Discussion about the Atoning Death of Christ

[Br. Bear]

But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites? Matthew 22:18

Greetings,

Ok . I will explain, Paul here in Rom 5:19 is contrasting the act and result of two different men, Adam and Christ. Now by the act of one man adam, it resulted in many being made sinners, contrasted with the act of One man Jesus Christ it results in many shall be made righteous. Now can you see that contrast in Rom 5:19 ?

You really didn't have to start with, "at least you are honest here". If you wish to judge my integrity and be talking about me then that would be hypocritical, unless you are now open to discussing you, as well, and I know you don't desire to be found amongst them who practice such things. Please be open to what I am saying to you as you want me to be open to what you are saying to me and everyone else on this thread.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. Matthew 23:13

They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit. Job 15:35

And, yes, I now understand what you were trying to say by using the term, 'contrast' ... I think.

thank you for explaining.


Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites? Matthew 22:18

Greetings,



You really didn't have to start with, "at least you are honest here". If you wish to judge my integrity and be talking about me then that would be hypocritical, unless you are now open to discussing you, as well, and I know you don't desire to be found amongst them who practice such things. Please be open to what I am saying to you as you want me to be open to what you are saying to me and everyone else on this thread.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. Matthew 23:13

They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit. Job 15:35

And, yes, I now understand what you were trying to say by using the term, 'contrast' ... I think.

thank you for explaining.


Bless you ....><>

Sorry if you were offended, didnt mean to intend you were dishonest. Now back to Rom 5:19, so the thing to understand in the contrast is that the act of the One brought about the results upon the many. The act of the one man Jesus Christ brought about the result of being made righteous for the many. So you see the obedience, faith, repentance of the many wasn't needed or required to be saved by the Death of Christ. If that were true then it would overthrow Pauls teaching in Rom 5:19 and would mean it was by the obedience of many were the many made righteous.

 

[B-A-C]

Sorry if you were offended, didnt mean to intend you were dishonest. Now back to Rom 5:19, so the thing to understand in the contrast is that the act of the One brought about the results upon the many. The act of the one man Jesus Christ brought about the result of being made righteous for the many. So you see the obedience, faith, repentance of the many wasn't needed or required to be saved by the Death of Christ. If that were true then it would overthrow Pauls teaching in Rom 5:19 and would mean it was by the obedience of many were the many made righteous.

How many is "many"?

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The population of the earth is somewhere around 7 billion people. Let's say that 10% get saved.
That's still 700 million people. You could say that is "many" people. But in the context of 7 billion, it
is a "few".

 

[beloved57]

How many is "many"?

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The population of the earth is somewhere around 7 billion people. Let's say that 10% get saved.
That's still 700 million people. You could say that is "many" people. But in the context of 7 billion, it
is a "few".

There's no definitive number for many, however it doesn't mean all without exception. It does denote a large quantity.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Which would still be works.

But not how you are applying it towards which was faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith in God providing is a different application of faith in God that has to come with leading by example if a believer profess that faith in His Providence for others to have as well.

 

[beloved57]

bac

The population of the earth is somewhere around 7 billion people. Let's say that 10% get saved.
That's still 700 million people. You could say that is "many" people. But in the context of 7 billion, it
is a "few".

Agreed, Thanks !

 

[Br. Bear]

Sorry if you were offended, didnt mean to intend you were dishonest.

Thank you.
---------------------------------------

Now back to Rom 5:19, so the thing to understand in the contrast is that the act of the One brought about the results upon the many. The act of the one man Jesus Christ brought about the result of being made righteous for the many. So you see the obedience, faith, repentance of the many wasn't needed or required to be saved by the Death of Christ. If that were true then it would overthrow Pauls teaching in Rom 5:19 and would mean it was by the obedience of many were the many made righteous.

Is 'Atoning for' the same as "to be saved"?

Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Thank you.
---------------------------------------


Is 'Atoning for' the same as "to be saved"?

Bless you ....><>

I don't see the words atoning for in the quote. Could you please respond to the words of the quote? Thanks

 

[beloved57]

amadeus

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom 5:19
Yes, many shall be made righteous, but it is not an automatic thing.

Well being made righteous here is the direct result of the Obedience of one, just as being made a sinner was the direct result of the disobedience of one. So was it automatic that many were made sinners by one man disobedience ? Yes, so likewise its automatic that many are made righteous by one mans obedience! So your statement that its not a automatic thing appears to be contrary to the stated truth of Rom 5:19

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Yes i do. But that question is irrelevant to the point. If one believes that sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned then that person does not believe in the saving efficacy of Christ Blood. That's unbelief!

