief priests and teachers of the law equipped with great learning in the scriptures missed when it was right under their noses.

Happy Christmas!

 

[macca]

Hekuran, according to the presenter of "the Star of Bethlehem" dec 25th was the date the Magi arrived at the "house" they were staying at. Jesus was a toddler (Greek word translated as child).
As for Pagan astrology, I suggest you view the DVD, maybe it will change your view somewhat.

 

[Dovegiven]

Upon agreeing to use the Gregorian Calendar system, and the names of the days of the week, and names of months, one is using leftover naming based on pagan gods, astrology, and the like. The problem was and remains that many religions were birthed long before Christianity, there being no good way to change how the whole world reckons time. The Roman Empire most directly influenced it all, and it remains so today. It took till the 4th century AD for Christian influences to end the popularity of Saturnalia, that name for a holiday long forgotten except in encyclopedias and perhaps among a tiny minority of haters of anything most Christians enjoy. "Christmas" has been around much longer than the whole of the Roman Empire and their accepted religions, celebrated by billions of people for the continuing main commonly held purpose centered around a time for celebrating the birth of Jesus. I think it's really impressive that citizens of earth have remained connected through one cherished day of the year. The Devil didn't get to name it for ever.

BTW, domesticated sheep develop a heavy winter coat to handle being in the field in winter months, like their wild cousins. Shepherds still retain flock management habits much like in ancient times, though today might sit in a Jeep rather than stand leaning on a staff.

Happy Christmas.
Jim

 

[B-A-C]

Well, we can get a little closer than365 days, within a month or two I think.

Luk 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
Luk 1:29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
Luk 1:30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
Luk 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Luk 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."
Luk 1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 "And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.


[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: right"]אֱלוּל
[/TD]
[TD]ʼĔlūl
[/TD]
[TD] This is the sixth month of the Hebrew calender. Now what we don't know for sure is how long after the angel visited Mary became pregnant, but assume it was probably immediately afterward, possibly that night even. Assuming a 9 month term, this would put Jesus birth in either
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: right"]
[/TD]
[TD]Nīsān or ʼIyyār
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

just thought id add Jesus wasnt impressed with the rightious or the legalistic of the time ..in fact he was quite put out at them..for they were so busy about thier own agendas they didnt know Christ was among them..blind in thier own works and form of rightiouness...How ever we today are in the same boat ..we spend so much time debating mute facts that we miss the pourpose .To take salvation to the nations ..what is worth our effort, breath and time other than Christ ....! in love Rev

 

[revbrad]

Romans 14:

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[macca]

B.A.C., the context of Luke 1: 26 refers to the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, not the calendar month.

 

[will]

So, as many will be engaging in festivities that have nothing to do with Christ's birth or the bible, I thought I would at lest be as truthful as possible and call it what it really is--Happy Saturnalia!!!

And what would be gained by this "truthfulness" ?
We as Christians, celebrate our Lord's coming to this earth. Not because it is commanded, but because we love and honor Him. Pick one day, any day, it matters little for in fact, we ought to celebrate Him everyday.

But for non-Christians, those people whom we are commissioned to share the Gospel with, December 25th is one time during the year in which they are reminded of Christ. Thus making it one short window of time for us Christians to be bold and sure about what it is that we believed.

Of course the date itself does not matter, if it is associated with some ancient pagan ceremony, that's has no bearings on what we as Christians celebrate. And I believe we need to make it clear to anyone whom we encounter.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Every year there are Christians raising dust about the celebrating of Christmas. Each and every day of the year is dedicated to some pagan god or another. This being the case, following the logic of these Christians, there is no day that Christians can rightfully celebrate JESUS. These people must keep in mind, however, that we, as Christians, have dominion in the Earth, not pagans. As children of the Most High, we are the ones who say what is legal in the Earth,
[h=3]Matthew 16:19[/h] Amplified Bible (AMP)

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth [a]must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [b]must be what is already loosed in heaven.(A)

and all things are lawful for us.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.



We are the children of GOD. We are the righteousness of GOD in the anointing. We have dominion in the Earth, so we call the shots. If we choose to celebrate Jesus who is to say we cannot?

 

[Davy]

Hi Hekuran, So you think we should, to quote you "concentrate on what is good and noble and holy, not get too hung up on details."

That is an interesting point of view, after all as a bible student, I tend to go along with what the bible has to say on matters. So you mentioned what is good, noble and holy! Did you know the Jews in Jesus' day did not celebrate birthdays because it was a pagan practice that had its roots in frightening demons away from the birthday person. This "unholy" pagan practice was contemptible to the Jews, so they refused to have anything to do with celebrating birthdays.

Further, No where in the bible are we commanded to celebrate his birthday on a annual basis, in fact the only birthdays mentioned in the bible, were being celebrated by pagan kings. No where in the gospels does Paul mention celebrating Jesus' birth, only his death as part of a respectful memorial meal. So disregarding this point of view from the bible and doing what ever makes one feel happy, cannot be all "noble" as it is not in line with the bible.

Finally, if a festivity is dripping with pagan and occult paraphernalia, and based on a lie, that is taught to children, that Jesus was born on Christmas day. No matter how you dress this up, it certainly in not holy--something this is pure, clean and truthful, because it simple is not, if you want to consider the facts. After all, if we are not going to follow what the bible says, why not just "forget the details" and make up stuff that makes us feel happy and do that!!!

