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Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Feb 10, 2007.

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  1. The most crucial problem with the Roman Catholic Church is its belief that faith alone in Christ is not sufficient for salvation.

    The Bible clearly and consistently states that receiving Jesus Christ as Savior, by grace through faith, grants salvation
    (John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10,13; Ephesians 2:8-9).

    The Roman Catholic Church rejects this. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that a person must believe in Jesus Christ AND be baptized AND receive the Eucharist along with the other sacraments AND obey the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church AND perform meritorious works AND not die with any mortal sins AND etc., etc., etc.

    Catholic divergence from the Bible on this most crucial of issues, salvation, means that yes, Catholicism is a false religion. If a person believes what the Catholic Church officially teaches, he/she will not be saved. Any claim that works or rituals must be added to faith in order for salvation to be achieved is a claim that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to fully purchase our salvation.

    While salvation by faith is the most crucial issue, in comparing Roman Catholicism with the Word of God, there are many other differences and contradictions as well. The Roman Catholic Church teaches many doctrines that are in disagreement with what the Bible declares. These include apostolic succession, worship of saints or Mary, prayer to saints or Mary, the pope / papacy, infant baptism, transubstantiation, plenary indulgences, the sacramental system, and purgatory. While Catholics claim Scriptural support for these concepts, none of these teachings have any solid foundation in the clear teaching of Scripture. These concepts are based on Catholic tradition, not the Word of God. In fact, they all clearly contradict Biblical principles.

    In regards to the question “Are Catholics saved?”, this is a more difficult question to answer. It is impossible to give a universal statement on the salvation of all members of any denomination of Christianity. Not ALL Baptists are saved. Not ALL Presbyterians are saved. Not ALL Lutherans are saved. Salvation is determined by personal faith in Jesus alone for salvation, not by titles or denominational identification. Despite the unbiblical beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church, there are genuine believers who attend Roman Catholic churches. There are many Roman Catholics who have genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

    However, these Catholic Christians are believers despite what the Catholic Church teaches, not because of what it teaches. To varying degrees, the Catholic Church teaches from the Bible and points people to Jesus Christ as the Savior. As a result, people are sometimes saved in Catholic churches. The Bible has an impact whenever it is proclaimed (Isaiah 55:11). Catholic Christians remain in the Catholic Church out of ignorance of what the Catholic Church truly stands for, out of family tradition and peer pressure, or out of a desire to reach other Catholics for Christ.

    At the same time, the Catholic Church also leads many people away from a genuine faith relationship with Christ. The unbiblical beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church have often given the enemies of Christ opportunity to blaspheme. The Roman Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus Christ established. It is not a church that is based on the teachings of the Apostles (as described in the Book of Acts and the New Testament epistles). While Jesus’ words in Mark 7:9 were directed towards the Pharisees, they accurately describe the Roman Catholic Church, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”

    ...more reading and understanding

    The Catechism pronounces that, as the one true church, those who are baptized into the Catholic church are assured of heaven:

    "The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..." Pg. 320, #1257

    In the United States, that means 25 percent of the population, or over 60 million people, are headed for heaven.
    In many other countries, ninety percent or more of the population is Catholic, meaning nine out of every ten people will pass through the pearly gates. Worldwide, Catholicism claims nearly one billion members.
    You may not believe that nearly a billion people could be wrong, but look what Jesus said:
    "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14
    According to Jesus, the masses willingly accept false religious systems that lead to destruction, while few find true salvation that leads to heaven. Could 60 million Americans be considered "few?" Would anyone say that one billion people world-wide is a "few?"

    When Jesus walked the earth, a small minority followed Him. Most rejected his teachings and remained in the well established, socially accepted religions. In other words, they rejected the truth so they could keep their religious traditions. Jesus spoke the following words to those who did this:
    "...Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mark 7:9
    While Jesus was preaching, one listener who began to comprehend this truth asked Jesus:
    "Lord, are there few that be saved? And he (Jesus) said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:23-24
    When Jesus taught his disciples to go out and preach the gospel, he said:
    "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;" Matthew 9:37
    In other words, most people are lost and need a Savior, but few have the truth to go and tell them.


    Throughout this book, every Catholic doctrine has violated God's Word. Yet millions of Catholics ignore God's instructions and continue following the traditions of men, claiming to be right because they are in a religious majority. Jesus warns:
    "...whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man... And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man..." Matthew 7:24, 26
    Does God consider you a wise or foolish person? If you believe you can ignore God's commands because you are in a religious majority, you need to read Matthew 7:24-26 again.

