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Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Feb 10, 2007.

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  1. this is great. however in todays world and even amongst "christians", we are taught that we are supposed to tell people everything that makes them feel good in their flesh. if we tell them that they are in error of anything it is taken as we are disobediant or against authority. we need to be careful of these lies like this. we cant grow nor does anyone else grow if they are allowed to just stay in error of the word.

    for instance when peter and the other apostles were in error and started to teach a gospel of comfort to the flesh, paul confronted them straight on about it. this is the same with anyone that is in error.
     
  2. #202 Daniel Schultz, Sep 14, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
    I agree with DrBubbaLove, and I think we Catholics are well aware of salvation by grace through faith, so that nobody can boast. Cf. Eph 2:7-9.

    The dichotomy between faith and the sacraments seems unbiblical to me. Cf. Mk 16:16, Jn 6:47-53.

    I suppose that Catholics don't interpret CCC#1257 the way an outside observer might. We certainly know that we can lose our baptismal graces. Cf. 1 Jn 5:16.

    I can say as a Catholic that I am saved purely through the grace of Jesus Christ.
     
  3. #203 Daniel Schultz, Sep 14, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
    Sorry, I got confused and double posted by accident. My apologies.
     
  4. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.


    WE ONLY follow OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! No one else on earth !
    He alone is our HEAD we are HIS body! none other is head!


    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    the problem today as i see it ? Is people following people!

    Only the HOLY GHOST can OPEN our eyes to the correct understanding!

    1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


    1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    THIS IS HOW GOD sees our Spirit man , Once Born -Again!

    2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
     
  5. #205 Daniel Schultz, Sep 14, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
    hi spirit1st, There is no conflict between following a man invested with the authority of Christ, and following Christ. Husbands are head of their wives, but this in no way infringes on the authority of Christ over wives, and wives over children. Likewise, when Peter and his successors promised the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in Mt 16:17-19, with the authority to bind and loose on earth and heaven, this did not detract from Him, but glorified Christ. (Cf. 2 Tim 1:6 as a verse on apostolic succession.) Paul told Titus, a Bishop, "exhort and correct with all authority", i.e., with the authority of Jesus. Cf. Titus 2:5. So when I obey my presbyters, especially my Bishop and the Successor of Peter--who is Benedict 16th--I am obeying Jesus, and they have never led me astray on doctrine. The Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus, "the fulness of God", into which all are baptized. Cf. Eph 1:22-23. Lastly 1 Jn 2:27 is referring to how we have all knowledge once we've recieved the sacrament of the Spirit--"Confirmation"--through a successor of the Apostles. Cf. Acts 8:17, where the Apostles--men endowed with Christian authority--confer the Holy Spirit through their hands. So we pray always in the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. I disagree!
    the only true eternal priests on the face of the earth is GODS kids! those Born -again! it has nothing to do with any of these groups pr churches!

    2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
     
  7. #207 Daniel Schultz, Sep 15, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
    Hi Everyone, I agree that all Christians are priests. "You are a royal priesthood, a holy nation". However the Church is structured, as 1 Thes 5:12 indicates. The current Pope is definitely born again! In regard to whether the Church is only invisible, I look at Mt 5:14, Psalm 99:9, Mic 4:1-2, Is 61:11-12, all of which speak about the Church as a Mountain or something which will spring up before all the nations to see.

    In regard to justification by grace through faith, here is my favorite passage from the Catechism, which touches on the much-misunderstood biblical idea of "merit" (cf. Rev 2:23):

    2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.



    <DL><DD>After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.<SUP>63</SUP></DD></DL><SUP></SUP>
     
  8. Having been raised Catholic, having many Catholic family members and friends I make this observation:
    It is the contradiction that the Catholic Church interjects that open the doors for all manner of false and un-biblical doctrine. Most know nothing more than what they are told at mass and rely on ritual for salvation. That is of course most and mot all.
    The Word of God contains not contradiction. When adding the Apocrypha one finds not only contradiction, confusion but witchcraft as well.
     
