Gehenna Hell - The punishment of the wicked knows no end!

Your post is there. I'll respond when I have a minute

Thanks so much!

 

[Butch5]

Thanks so much!

You're welcome!

 

[Butch5]

I actually just joined this forum after following this thread a little and took awhile to join in. I don't see a direct reference to the word "spiritual death" however, If someone can be alive physically and still be said to be dead even while they are living it's certainly implied.

For example here,

1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The verse wouldn't be talking about that person being dead (carnally so) but spiritually so.

Because we know that the body itself without its own spirit is dead (physically so) whereas in the above example that woman (even as it pertains to
her body) is still living even while the same woman is said to be dead while she is.

And without further explanation the verse itself makes evident the kind of dead it is not speaking of, which is not of the carnal/natural/physical kind
of dead (as it pertains to her living fleshly body). It implies she is dead (spiritually so) even while she yet lives (physically so) in the body (both in/after the flesh).

The words "dead while she liveth" rules out the obvious, that it's not speaking of her physical life being distinguished (or body as being dead).
It seems to be a perfect example of someone said to be physically alive (in the flesh and walking after it) but spiritually dead (and not according to the Spirit)

Another example can be noted in Mat 8:21

When one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and "Let the dead bury their dead".

We know that physically dead people cannot bury other physically dead people, but spiritually dead people (who can be dead while they liveth)
can bury physically dead people.

A spiritually dead person (who can be alive in th flesh) could bury a physically dead person (who is dead according to the flesh).
The one dead (spiritually so) could bury the other dead (carnally so). It's really the nature of the kind of dead a person might be. So if its not
speaking of dead (carnally speaking) its speaking spiritually as it relates to the nature of dead.

There would be no need to contend over literalness of either kind of "dead" seeing that one can be physicaly dead (literally so) even as the other
can be spiritually dead (just as literally so) and even while they still live (literally so).

Just adding this for consideration.

I agree it could imply spiritual death if spiritual death was a real thing. As you mentioned, it's not found in Scripture, thus is it not a Scriptural concept. It seems to me then that the logical thing to do is to understand dead in these passages as a metaphor. This would fit Paul's writing as he uses dead as a metaphor all through his writings. For instance, in one instance he said, "I die daily" Well, he didn't literally die. Are we to understand that he died spiritually every day? Or should we understand him tobe using the statement as a metaphor for his putting aside his own desires to fulfill his calling in Christ? I think we can agree on the latter. He also said, 'I was alive without the Law once, but when the Law came, I died. Are we to understand that Paul was spiritually alive but when the Law came, he died spiritually? Or should we understand him as using dead as a metaphor for the condemnation that came when he understood the Law which convicted him of sin? I think it's pretty clear in both of these instances Paul is using dead as a metaphor. Since Paul uses dead as a metaphor quite often, why wouldn't this be our first assumption rather than going to a concept that not only isn't in Scripture but isn't even possible. Man is not a spirit, so how could he be spiritually dead? You referenced James, 'the body without the spirit is dead'. The spirit here is the breath of life that God puts in man. Without the breath of life the body is dead. However, the breath of life is not man, it is something of God.

The Greek and Hebrew words translated spirit literally mean wind and by extension breath. Spirit is a figurative meaning of these words. That means when we see the word spirit in Scripture it's a figure of speech. As such, we should seek to understand what the figure of speech means. These Greek and Hebrew words do not mean a disembodied consciousness. They mean wind. That raises the question if these words mean wind or breath, what is windual or breathual death?