    Jesus gives another warning to the majority who have disregarded God's Word and are counting on earning their salvation through good works:
    "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:22-23
    How is it that so many Catholics can call Jesus their Lord, yet totally disregard His instructions? Jesus asked that very same question in His Word:
    "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46
    You can ignore this question now, but what will you say when Jesus asks you the same question in person when you die and stand before Him for judgment?​
    Dave M likes this.
  2. This is clear and simple information; thank you for providing this, Chad. I learned a lot.
  3. Good food Chad

    Thank you for your input, re the roman catholic church. When I have more time on the computer, I will read it again. That is amazing 60 million.
    I just think that there must be a lot of prophecy in the Old Testament, regarding this.
    I am glad you left the roman catholic teaching too Chad. God had a much greater purpose for you, here at Talk Jesus.

  4. Great Thread, Chad!

    "The most crucial problem with the Roman Catholic Church is its belief that faith alone in Christ is not sufficient for salvation."
    "At the same time, the Catholic Church also leads many people away from a genuine faith relationship with Christ"

    I completely agree with you. And the sad thing is, is that many Catholics get confused about Jesus when there are so many other strings attached to salvation. It totally messes people up.
  5. I spent the first forty-six years of my life (I'm 70 yrs old) in the Roman Catholic Church and for the most part, I share your beliefs on this subject. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible AND Church Tradition are of equal importance. I no longer give tradition equal billing with Scripture.

    The Catholic Church I grew up in elevated priests and nuns to the point where they could not be reached by the rest of us, nor could they reach us. I remember times in Catholic grade school when the teacher (a nun) would announce in the morning that Father so-and-so (the pastor) was going to visit our class that day and everything must look nice and we must all behave. It was like God himself was coming and he was going to pour fire and brimstone on us if he didn't like what he saw.

    Catholics were, in effect, insolated from private Scripture study because the message we received from our leaders was that Scripture study was the Church heirarchy's responsibility alone. And the lay people accepted that.

    Praise God that the winds of change are blowing through the Catholic Church at long last. Change will be slow, however, thanks to heirarchial resistence. Its unfortunate that the pedophile scandal had to be the catalyst for at least some of that change to be accelerated.

  6. Thanx brother it has helped me too, even though i knew catholics are false and against the Word Of God...Gbu brother
  7. I never meant to imply that Catholics are false and against the Word of God. Yes, they are mistaken, but that is because they have been misled. They are not opposed to God's Word, but, they do say that church tradition is equal in authority to the Bible.

  8. Being Catholic for some time now and teaching 9th graders about their faith can say that there are many misunderstandings regarding our faith.

    Since the entire catechism is online for all to see there can be no denial of what it is says. However, it does not follow that one can take a single quote and take from it meaning without reference or connection to other sections or the whole. Faith and all that we believe is not a simple thing and single sentences often fail to convey the entire picture.
  9. I, too grew up as a catholic and just recently (3 years or so) have become more and more educated with its faults. However, like ed said, Catholics are simply misled, as you can see they are taught through tradition and are led to believe that is the right way. I went to catholic elementary and middle school and I can assure you everybody i was involved with were very nice people and believed Jesus Christ was their savior. How else would I know what i know now if it wasnt for leaerning about Jesus in Catholic school? However, as Chad mentioned, they do insist that their traditions and rules are the correct way in "getting into heaven".

    So in no way should anybody condemn Catholics and call them wrong, they are simply just misled. All we can do is pray that many Catholics will realize the only requirement for salvation is belief and faith in Jesus Christ, and all of those sacraments and rules are simply old traditions.

    Peace and God Bless
  10. While not all agree with what the Church teaches and am certainly not making a call for them to here, it is still wrong to perpetuate half-truths and misunderstandings about what others believe.
    At least explain what is believed with more understanding and then make refute rather than present a misrepresentation and refute nothing.
  11. Believe me, I am not putting down Catholics in any way, for as it was stated before Catholics DO believe that Jesus Christ is their savior. However, some examples of what Roman Catholic traditions are like what Chad said - Catholics tend to, and not all of them i assume for i dont want to make a generalization, but for the most part being once a Catholic and having family that are strong believers in the Catholic faith, they tend to keep statues of saints and look to/pray to certain saints for certain things. Now this is obviously not good, for one of the commandments states : Thou shall not have any god before me. So obviously you shant pray to any other or worship any other being besides the one and only GOD.