  9. #209 Daniel Schultz, Sep 15, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
    I'm raised Catholic, too...and I find that the Catholic Church is faithful to Scripture, though most "Catholics" are not truly faithful to the Catholic Church, and are in fact material heretics or lukewarm. Likewise there are many Catholics in protestant denominations for lack of knowledge of Scripture and the history of Christ's Kingdom, which is His Body. Cf. Luke 1:32-33. (Most have been innocently misled by those they have a right to trust, such as parents, who also were innocently misled.) But they are truly Catholic because they are authentic Christians, and God is giving all time to come to total unity. Cf. Eph 4:,3, 13. (I believe all authentic, baptized Christians are Catholic.) Cf. 1 Cor 12:13. I think the Septuagint's books which are part of the Church's historical canon are the Word of God. Christ quoted mostly from the Setptuagint, which contained the book of Wisdom, which contains a prophecy from the Holy Spirit written about 100 years before Jesus was born:

    [Chapter 2]

    12
    <DD>Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. <DT>13 <DD>He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. <DT>14 <DD>To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, <DT>15 <DD>Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways. <DT>16 <DD>He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. <DT>17 <DD>Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. <DT>18 <DD>For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. <DT>19 <DD>With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. <DT>20 <DD>Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." <DT>21 <DD>These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, <DT>22 <DD>And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls' reward. <DT>23 <DD>For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him. <DT>24 <DD>But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.


    </DD>
     
  10. First understand that I do not dislike anyone but the truth must be sought and followed. I have much love for the Cathoilic people and the Lord Himself has me in prayer for them as well as sharing His truth with them. There is great freedom in Christ as one finds oneself free from the bondage of dead religious practices.

    That being said we certainly have different views on what is Christian and what is catholic. I am Catholic only in the sense definition "universal church". Other than that I have no connection to the Catholic religion.
    Having watched people kissing the feet of, worshiping and praying (publicly) to statues of dead people I was astonsished to see that they had the audacity to re-write the 10 commandments to cover their sinful way.
    Exo 20:3 Thou shalt haveH1961 noH3808 otherH312 godsH430 beforeH5921 H6440 me.
    Exo 20:4 Thou shalt notH3808 makeH6213 unto thee any graven image,H6459 or anyH3605 likenessH8544 of any thing thatH834 is in heavenH8064 above,H4480 H4605 or thatH834 is in the earthH776 beneath,H4480 H8478 or thatH834 is in the waterH4325 underH4480 H8478 the earth:H776
    Exo 20:5 Thou shalt notH3808 bow down thyselfH7812 to them, norH3808 serveH5647 them: forH3588 IH595 the LORDH3068 thy GodH430 am a jealousH7067 God,H410 visitingH6485 the iniquityH5771 of the fathersH1 uponH5921 the childrenH1121 untoH5921 the thirdH8029 and fourthH7256 generation of them that hateH8130 me;

    God's Word is the standard by which all truth is judged.
    God's Word does not contradict itself. If the additon of other writings contradict that Word then they are clearly error and thus not of God.

    The Apocrypha was rejected by the Jews as scripture and they are clearly identified as the keepers of the oracles of God by Paul
    Lets examine the errors in the Apocrypha that promote false doctrine:

    From the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry:


    Problems in the Apocrypha

    When we look into the apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.
    Magic:
    Tobit 6:5-7, "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."
    Is it true that the smoke from a fish's heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God.
    The Apocrypha also teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.


    Salvation by works:
    Tobit 4:11, "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness."
    Tobit 12:9, "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."
    We know from Scripture that alms (money or food, given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us, not money or food given to poor people. "but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).
    Money as an offering for the sins of the dead:
    2 Macabees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."
    Can anyone truly except that money isn't offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.
    Wrong historical facts:
    Judith 1:5, "Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him."
    Baruch 6:2, "And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace."
    The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.1
    Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. "And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
    Conclusion

    Obviously the apocrypha has serious problems. From magic, to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts, it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn't inspired of God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man's false tradition, rather than God's absolute truth.
     