 

I agree it could imply spiritual death if spiritual death was a real thing. As you mentioned, it's not found in Scripture, thus is it not a Scriptural concept. It seems to me then that the logical thing to do is to understand dead in these passages as a metaphor. This would fit Paul's writing as he uses dead as a metaphor all through his writings. For instance, in one instance he said, "I die daily" Well, he didn't literally die. Are we to understand that he died spiritually every day? Or should we understand him tobe using the statement as a metaphor for his putting aside his own desires to fulfill his calling in Christ? I think we can agree on the latter. He also said, 'I was alive without the Law once, but when the Law came, I died. Are we to understand that Paul was spiritually alive but when the Law came, he died spiritually? Or should we understand him as using dead as a metaphor for the condemnation that came when he understood the Law which convicted him of sin? I think it's pretty clear in both of these instances Paul is using dead as a metaphor. Since Paul uses dead as a metaphor quite often, why wouldn't this be our first assumption rather than going to a concept that not only isn't in Scripture but isn't even possible. Man is not a spirit, so how could he be spiritually dead? You referenced James, 'the body without the spirit is dead'. The spirit here is the breath of life that God puts in man. Without the breath of life the body is dead. However, the breath of life is not man, it is something of God.

The Greek and Hebrew words translated spirit literally mean wind and by extension breath. Spirit is a figurative meaning of these words. That means when we see the word spirit in Scripture it's a figure of speech. As such, we should seek to understand what the figure of speech means. These Greek and Hebrew words do not mean a disembodied consciousness. They mean wind. That raises the question if these words mean wind or breath, what is windual or breathual death?

Paul saying that he died daily would never be understood to mean he died and needs to go to a morgue on an every day basis.
Most will die just once after the flesh in that manner.

People can die daily through the Spirit by putting to death the deeds of the body in to live.

Dead being spiritual in nature there is just saying that it is not speaking about death in the carnal manner of it (meaning, it has nothing to do with being buried 6 feet under)

Man being alive in the flesh (pertains as much to his own spirit) as being alive in Jesus Christ pertains to the Holy Spirit

Starting at the beginning and the breath of life in man

His breath and the first man becoming a living soul

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That same breath is also called "their breath" when its taken away they die and return to their dust

Psalm 104:39 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Likewise the sons of men and beasts all have one breath, as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath just as it says here

Ecc 3:11 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other;
yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

So how many breaths?

In the above it states one breath, " they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast"

In otherwords both you and your cat and dog have one breath/spirit and we see

In John 20:22 He (Jesus) breathed on them (which all had one breath already), and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God)

And so by breath once again (through the last man Jesus Christ) these by the same have received the Spirit of God.

Likewise, the Spirit of God beareth witness with our own spirit

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

Theres a spirit of man and a spirit of God and the Spirit of God bears witness with ours

So you can be dead in sins, and dead in the ground its often specific as to what it is either speaking of or not speaking of

I had emailed the board to cancel my membership I was a bit too hasty in joining, I'm not really a forum person anymore and not too sure how long that will take but I will likely not be able to answer once I am either deleted or banned
I don't know how they do this, but I wanted to let you know in advance.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I actually just joined this forum after following this thread a little and took awhile to join in. I don't see a direct reference to the word "spiritual death" however, If someone can be alive physically and still be said to be dead even while they are living it's certainly implied.

“Spiritual death” is an oxymoron. Spirit, either the Holy Spirit or evil spirits, simply cannot deteriorate and decompose like the body, it cannot just cease to exist in this world, therefore those evil spirit will be cast into the Lake of Fire and tortured forever as told in Rev. 20. Holy Spirit, on the other hand, as the third person of the Trinity, cannot die either. It dwells and empowers God’s people. If somebody looks like a zombie with no spirit, then they probably have never had any spirit.

 

“Spiritual death” is an oxymoron. Spirit, either the Holy Spirit or evil spirits, simply cannot deteriorate and decompose like the body, it cannot just cease to exist in this world, therefore those evil spirit will be cast into the Lake of Fire and tortured forever as told in Rev. 20. Holy Spirit, on the other hand, as the third person of the Trinity, cannot die either. It dwells and empowers God’s people. If somebody looks like a zombie with no spirit, then they probably have never had any spirit.

It's not "death of the Spirit" but "the nature of" the death.