    Thats just to name one, but others as Chad already mentioned, believe that if you do not go to confession and confess your sins to the priest, than you are at fault. The Catholic tradition is that the priest "takes the position of Jesus Christ and forgives you of your sins".. Now when i was a Catholic this was the most disturbing practice, to me, of them all. Obviously nobody can ever take the place of such a divine being as Jesus Christ. So right there to even think about imitating/ taking the place of Jesus is not good. Rather our sins should simply be between us and the Lord. Why cant we just confess our sins to God? Nobody else has the authority to judge us...

    Also within Catholic laws, you cannot participate in recieving the Eucharist if you have previously missed church. They put so much faith and belief in the fact that this priest, through divine intervension, has converted unleaven bread into the body of Jesus. Some churches do this simply as a symbol of reinacting the Last Supper, but Catholics are led to believe this is Jesus' body they are digesting. When i was little i remember my priest strictly telling us that we MUST believe this. I remember sitting in church trying soo hard to believe that what i was eating was Jesus' body... thats not something a little child should be worrying about. Jesus, to my knowledge, is the only one who posses the power to perform such outstanding miracles. I know the disciples, too, performed miracles, with the Holy Spirits' help, but something to the nature of turning bread into the body of the one and only Jesus Christ, is simply unfathomable.

    Now I really do not intend to express all of the RC Church's faults here, and maybe certain Catholics are different, who knows really? All I am trying to say is it is clearly evident that most of, not all, but most of the Roman Catholic Church's beliefs are tradition and not all that accurate.

    Remember, God never intended for their to be a specific religion governing all of his people, atleast not to my knowledge (please somebody inform me if i am mistaken), but He, being the loving Father He is, sent Jesus to us so that we, being the sinful bunch of people we are, could be saved from the darkness of this world. Jesus' disciples then went out and proclaimed the good news of Jesus. But God never said "create such n such a church and everyone who does not follow the church's traditions and ways shall be condemned." Thats all, PEOPLE thenceforth created churches which I assume were fine at the time, but over the years they have clearly become corrupt and it just seems right to simply hold strong belief in Jesus Christ and not associate oneself with foolish traditions and practices.

    Now obviously I do not claim to know everything and I do not judge those who hold different beliefs than me. Im just stating my beliefs and facts on a certain topic, and do not intend to hurt anybody.
    Please if I have anything wrong, feel free to correct me, I, too, am still learning.

    And also, any half-truths or misunderstandings that I have mentioned or anybody else has mentioned in their posts, please tell me so that I will understand more clearly.

    Peace and God Bless:boy_hug:
    Dave M likes this.
  12. I have a simple question for you brother, assuming you will respond politely and humbly. If you know the faults of the Catholic system, why do you continue being a Catholic and not just a bible believing *Christian* without the traditions/system/faults of the Catholic church? I'm just curious that is all. Now, we're not talking about people being imperfect or misled. We're talking one who acknowledges a system of traditions and false teachings, yet hasn't left it and gone straight to being a Bible believing Christian. In other words, right to the core of GOD's word and right to Jesus Himself without any system.
    Dave M likes this.
  13. Lol, thank you Chad, thats the jist of what i was trying to say, you obvoiusly explained a bit better.
  14. If I saw the faults some imagined then this Church would never have attracted me, so I cannot answer that question. Perhaps you misunderstood.

    My point was that one cannot make a false representation of the beliefs of another then make a meaningful argument against that representation. It would be no different than my proclaiming all Protestants believe in flying pink elephants and then say here is the scripture proving elephants cannot fly.

    In short, was politely, humbly and with a lot of restraint suggesting that the characterizations of Catholics beliefs being presented in your first post are false and that it would be better to refute the Church’s actual teachings rather than a misrepresentation of it.
  15. My original post was not false at all. As a matter of fact, it has nothing to do with each individual "catholic" believer but the system itself. Perhaps you mis-read or misunderstood. The post is about the system, not each catholic's belief. They are catholics, therefore we can assume they believe in the catholic teachings. Does this not make sense to you at all?

    There's a good reason why every person in this thread agrees to my post. Why? It is full of truth. Its about exposing false teachings, not condemning each catholic individual or judging them. Its for the sake of the 'misled' so they may see the false teachings of the catholic system.