  11. Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


    The Word of God is the standard. The Word of God does not contradict itself unless one tries to corrupt it with spurious works.

    Also Jesus never once quoted the Apocrypha.
     
  12. Dear Boanerges,The Bibliical Canon was historically was set by the Catholic Church betweeen 380 and 420 A.D., then confirmed again at the Second Council of Nicaea, and re-affirmed dogmatically in its entirety at Tretn in the 1500s. All Christians accept the authority of the Church in this matter, excepting the books which the reformers rejected. Cf. 1 Tim 3:15. If you Google: Catholic Answers Counting the Canon, you will find a good answer to your objections regarding Tobit, et al.

    Here is an excerpt from this article:

    Today, opponents present two classes of arguments against the books. These center around both the content of the books in their relationship to the rest of Scripture and the determination of who has proper authority to recognize or reject books as inspired.

    Five arguments are directed against the contents of the books themselves: God forbids sorcery, yet Tobit uses sympathetic magic to drive away a demon and heal blindness. Scripture is inerrant, yet Judith and Tobit have erroneous geography and history. Similarly, Sirach and 2 Maccabees implicitly deny they are inspired Scripture, since both contain prefaces in which the authors apologize for any possible errors. God forbids lying, yet Judith and the angel Raphael provide sinful examples by giving false information (Tob. 5:5, 5:13, Jud. 9:10, 13). Lastly, none of the books are quoted in the New Testament.

    Far from presenting an exercise in magic, Tobit presents the ancient Christological symbol of the fish (who is, in Tobit 6:3, literally a catcher of men) salted and roasted on coals (as Christ was scourged and roasted in the sun on the cross) in order to destroy the power of a murderous demon and drive him away from a virginal bride. The fish is used to heal a blind man (cf. John 9) by making things like scales fall from his eyes (cf. Acts 10:18).

    Apparent errors are not restricted to Tobit and Judith. The book of Daniel says the Medes were a world power in the era between the neo-Babylonians and the Persians (cf. Dan. 2:31-45, 7:1-7), but no historical evidence confirms it. Belshazzar was never titled a king, despite Daniel's assertions otherwise, and he was the son of Nabonidus (556-539 B.C), not of Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 B.C.) (cf 5:1-30, 7:1-7, 17, 8:1-27). Daniel records a Darius the Mede. Darius I was really king of Persia (522-486 B.C).

    Similarly, other books show dubious statements by the inspired authors. 1 Corinthians 1:15, for example, shows Paul forgetting whom he baptized, while 1 Corinthians 7:12 and 1 Corinthians 7:40 are explicitly asserted to be Paul's personal opinion, not God's word. Likewise, many books of Scripture highlight morally dubious acts. The Hebrew midwives lie to Pharaoh (Ex. 1:19), while Judges, in addition to presenting a situation similar to Judith (Judg. 4:17-22), also shows a man who offers his own daughter as a holocaust (Judg. 11:29-40) and another who gives his wife to a crowd to be raped to death in place of himself (Judg. 19:22-30), while Genesis shows Jacob being rewarded for stealing Esau's birthright (Gen. 25 and 27).

    [Kellmeyer, Steven L. Kellmeyer. Counting the Canon. This Rock (magazine) June 1998.]
     
  13. #213 Boanerges, Sep 15, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
    Dear friend, the Word of God was determined by Him and no organization may dictate that.
    Embracing error and mixing it with the truth produces only deception.
    Smoke from a fishes liver has nothing to do with the disciples or Christ Himself.
    The folks God Himself gave stewardship over scripture rejected those spurious writings yet in spite of this foolish men still try to dean it scripture.
    The fact is and still remains that the Apocryphal writings (while an interesting read) introduce a variety of un-biblical and abominable doctrines.

    The truth of the matter can be boiled down to this one point- if it contradicts the Word of God then it is not of God for He does not lie and His Word is true.
    Selah.
     