The Spirit does not deteriorate or decompose without the body, I never said that. The body will without the spirit (or in other words the body that is dead without the spirit) even the spirit of a man. So he would be dead carnally speaking. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is given to us in Christ does not deteriorate or decompose if He departs from anyone either, never said that either (just clarifying). But the Spirit of the LORD could depart from someone (even though they may retain their own spirit) and continue living in the body (while being dead) , or dead while they live. The nature of dead (as it pertains to this) is spiritual.

Its us who can die spiritually and or physically, whether that comes about by the removal of Holy Spirit or our own spirit, it pertains to the nature of the death but as it pertains to ourselves.

Not anything to do with a dead spirit on either of those levels.

 

My post isnt posting, seems some go through some need approval

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

My post isnt posting, seems some go through some need approval

I've read your post even though it's not displaying somehow, and I've just gotta say that, the biblical definition of life is given in Gen. 2:7 - God breathed life into the body formed from dust, and that breath of God is the spirit. "Spirit" also means "breath" and "wind" in both Hebrew and Greek, it enters the body at the first cry and departs from the body at death, and it does NOT depart from the body in between. You can't die spiritually and still live physically because you can't live without breathing. When the spirit does leave, the body fails to function, that's actually how opioid kills - by shutting down the respiratory system, just giving an example, and that's the nature of death.

 

[Br. Bear]

My post isnt posting, seems some go through some need approval

Greetings,

some posts get 'caught' by filters and need approving. Often it is something simple like a link or certain words that are commonly known to be used for spam etc and the filters 'grab' them.

Being here at TalkJesus is good for learning patience, sometimes, even when we think we have patience sorted.... not saying you lack it.

Jesus is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Its not coming together for me fully yet but here is wisdom and understanding and how it can also apply to some of what you have shown

Job 28:28 And unto man he said,
Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Even as we are told,
Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Even as similiar can be shown here
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Even as it speaks of "here is wisdom" and as it pertains to understanding this way in relation to what you might be trying to show

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

But how if at all would this at all fit given the similarity of the one who sits name here being death as well

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I tried to keep the highlighting in sinc with yours, how'd I do? lol

The wisdom and understanding into the many mysteries found in God’s Word comes from God as a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 2:6
For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouthcometh knowledge and understanding.

Luke 21:15
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gain say nor resist.

James 1:5-6

King James Version

​

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is givenby the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

I've read your post even though it's not displaying somehow, and I've just gotta say that, the biblical definition of life is given in Gen. 2:7 - God breathed life into the body formed from dust, and that breath of God is the spirit. "Spirit" also means "breath" and "wind" in both Hebrew and Greek, it enters the body at the first cry and departs from the body at death, and it does NOT depart from the body in between. You can't die spiritually and still live physically because you can't live without breathing. When the spirit does leave, the body fails to function, that's actually how opioid kills - by shutting down the respiratory system, just giving an example, and that's the nature of death.

Hi Jonathan_Gale,

The Spirit of God departed from Saul while he was yet in the body and can live on. So people can live on earth (in the body) even as the animals do without the Holy Spirit and just in the one breath given men and beasts to sustain their physical bodies,

Same verse between both testaments OT word Spirit is Ruwach and NT word for Spirit is Pnuema

OT Hewbrew soul (nephesh ) and spirit (ruwach )

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
in whom my soul (nephesh ) delighteth; I have put my spirit (ruwach ) upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

NT Greek soul (psyche ) and spirit (pneuma)

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen;
my beloved, in whom my soul (psyche ) is well pleased: I will put my spirit (pneuma) upon him,
and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Comparing the same verse between them, then showing the difference between the two spirits (pnuemas) here

NT Greek The Spirit of God and spirit of man

The Spirit (pnuema) of God and the spirit (pnuema) of man here in one verse

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit (pnuema) of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit (pnuema) of God.