This makes no sense at all.
Christ she'd His blood for All men.
However if one does not accept this and act on it then that does not change the fact that Jesus she'd His blood for all man.

What exactly is the point you are making?
Man if I simply missed what you are saying then please forgive me.
Blessings
W4F

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Yes, so likewise its automatic that many are made righteous by one mans obedience

Greetings
This is not at all 100 percent true.
Nothing in the Promises of God just automatically happen.
Blessings

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

BY one man, sin entered. We all know that (I think). Likewise, by One sin has been dealt with at the Cross, where Christ atoned for us (the sins of the world) by the shedding of His Blood.

If I may, when I became a Christian, I had very very little understanding of Scriptures and the many wonderful 'things' in them so most of what most Christians talk and write about here and elsewhere was totally foreign to me. But, I knew, in the twinkling of an eye, from being in darness and chains, that Christ Jesus the Son of God had set me free from the power of sin and death, that by His Blood he had made full atonement for me. I did not know such terminology nor was I aware of it, but I realised what great liberty had been purchased for me on that tree.

The word, 'automatic' is pretty good in today's use of the English language because it sums up that the Death of the Lamb was sufficient, then and there and from that moment on the curtain was torn , the way made open the throne approachable to all who would believe. To suggest otherwise would be deliberately denying the fact that we were made righteous then. In the same way, it was when Adam sinned, that sin entered the world. Surely we agree with that? (I am open to any expounding on that or correction, if I have said anything contrary to Scripture)

As far as I understand Scripture now (compared to when I began the race) the Atoning Death of Christ is and was a once for all and would never be repeated at the time. When our Lord said/cried out, "it is finished" He was being honest and He knew what He was saying and He claimed probably the most important event in our whole history.
From that moment our Salvation was and is eternally secured and paid for with zero repentance from God, whatsoever.

At the moment I believed, I discovered to my great joy that I had been made righteous before God, through Jesus His Son and that is something the devil will never be able to take from me nor any that believe on His name.
The devil has tried over and again to steal it from me to tempt me with doubts but thanks be to God Who has given us the VICTORY!

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I don't see the words atoning for in the quote. Could you please respond to the words of the quote? Thanks

Forgive me please on this point. I thought you had mentioned 'atone' or 'atoning' earlier in the thread. My mistake.
However, can we say that it is only by the Christ Blood making atonement for the sins of the world that any will be saved or is there more that a man must do in order to be saved, like believe?

So you see the obedience, faith, repentance of the many wasn't needed or required to be saved by the Death of Christ. If that were true then it would overthrow Pauls teaching in Rom 5:19 and would mean it was by the obedience of many were the many made righteous.

Can I put it like this,
There once was a door. It was closed. At a certain time the owner of that door opened it. It remains open. one day it will shut again, so if any man wants to enter in, now is the time to do so. Are all welcome to enter in?
As we know, Jesus Christ is that Door. None can come to the Father but by Him. The day draws near that it will shut, yet the Lord still calls all to come, to enter His rest. The question is, If Jesus Christ the Son of God is the Door (and He is!!! There is NO other), and we have to enter through Him how do we do that?
Is it by entering in that we are saved?
Can I be so bold as to suggest that the very first thing after hearing of the Door is that you have to actually believe that that Door exists. A lot of Christian Doctrine is wrapped up in understanding what and Who and why of the Door.

Noah built the Ark. It had a door. Only those who entered in were saved. From what I understand Noah preached to the men of his day and they did not believe, so, they perished.


Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Greetings
This is not at all 100 percent true.
Nothing in the Promises of God just automatically happen.
Blessings

Yes Rom 5:19 is 100 % True !

 

[beloved57]

Greetings,

BY one man, sin entered. We all know that (I think). Likewise, by One sin has been dealt with at the Cross, where Christ atoned for us (the sins of the world) by the shedding of His Blood.

If I may, when I became a Christian, I had very very little understanding of Scriptures and the many wonderful 'things' in them so most of what most Christians talk and write about here and elsewhere was totally foreign to me. But, I knew, in the twinkling of an eye, from being in darness and chains, that Christ Jesus the Son of God had set me free from the power of sin and death, that by His Blood he had made full atonement for me. I did not know such terminology nor was I aware of it, but I realised what great liberty had been purchased for me on that tree.