  14. #214 Daniel Schultz, Sep 15, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
    Hi Boanerges, I don't see anything which would clearly invalidate Tobit or the prophecy of Wisdom which I quoted at length above, or Maccabees nor likewise any of the other 5 books. The Body of Christ has always accepted these books, though they like several of the N.T. texts, went through a lengthy discerning process in the early Christian Body. I don't see anything in these books which contradicts the Word of God. Just as God used the Apostles to deposit the fulness of the Word of God, I think he used their appointed Successors to define this Word as servants.

    I do think the fish of Tobit symbolize Christ. From ancient times the fish has been a symbol of Christ and Christians, just as Fishermen have been a symbol of the Apostles in the Scriptures. "I will make you fishers of men." Also the Bible is filled with references to the power of incense as a sign of prayer. Cf. e.g. Rev 5:8. To call this "magic" would imply the solicitation of demonic powers. However Tobiah was driving demons away and was not trying to employ them.

    As I understand it, the Book of Tobit is a folktale allegory, not a strict history. Some people feel folktales should not be part of Scripture.

    Here is some of the beautiful text which is pertinent:

    [from the New American Bible; Tobit Chapter 6:]

    16


    <DD>Raphael said to him: "Do you not remember your father's orders? He commanded you to marry a woman from your own family. So now listen to me, brother; do not give another thought to this demon, but marry Sarah. I know that tonight you shall have her for your wife! <DT>17 <DD>When you go into the bridal chamber, take the fish's liver and heart, and place them on the embers for the incense. <DT>18 <DD>As soon as the demon smells the odor they give off, he will flee and never again show himself near her. Then when you are about to have intercourse with her, both of you first rise up to pray. Beg the Lord of heaven to show you mercy and grant you deliverance. But do not be afraid, for she was set apart for you before the world existed. You will save her, and she will go with you. And I suppose that you will have children by her, who will take the place of brothers for you. So do not worry."
    --------------------------------
    As for Maccabees, there is nothing wrong with giving alms out of love. "Love covers a multitude of sins". If this love is expressed through giving money for God-approved temples sacrifices--or today by giving the priest a few dollars for offering the Sacrifice of the New Covenant--this can help expiate the sins of others, even after death. The lowly widow gave her mite and was praised by Christ.
    <DD>
    <DD>I don't see anything in Scripture which prohibits prayers for the dead. The Tradition of the Church encourages it. Cf. 1 Cor 11:2. The Church has always taught that some souls are purified of remaining vestiges of sin after death. Cf. 1 Cor 3:15.
    <DD>
    I feel that if the Reformers and their followers were truly the human authorities sent by God to correct the Biblical Canon, they would have been able to agree on fundamental doctrines such as baptism and the Lord's Supper. Cf. Heb 6:1-2, 1 Cor 11:23-26etc.
    <DD>
    <DD>The early Church fathers in the first millenium taught the faith in a unified way in regard to the Canon, the Trinity, and the Sacraments.
    </DD>





    <DD>



    </DD>
     
  15. First , God cursed Saul for summoning the dead. The Apostles themselves would take no adoration and the Word of God plainly states that :
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Jesus Christ the One High Priest has established the priesthood of the believer. The Holy Spirit dwells in believers and through Christ we are to commune with the Father asking that which we might in His Name. That is scriptural.


    Those who use such spurious writing must prove their validity using those same texts as their source. They contradict scripture and add doctrines that are found no where else in the Word.An example would be the doctrine of "immaculate conception" which is no where found outside of Apocryphal writing. Scripture makes no such claim. She was born in the line of Judah and Mary (am obedient Jewish girl with a heart towards God) was a virgin only until Jesus was born :
    Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    You cast out demons with fish guts I use the Name of Jesus, hmmm.
    If you do not wish to "call it magic" or "sorcery" perhaps white witch craft would suffice.

    There is not provable correlation of that fish to Jesus.