I have already posted that James states that the body without the spirit is dead (even ones own spirit)

Because there are people who have not the Spirit of God walking around (in a living body) who are dead (spiritually so)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Notice those who belong to Christ have his Spirit and those who do not (and who are still living on earth in the flesh) do not have have his Spirit

They only have their own spirit (or the spirit of a man) not Spirit of God. This is speaking of the natural man

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just as someone can be blind spiritually so or spiritually speaking and yet live on in the physical body having a healthy set of physical eyes
(which have 20/20 vision) same sort of thing. Same with ears that hear, someone can have a healthy set of physical ears on them and be
spiritually deaf because they don't have spiritual ears that hear what the Spirit is saying. Therefore cannot be spoken to as unto spiritual yet
but only as unto carnal because the natural man (or yet carnal man) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God who teaches us to compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Its the nature of the kind of dead its speaking of, just as it would be the nature of blindness and/or deafness.

Its just a simple acknowledgement in a word that the deadness spoken of is not carnal in nature (and by that I mean physical/carnal alone)
while still acknowledging (on another level) being yet carnal is actually a spiritual condition and that when thus minded (in ourselves)
is also called death (and emnity against God) just as to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I hope those verses help clarify things a little more

 

The wisdom and understanding into the many mysteries found in God’s Word comes from God as a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 2:6
For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouthcometh knowledge and understanding.

Luke 21:15
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gain say nor resist.

James 1:5-6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is givenby the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Thanks for the verses

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I hope those verses help clarify things a little more

No, it does not. I’m afraid you missed the nature of the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of TRUTH (John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13). Life giving and sustaining is just the basic, that applies for all men, Christians and heathens alike; while truth revealing is a new and unique component for Christians who are born again in that Spirit of truth. It opens your eyes and presents you facts and evidence that lead you to Christ. Those who are possessed by evil spirits in advance, however, will reject the truth, they’ll prefer a lying narrative, an illusion rather than the truth.

 

No, it does not. I’m afraid you missed the nature of the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of TRUTH (John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13). Life giving and sustaining is just the basic, that applies for all men, Christians and heathens alike; while truth revealing is a new and unique component for Christians who are born again in that Spirit of truth. It opens your eyes and presents you facts and evidence that lead you to Christ. Those who are possessed by evil spirits in advance, however, will reject the truth, they’ll prefer a lying narrative, an illusion rather than the truth.

No I havent missed the nature of the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of truth at all. I am not sure why you might believe that or believe those verses were not inspired by the Spirit of truth.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No I havent missed the nature of the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of truth at all. I am not sure why you might believe that or believe those verses were not inspired by the Spirit of truth.

I was pointing out the UNIQUE COMPONENT of the Holy Spirit, which is truth. God warned Adam that the DAY he ate of the forbidden fruit he would certainly die, but why neither Adam nor Eve died on that day? Why did Adam live 930 long years until he finally passed away? All conventional interpretations would tell you that they were "spiritually dead", that's not necessarily accurate, as God's spirit continues to strive with mankind (Gen. 6:3), which means it continues to sustain their mortal lives. It did NOT depart from them immediately on that 24-hour day. What they lost was the truth component, as they were deceived by Satan. Most people live by spirit without the truth or even the desire to seek truth. As opposed to the spirit of truth, there are all kinds of philosophies, ideologies, religions, controlled by spirits from fallen angels. People who propagate and preach them die, but these spirits themselves never die, they live on for centuries and consume naive, innocent minds that are not pre-disposed to the truth. This is why we're fighting a spiritual warfare, we're facing lying spirits all around us, and the only way to push them back is with the spirit of TRUTH.