The word, 'automatic' is pretty good in today's use of the English language because it sums up that the Death of the Lamb was sufficient, then and there and from that moment on the curtain was torn , the way made open the throne approachable to all who would believe. To suggest otherwise would be deliberately denying the fact that we were made righteous then. In the same way, it was when Adam sinned, that sin entered the world. Surely we agree with that? (I am open to any expounding on that or correction, if I have said anything contrary to Scripture)

As far as I understand Scripture now (compared to when I began the race) the Atoning Death of Christ is and was a once for all and would never be repeated at the time. When our Lord said/cried out, "it is finished" He was being honest and He knew what He was saying and He claimed probably the most important event in our whole history.
From that moment our Salvation was and is eternally secured and paid for with zero repentance from God, whatsoever.

At the moment I believed, I discovered to my great joy that I had been made righteous before God, through Jesus His Son and that is something the devil will never be able to take from me nor any that believe on His name.
The devil has tried over and again to steal it from me to tempt me with doubts but thanks be to God Who has given us the VICTORY!

Bless you ....><>

You dont appear to understand. Rom 5:19 is teaching the principle of representation by the natural head adam, and the Spiritual head Christ. Now the many that adam represented, in his headship, when he disobeyed, the many he represented were made sinners, even though they had not yet personally disobeyed God yet because they had not yet existed, so it was only by adams sole disobedience they were made sinners.

Now in the same fashion the many Christ represented in His Headship, when He obeyed, the many he represented shall be made righteous, even though they had not yet personally obeyed God, because they had not yet existed, so it was by Christ's sole obedience they shall be made righteous !

 

[beloved57]

This makes no sense at all.
Christ she'd His blood for All men.
However if one does not accept this and act on it then that does not change the fact that Jesus she'd His blood for all man.

What exactly is the point you are making?
Man if I simply missed what you are saying then please forgive me.
Blessings
W4F

I stated my point. If one believes that Christ died for all humans without exception, and consequently all human beings without exception are saved, then its obvious this one doesnt believe in the saving death of Christ, which is unbelief.

See the death of Christ saves, His Blood actually saved them He shed it for.

So heres the deal.

One either believes Christ died for all without exception, and His Blood didnt actually save anyone but only made saving possible, which is unbelief in the blood

or secondly one believes that Christ died for all without exception and His Blood saved all without exception, no one is lost, which is universalism and thats false because many shall be lost.

or thirdly, one believes that Christ died only for all His Sheep, Gods Elect without exception of ethnicity, and all them shall be saved, thats Faith in the Blood of Christ, that it saved all for whom it was shed. That by the way is my position !

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

thank you for sharing your present position beloved57.

You listed three options in what you call, "the deal". Surely there are more options that men have come up with? Many more. In fact people believe all manner of things even when they say they don't believe in God, which is in itself a complete mind-rattler because to say you don't believe in God means you must believe in a God that you don't believe in! I haven't been able to work that one out yet.

Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Greetings,

thank you for sharing your present position beloved57.

You listed three options in what you call, "the deal". Surely there are more options that men have come up with? Many more. In fact people believe all manner of things even when they say they don't believe in God, which is in itself a complete mind-rattler because to say you don't believe in God means you must believe in a God that you don't believe in! I haven't been able to work that one out yet.

Bless you ....><>

ok. Do you want to discuss Rom 5:19 ?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Now the many that adam represented, in his headship, when he disobeyed, the many he represented were made sinners, even though they had not yet personally disobeyed God yet because they had not yet existed, so it was only by adams sole disobedience they were made sinners.

Now in the same fashion the many Christ represented in His Headship, when He obeyed, the many he represented shall be made righteous, even though they had not yet personally obeyed God, because they had not yet existed, so it was by Christ's sole obedience they shall be made righteous !

In what you are saying/writing here, are the many made righteous the same many men who were made sinners?
without any prior understanding, you appear to be suggesting that only some of the whole were made sinners... almost so that they would be made righteous again.
That is the way someone who has no understanding of the Bible and the will of God might read it.

It is almost as if you are trying to say that not all were/are/will be sinners through Adam's disobedience and not all can be made righteous through Christ's obedience.
So, the others? Or don't they matter to Christ or God?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again beloved57,

Do you want to discuss Rom 5:19 ?

yes, if you like. I like discussing Scripture.
I can't promise to able to get back to you non-stop so our discussion may span a few days.


Bless you ....><>