    The Apocryphal Books are mainly historic in nature as contain a huge amount of error. This is not found in scripture.
    Examples would be:
    The 2 Books of Maccabees, site that Antiochus Epiphanes suffers 3 different deaths and those in completely different locations.
    In the Book of Tobit about the age of the father, he would have to be 200+ years of age to witness Israel being deprted to Nineveh but he is listed as only 102 years of age when he dies.

    The Jews rejected these works form the Old Testament Cannon and not one was written in Hebrew.

    Different copies of the Septuagent contain different Books from the Apocrypha.

    Not a single Apocryphal author lays claim to inspiration from God. Not a single one of them was penned by a Prophet nor an Apostle.

    Not once is the Apocrypha quoted by Jesus or any Apostle. Never once is it given the "it is written" status.


    Even the Catholic Church itself has had disputes over the validity of the inclusion of this spurious material.
    From prove the bible:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"the Apocrypha was reportedly rejected by the Catholic church's own Pope Leo X, Cardinal Zomenes, Cardinal Cajetan, Pope Clement VII as well as many of its own scholars"

    So in summation- the Apocrypha is not only full of errors but it interjects doctrines that are not backed up in any acknowledged scripture.
    [/FONT]
     
  16. #216 Daniel Schultz, Sep 16, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
    Hi Boanerges, Catholics don't summon the spirits of Christian souls going through final purgation. They simply pray for them as they are encouraged to intercede for all, as 1 Tim 2:1-2 states before the teahing that Christ is the One Mediator. So we intercede through the One Mediator as you say. You are correct that all Christians are priests. Cf. 1 Pt 2: 5, 9.

    I didn't know that the Immaculate Conception is stated in the Apocrypha. Which book is that in? I agree that Mary's sinlessness is not explicit in Scripture, but then neither is the Trinity.I think this teaching is implied in many places.

    I don't know about the particular examples of errors in these books which you bring up. Could you cite which verses you refer to? Did you read the Kellmeyer article I mentioned? He points out that there are historical difficulties in the Canon you accept, also, which is why Christians read Scripture according to the correct genres and with faith.

    I think that Tobit is a folktale with allegorical prophecies. The Biblical Canon is based not on my judgment but on the judgment of the historic Body of Christ. I don't know whether Christ ever quoted from the "apocrypha". I know that he quoted mostly from the Greek canon called the Septuatin; and that it contains a clear prophecy of Christ. Here it is again from the New American Bible Wisdom Chapter 2:

    12



    <DD>Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. <DT>13 <DD>He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. <DT>14 <DD>To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, <DT>15 <DD>Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways. <DT>16 <DD>He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. <DT>17 <DD>Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. <DT>18 <DD>For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. <DT>19 <DD>With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. <DT>20 <DD>Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." <DT>21 <DD>These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, <DT>22 <DD>And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls' reward. <DT>23 <DD>For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him. <DT>24 <DD>But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
    Would you like me to look for some citations from the Apocrypha from the New Testament?

    Could you give evidence that any of the Catholic Popes or saints rejected these books?

    Scripture says we should go by what was handed on either in writing or orally. Cf. 2 Thes 2:15; 3:6. I don't know whether something said in Scripture has to be explicitly backed up elsewhere. I know that the Bible teaches that the Church is historical (cf. Mt 5:14), and is The Foundation of Truth.








    </DD>
     
  17. #217 Boanerges, Sep 16, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
    Without the forced insertion of error (the Apocrypha) there is no scriptural purgatory. That is just another case of erroneous doctrine creates by use Pseudepigrapha with only it's own self to support such doctrine.
    The same can be said if the sinless Mary fable. Historically and scripturally she was a nice girl with a heart to obey God. His grace overshadowed her sin and He used her as a vessel to bring forth His Son in human flesh.

    Historically and from what I have read these are the Popes who questioned the veracity of the Apocrypha:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prior to the Reformation, the Apocrypha was reportedly rejected by the Catholic church's own Pope Leo X, Cardinal Zomenes, Cardinal Cajetan, Pope Clement VII as did many of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]early [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]church fathers .
    As far as saints the biblical definition is one sanctified by Christ (a believer) so that could cover billions of people and not some voted on religious club that some ascribe.