 

I was pointing out the UNIQUE COMPONENT of the Holy Spirit, which is truth. God warned Adam that the DAY he ate of the forbidden fruit he would certainly die, but why neither Adam nor Eve died on that day? Why did Adam live 930 long years until he finally passed away? All conventional interpretations would tell you that they were "spiritually dead", that's not necessarily accurate, as God's spirit continues to strive with mankind (Gen. 6:3), which means it continues to sustain their mortal lives. It did NOT depart from them immediately on that 24-hour day. What they lost was the truth component, as they were deceived by Satan. Most people live by spirit without the truth or even the desire to seek truth. As opposed to the spirit of truth, there are all kinds of philosophies, ideologies, religions, controlled by spirits from fallen angels. People who propagate and preach them die, but these spirits themselves never die, they live on for centuries and consume naive, innocent minds that are not pre-disposed to the truth. This is why we're fighting a spiritual warfare, we're facing lying spirits all around us, and the only way to push them back is with the spirit of TRUTH.

I dont think there is anyone who here who would not acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth or believe that a lie comes from the truth or believes any of the scriptures presented were lies. I am aware of both interpretations. But if it was spiritual death (lets say) then obviously Adam wouldnt have to phyically die while even that 930 years later (in the one man by whom death passed onto all men ) is still well within a day with the Lord being compared with as thousand years anyway (Minus that 70 addition years left to accomplish what needs to be accomplished), And did you notice the days in years in Genesis 6:3 you quoted are the exact days in years when Moses died Deut 34:7 Not to mention death reigning is also mentioned as being from Adam to Moses, Romans 5:14 notice that? First man, first covenant. Romans 5:14 summed up nicely between the spaces laid out there?

I do believe God made him a living soul, but death reigning from Adam to Moses fits into your equation how? Because if death was a one time event for Adam in that day and pertained to physical death alone how did the same death both pass unto all men but just specifically reign from Adam to Moses (within that whole striving period)?

I hope I said that right, I am really bad at speaking from myself and really prefer not to, I can't find my notes and my arms are tired in the postion I am typing here.

I had to edit the correct verse, missed it by a line

 

[Butch5]

Paul saying that he died daily would never be understood to mean he died and needs to go to a morgue on an every day basis.
Most will die just once after the flesh in that manner.

People can die daily through the Spirit by putting to death the deeds of the body in to live.

Dead being spiritual in nature there is just saying that it is not speaking about death in the carnal manner of it (meaning, it has nothing to do with being buried 6 feet under)

Man being alive in the flesh (pertains as much to his own spirit) as being alive in Jesus Christ pertains to the Holy Spirit

Starting at the beginning and the breath of life in man

His breath and the first man becoming a living soul

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That same breath is also called "their breath" when its taken away they die and return to their dust

Psalm 104:39 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Likewise the sons of men and beasts all have one breath, as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath just as it says here

Ecc 3:11 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other;
yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

So how many breaths?

In the above it states one breath, " they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast"

In otherwords both you and your cat and dog have one breath/spirit and we see

In John 20:22 He (Jesus) breathed on them (which all had one breath already), and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God)

And so by breath once again (through the last man Jesus Christ) these by the same have received the Spirit of God.

Likewise, the Spirit of God beareth witness with our own spirit

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

Theres a spirit of man and a spirit of God and the Spirit of God bears witness with ours

So you can be dead in sins, and dead in the ground its often specific as to what it is either speaking of or not speaking of

I had emailed the board to cancel my membership I was a bit too hasty in joining, I'm not really a forum person anymore and not too sure how long that will take but I will likely not be able to answer once I am either deleted or banned
I don't know how they do this, but I wanted to let you know in advance.

So, then you agree that death is being used as a metaphor, correct? If so, then spiritual death is not a real thing.

There is a spirit in man, It's God's breath or spirit. Man is not a spirit. When the apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought they had seen a spirit. Jesus informed them saying, 'a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have'. Man has flesh and bone. If Jesus wasn't a spirit then neither is any other man. Again, man has a spirit or breath in him, but that breath or spirit is something of God, not man.