Hey, don't shoot the messenger, I am just telling you what the bible has to say and many bible scholars and historians.

 

[Strypes]

Matthew 1: 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel"which means, God with us.

I have a theory....


I am aware that December 25th is probably NOT the actual day of Jesus' birth.

My understanding is that the first recorded date of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th was in 336AD, during the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine and a few years later, Pope Julius I officially declared that the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on the 25th December.

Whether or not their intent was to honor God is not for me to judge, but I believe a more "profound" time of year would be in the fall during Sukkot (the feast of tabernacles/booths) which celebrates God's presence with the people of Israel during their time in the wilderness.

Because we are commanded to rejoice during the holiday of Sukkot for the blessing of God's provision and care for our lives (Deut. 16:14-15), it is considered especially important to give tzedakah (charity) during this time of year.

(source: hebrew4christians)

Those Angels on the hillside rejoiced!

 

[Strypes]

Additional thought:

The day doesn't matter, what we celebrate does matter.

As Christians, December 25th is the day we have chosen to commemorate the birth of our Savior. The fact that Jesus was born and God became flesh for the purpose of redeeming mankind in the flesh is why we rejoice. So Go! Shout it from the Mountains that JESUS CHRIST IS BORN!

(all caps.. shouting! GLORY!)

 

[Strypes]

Sorry but I must say this too..

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult that demonizes Christmas.

They do not celebrate any holiday, not even Mother's Day or Resurrection Sunday. They only celebrate one day, 14 Nissan. That date in the Jewish calendar is the first day of Passover. They celebrate the day Jesus died. The way they celebrate it is to have a celebration (called "The Memorial") in which they reject the elements of communion. They literally "pass the cup" without partaking (the bread too). So in essence, their "celebration" is a total rejection of Jesus' sacrifice which they claim to be honoring.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

[h=3]Colossians 2:16-17
[/h]King James Version (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[farout]

Davy: You have spent some time investigaiting what we now celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, The only Son of God!

But Davy what alarms me is that you have spent a good amount of time researching Christmas, but you are going to a cult that rejects Jesus Christ as The ONLY SON OF GOD. Jehovahs Whitness not only reject Christmas, but have have twisted the honest Biblical record of Jesus Christ. The New World Translation destorted their translation as a deliberate action to deceive people to join their cult. It would be far better for your spiritual well being to go to a Christian Bible believing church wher you canhere and read the real Gospel of Jesus Christ. The very fact is those who reject Jesus Christ and His divinity and that He is part of the Godhead, Trinity, they are and will end in eternal Hell, punishment for eternity. Please leave the JW cult as fast as you can.

 

[bgsda]

As the Bible say" My people perish for a lack of knowledge". Why celebrate a pagan man made day. All you Christ fearing brothers and sisters why be conformed to this world? WHY?. If you wanna really know i believe you all have google go to it type in origin of christmas.

Remember God winks at your ignorance, not willingly ignorance there is no such thing. You can find out the truth. Just for that you are held accountable. What a deceiver is the devil, he couldnt get Jesus to sin so he is going after His children. Please lets stand up for Jesus as the disciples and reformers did. No matter what. They stood up and were burned, sawn in two, drowned, chewed up by lions, etc. What we are afraid of, being told we are weird, being called names, who cares. Lets staand up gor Jesus and spread this false holiday. Too much confusion or Babylonian doctrines being mingled in Christ churches. Read Rev. 14:8-11 to find out the outcome if you guys cont and accept more Babylonian or confusion causing doctrines.

I care and love everyome here, all those millions of people that shed their blood for not giving in to false doctrines or pagan practices. So they died in vain, who cares right. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs and then tell me oh its a day to do good and gibe out gifts. Whats wrong with that? Or compromising and saying so when was Jesus born who knows so lets put His Birthday with the other Gods. Think of what you are doing. Had to let this out cause its creeping in to my church too, so sad. Thank God a wise man told me KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS! PEOPLE WILL FAIL YOU! KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS!

 

[bgsda]

Im with you Davy. Good thread maybe some will be stirred by the Holy Spirit to stand on truth. We have to keep them in prayer as well.

 

[Dovegiven]

Circumstances let us be late setting up our home to reflect a traditional Christmas season. Our grand-daughters age 6 and 8 pointed our forgetfulness out, prompting me to retrieve all 11 Christmas tubs from the attic. The unpacking of them was a holiday in itself for two children mostly deprived of connections to the "Reason for the Season", both of them challenging their school's attitude of "Holiday Season" without Jesus in the center of it.

Their first mission was to find the Nativity Scene box among the plastic storage tubs, and set that up. Next came the search for the Angel tub. They have enacted the whole of Luke's account of the great event, each holding their favorite angel. Each Christmas those precious girls reenact the greatest story with increasing glamor and excitement. Already my wife and I have read to them the Luke account twice and it isn't even Christmas Day yet. We delight day by day how they delight over the meaning of every little piece of those displays. The visual aids have definitely helped them learn. I can only feel sorrow for anyone spending what I consider a very empty Christmas season simply because someone has convinced them of some pagan influence about it.

To all those willing to receive with thanksgiving, enjoy a very Merry Christmas in Jesus' lap. That means becoming like a small child full of hope, giving up adult "sovereignty' at least for a little season.
Jim