    As time permits me I will indeed furnish you with specific chapter and verse on the previously discussed data.

    [/FONT]
     
  18. #218 Daniel Schultz, Sep 16, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
    Hi Boanerges, I think that 1 Cor 3:13-15 is explicitly referring to post-death purgation, as are many other passages which are non-explicit such as Mt 5:25-26. The Jews have always prayed for the dead, historically, as Maccabees reflects, even if one feels it is not canonical. Jesus did not condemn this practice that I know of.

    I've never seen anything from the Popes questioning the status of Maccabees, et al. There are no records of any protestant Christians between 100 and 1000 A.D. that I'm aware of. But there are many records of the oral tradition about purgatory etc from great heroes of the faith St. Augustine Bishop of Hippo. Cf. 2 Tim 2:2. Here is the official teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory from the Catechism:


    1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
    1031The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.<SUP>606</SUP> The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:<SUP>607</SUP>


    <DL><DD>As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.<SUP>608</SUP>


    </DD></DL>
    1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."<SUP>609</SUP> From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.<SUP>610</SUP> The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


    <DL><DD>Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.<SUP>611</SUP>


    </DD></DL>
     
  19. 3 deaths of Antiochus.

    2Ma 9:1 About that time came Antiochus with dishonor out of the countrey of Persia.
    2Ma 9:2 For he had entred the citie called Persepolis, and went about to rob the Temple, and to hold the citie, whereupon the multitude running to defend theselues with their weapons, put them to flight, & so it happened that Antiochus being put to flight of the inhabitants, returned with shame.
    2Ma 9:3 Now when he came to Ecbatana, newes was brought him what had happened vnto Nicanor & Timotheus.
    2Ma 9:4 Then swelling with anger, hee thought to auenge vpon the Iewes the disgrace done vnto him by those that made him flie. Therfore commanded he his chariot man to driue without ceasing, and to dispatch the iourney, the iudgement of God now following him. For he had spoken proudly in this sort, that he would come to Ierusalem, & make it a common burying place of ye Iewes.
    2Ma 9:5 But the Lord almightie, the God of Israel smote him with an incurable and inuisible plague: for assoone as hee had spoken these words, a paine of the bowels that was remediles, came vpon him, & sore torments of the inner parts.
    2Ma 9:6 And that most iustly: for hee had tormented other mens bowels with many and strange torments.
    2Ma 9:7 Howbeit hee nothing at all ceased from his bragging, but still was filled with pride, breathing out fire in his rage against the Iewes, and commanding to haste the iourney: but it came to passe that he fel downe fro his chariot, caried violently, so that hauing a sore fal, al the mebers of his body were much pained.
    2Ma 9:8 And thus hee that a little afore thought he might command the waues of the sea (so proud was hee beyond the condition of man) and weigh the high mountaines in a ballance, was now cast on the ground, and carried in an horselitter, shewing foorth vnto all, the manifest power of God.
    2Ma 9:9 So that the wormes rose vp out of the body of this wicked man, & whiles hee liued in sorrow and paine, his flesh fell away, and the filthinesse of his smell was noysome to all his army.
    2Ma 9:10 And the man that thought a little afore he could reach to the starres of heauen, no man could endure to carry for his intollerable stinke.
    2Ma 9:11 Here therefore being plagued, hee began to leaue off his great pride, and to come to the knowledge by the scourge of God, his paine encreasing euery moment.
    2Ma 9:12 And when hee himselfe could not abide his owne smell; hee saide these wordes: It is meete to bee subiect vnto God, and that a man that is mortall, should not proudly thinke of himselfe, as if he were God.
    2Ma 9:13 This wicked person vowed also vnto the Lord, (who now no more would haue mercy vpon him) saying thus:
    2Ma 9:14 That the holy citie (to the which hee was going in haste to lay it euen with the ground, & to make it a common burying place) he would set at liberty.
    2Ma 9:15 And as touching the Iewes, whom hee had iudged not worthy so much as to be buried, but to be cast out with their children to be deuoured of the foules, and wild beasts, he would make them al equals to ye citizens of Athens,
    2Ma 9:16 And the holy Temple, which before he had spoiled, hee would garnish with goodly gifts, and restore all the holy vessels with many more, and out of his owne reuenew defray the charges belonging to the sacrifices:
    2Ma 9:17 Yea, and that also hee would become a Iew himselfe, and goe through all the world that was inhabited, and declare the power of God.
    2Ma 9:18 But for all this his paines would not cease: for the iust iudgement of God was come vpon him: therfore despairing of his health, he wrote vnto the Iewes the letter vnderwritten, containing the forme of a supplicatio, after this maner.
    2Ma 9:19 Antiochus king and gouernour, to the good Iewes his Citizens, wisheth much ioy, health, and prosperity.
    2Ma 9:20 If ye, and your children fare well, and your affaires be to your contentment, I giue very great thankes to God, hauing my hope in heauen.
    2Ma 9:21 As for mee I was weake, or else I would haue remembred kindly your honour, and good will. Returning out of Persia, and being taken with a grieuous disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common safety of all:
    2Ma 9:22 Not distrusting mine health, but hauing great hope to escape this sicknes
    2Ma 9:23 But considering that euen my father, at what time he led an armie into the hie countries, appointed a successor,
    2Ma 9:24 To the end, that if any thing fell out contrary to expectation, or if any tidings were brought that were grieuous, they of the land knowing to whom the state was left, might not be troubled.
    2Ma 9:25 Againe considering, how that the princes that are borderers, and neighbors vnto my kingdome, waite for opportunities, and expect what shalbe the euent, I haue appointed my sonne Antiochus king, whom I often comitted, and comended vnto many of you, when I went vp into the high prouinces, to whom I haue written as followeth.
    2Ma 9:26 Therefore I pray, and request you to remember the benefits that I haue done vnto you generally, and in speciall, and that euery man will be still faithfull to me, and my sonne.
    2Ma 9:27 For I am perswaded that hee vnderstanding my minde, will fauourably & graciously yeeld to your desires.
    2Ma 9:28 Thus the murtherer, and blasphemer hauing suffered most grieuously, as he entreated other men, so died he a miserable death in a strange countrey in the mountaines.
    2Ma 9:29 And Philip that was brought vp with him, caried away his body, who also fearing the son of Antiochus, went into Egypt to Ptolomeus Philometor.