Since the word spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek and Hebrew words, noe, pnuema, ruah, and neshamah, which mean wind, what is the figure? What is the spirit of God? The breath or spirit of life is that power which gives man life, the ability to function, to think, to reason, etc. Without it man is dead. So, if the breath or spirit of life is God's power that allows man to live, what is the Holy Breath or Spirit? Would it not be the same power of God to enable man to live holy. Man is sinful and cannot live holy before God without God's help via the Holy Breath. Some will surely balk at this statement however, let us look at what Luke writes.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.


The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Lk 1:30–35.

Here Luke equates the Holy breath or Spirit with the power of the Highest. The Highest is God the Father. It is by His power that Mary conceived. So, it would seem from this that the figure is one of power. The wind or breath of God is a figure of speech used to denote God's power or a power from God.

 

So, then you agree that death is being used as a metaphor, correct? If so, then spiritual death is not a real thing.

There is a spirit in man, It's God's breath or spirit. Man is not a spirit. When the apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought they had seen a spirit. Jesus informed them saying, 'a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have'. Man has flesh and bone. If Jesus wasn't a spirit then neither is any other man. Again, man has a spirit or breath in him, but that breath or spirit is something of God, not man.

Since the word spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek and Hebrew words, noe, pnuema, ruah, and neshamah, which mean wind, what is the figure? What is the spirit of God? The breath or spirit of life is that power which gives man life, the ability to function, to think, to reason, etc. Without it man is dead. So, if the breath or spirit of life is God's power that allows man to live, what is the Holy Breath or Spirit? Would it not be the same power of God to enable man to live holy. Man is sinful and cannot live holy before God without God's help via the Holy Breath. Some will surely balk at this statement however, let us look at what Luke writes.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.


The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Lk 1:30–35.

Here Luke equates the Holy breath or Spirit with the power of the Highest. The Highest is God the Father. It is by His power that Mary conceived. So, it would seem from this that the figure is one of power. The wind or breath of God is a figure of speech used to denote God's power or a power from God.

I believe the scriptures as they lay things out and can be comparing spiritual things. The law is spiritual, Take Sarah and Agar they are an allegory, they are two covenants.

In respects to death, I believe Jesus death was literal, where? Even as it pertain to Galgotha ( meaning "the place of the skull") can show the spiritual state of the carnal mind (which is death) so even in that if you fill in the blank shows a symbol of death (an example of being carnally minded). And an emnity against God. Which is also the place we pass from "death unto life" by Christ. (and His Fathers name pertains to the forehead) But he was also crucified in a place spiritually called Sodom Egypt too, so you could chose one and run with what is often sitting there waiting to be discovered as the Spirit teaches us spiritual things, but I believe Christ literally died, so I do not see His death as something I cannot take literal. But I am not literal minded the scriptures should define those limits along with the help of the Spirit of God who teaches us these things.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I dont think there is anyone who here who would not acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth or believe that a lie comes from the truth or believes any of the scriptures presented were lies. I am aware of both interpretations. But if it was spiritual death (lets say) then obviously Adam wouldnt have to phyically die while even that 930 years later (in the one man by whom death passed onto all men ) is still well within a day with the Lord being compared with as thousand years anyway (Minus that 70 addition years left to accomplish what needs to be accomplished), And did you notice the days in years in Genesis 6:3 you quoted are the exact days in years when Moses died Deut 34:7 Not to mention death reigning is also mentioned as being from Adam to Moses, Romans 5:14 notice that? First man, first covenant. Romans 5:14 summed up nicely between the spaces laid out there?

I do believe God made him a living soul, but death reigning from Adam to Moses fits into your equation how? Because if death was a one time event for Adam in that day and pertained to physical death alone how did the same death both pass unto all men but just specifically reign from Adam to Moses (within that whole striving period)?

I hope I said that right, I am really bad at speaking from myself and really prefer not to, I can't find my notes and my arms are tired in the postion I am typing here.

I had to edit the correct verse, missed it by a line

The concept of "day" in Gen. 6:3 or anywhere else in the bible from God's view is a thousand years. We're on the same page when it comes to 2 Peter 3:8. Apply that definition on Adam's life, then it makes perfect sense - 930 years, just 70 shy of 1000, as you yourself has notcied. This alluedes to God's grand blueprint of 7000 years laid out in the Creation Week. Mankind are given authority to govern themselves for 6000 years, after that is the millennial kingdom of Christ, hence the DAY of the Lord. This is the general narrative, very important, keep that in mind.

When God declared that his spirit shall strive with mankind for 120 years in Gen. 6:3, it has two layers of meaning: first, mankind was given 120 years to repent before the Flood, the 120 years therein are 120 consecutive years; second, these 120 years are 120 jubilee years, a year of liberty and rejoicing. Only a jubilee year is an "acceptable year for the Lord", according to Isaiah 61:2 which Yeshua quoted; and by the definition of Jubilee in Leviticus 25:10-28, it's every 50th year, which is like a longer version of Pentecost. Multiply 50 by 120, what do you get? Yep, 6000 years!

Moses's life of exact 120 years was a microcasm of this blueprint. For the first 40 years of his life, he grew up as the prince of Egypt without a clue of his real identity and purpose, that's the first 2000 years of mankind; then he had his solo exodus from Egypt, as he fled to Midian and lived there for another 40 years, that's God's calling of Israel, starting from Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3; finally, he returned to Egypt and led God's people out of there, then they strived in the wilderness for the last 40 years of his life, that's the final 2000 years of church age since Yeshua, we the church are treading on our journey in our spiritual wilderness. Therefore, the whole striving period is the entire human history, from Adam to the second coming of Christ. "Striving" therein indicates the nature of spiritual warfare, as I said in the previous post.

 

The concept of "day" in Gen. 6:3 or anywhere else in the bible from God's view is a thousand years. We're on the same page when it comes to 2 Peter 3:8. Apply that definition on Adam's life, then it makes perfect sense - 930 years, just 70 shy of 1000, as you yourself has notcied. This alluedes to God's grand blueprint of 7000 years laid out in the Creation Week. Mankind are given authority to govern themselves for 6000 years, after that is the millennial kingdom of Christ, hence the DAY of the Lord. This is the general narrative, very important, keep that in mind.

When God declared that his spirit shall strive with mankind for 120 years in Gen. 6:3, it has two layers of meaning: first, mankind was given 120 years to repent before the Flood, the 120 years therein are 120 consecutive years; second, these 120 years are 120 jubilee years, a year of liberty and rejoicing. Only a jubilee year is an "acceptable year for the Lord", according to Isaiah 61:2 which Yeshua quoted; and by the definition of Jubilee in Leviticus 25:10-28, it's every 50th year, which is like a longer version of Pentecost. Multiply 50 by 120, what do you get? Yep, 6000 years!

Moses's life of exact 120 years was a microcasm of this blueprint. For the first 40 years of his life, he grew up as the prince of Egypt without a clue of his real identity and purpose, that's the first 2000 years of mankind; then he had his solo exodus from Egypt, as he fled to Midian and lived there for another 40 years, that's God's calling of Israel, starting from Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3; finally, he returned to Egypt and led God's people out of there, then they strived in the wilderness for the last 40 years of his life, that's the final 2000 years of church age since Yeshua, we the church are treading on our journey in our spiritual wilderness. Therefore, the whole striving period is the entire human history, from Adam to the second coming of Christ. "Striving" therein indicates the nature of spiritual warfare, as I said in the previous post.

You and Stewardofthemystery should talk he loves numbers.

Ever count the number of Moses age in Gematria? Same number in Genesis before the waters, same number at Moses death before the Jordon and the number of silver brought to Solomon by the Queen of Sheba and about the same number of disciples seated together just before pentatacost.

The day Adam was created to the day Moses died can be counted that way comes up kind of neat using that.