    2Ma 13:4 But the King of kings mooued Antiochus minde against this wicked wretch, and Lysias enformed the king, that this man was the cause of all mischiefe, so that the king commanded to bring him vnto Berea, and to put him to death, as the maner is in that place.



    2Ma 1:15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entred with a small company into the compasse of the temple, they shut the temple assoone as Antiochus was come in.
    2Ma 1:16 And opening a priuie doore of the roofe, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and stroke downe the captaine, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.
     
  20. Honestly- I could go on but no one will change their mind and I feel I may well be grieved if I continue to proof text what has been considered by Jew and Christian alike for thousands of years.

    BTW- it is entirely possible I was wrong on the source of the immaculate deception but that does not change the fact that Mary had sex with Joe after Jesus was born (he knew her in the biblical sense of the Word). She was more than likely the mother of Jesus brothers also but there is no conclusive data either way on that .
    However it is certainly implied that she did as the Word of God makes a point of telling us Jesus was her "first born Son". Thus it is implied she had others or there would be no need for such distinctions. Either way she certainly did not keep her virginity after the birth of Jesus

    Mat 1:25 AndG2532 knewG1097 herG846 notG3756 tillG2193 she had brought forthG5088 herG848 firstbornG4416 son:G5207 andG2532 he calledG2564 hisG846 nameG3686 JESUS.G2424

    If it is in the Word of God it is fact.
    If it contradicts the Word of God it is not so.
     

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