    I come from a huge catholic family, was sent to catholic school for 13 years so I do not speak ignorantly or in vain.
    Dave M likes this.
  16. #16 EuphoricForest, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
    Brother, what misrepresentations were mentioned??
    Seriously, Id like to know for my better understanding.

    And another thing, comparing what is clear beliefs of the Catholic Church with a Protestants belief in pink flying elephants makes no sense at all.

    Im not sure if you know this, but Chad was a catholic, for quite some time too. So was I, and spiritleded. We all attended catholic school, to my knowledge, so everything that we've said were accounts of the teachings in these schools and churches. Now maybe the Catholic churches that we went to were fake or something, because obviously they dont relate to what you claim to believe in..

    oh well, i wish you would explain more about the false beliefs that we supposedly stated...

    Peace and God Bless
  17. Sorry, maybe poorly done. It was a comparison. Whether I truly believed all Protestants taught a belief in pink flying elephants or not does not matter. The point is that the claim is not true. So any argument I might make against Protestants believing in such creatures is false because the premise that you believe such things is false.
    That is the same thing the writer in the first post is doing regarding some Catholic beliefs.
  18. #18 DrBubbaLove, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
    Chad and Euphoric,
    Cannot speak to what you two were taught in Catholic schools or why your understanding of Catholicism is flawed. We all know plenty of people that went through school and did not really get everything that was taught. We also have all experienced teachers that were inept in getting particular messages across or even distorting the message for their own reasons. Not saying this was the case here, but what is true everywhere else is no less true in Catholic school.

    On closer reading of the original post by Chad, it appears to be a quote from some unknown book and unknown author. We can only speculate what that persons motives might be for writing what they did.

    Suffice to say Catholics believe in faith and works being necessary, so saying Catholics do not believe in faith alone is correct. As to whether either view is scriptural or not is debated, but at best all one could claim is that such a belief does not agree with one’s own understanding of scripture, not that Catholics do not use scripture to support belief. We could equally cite verses supporting works being necessary as well as faith.

    A representation claimed to be the "official" position of the Church on salvation is made in the original post which is unfounded. While it may seem to a child being taught or outsiders that Catholics see obtaining salvation as getting a litany of check marks, that statement is not an "official" position or an accurate one. Since the Church teaches salvation being possible for even non-Christians, it cannot be that the Church sees only people believing as Catholics do, as in the never ending list presented in Chad's first post, are "saved". So a very inaccurate picture, perhaps deliberately is being painted in regards to Catholic beliefs on salvation in order to refute it, which makes the refute false rather than our beliefs.

    Will skip next section, the pronouncement part of the first post, as it just makes a strings of claims against the Church rather than stating what Catholics believe and then refuting it. Not this, can’t be that, not this ...etc.

    Dropping down a statement is made regarding Baptism and then a section of the Catechism is quoted to support that claim. For those wanting to join, the Church accepts the Baptism of believers from most Protestant faiths, so the implication being made that the Church teaches only those Baptized into the Church are saved is a blatantly false. As a technical point, any valid Baptism joins one to the body of believers, so it could not be possible for the Church to believe that while also excluding those with valid Baptisms performed outside the Catholic Church.
    Also as already pointed out, the Church teaches the possibility of even non-Christians going to heaven, so it cannot be also true that it teaches no one outside the Catholic Church is saved as implied by the whole section where the book gives percentages of non-Catholic.

    Furthermore that section of the Catechism quoted is discussing the necessity of Baptism, not salvation. So while connected to salvation and true the Church sees Baptism as necessary, it obviously does not follow that the Church teaches one has to be Catholic, or immersed only in the Church or even Christian as the only means for salvation, which is implied in this whole section of the first post.

    Obviously the writer of that book quoted in Chad’s first post either did not bother to look up salvation in the Catechism or ignored it all together. The choice to find and present a single quote on the necessity of Baptism that supported a false representation of the Catholic view of salvation, a view that can conveniently then be easily refuted (commonly called strawman) is either an attempt to deceive, a case of blindly finding only what one wants to find or represents extremely lazy and possibly inept research.

    The remainder of the post contains more pronouncements rather than stating what Catholics believe.

  19. I cannot read your one giant paragraph. Please consider editing it so its readable instead of one long paragraph.
  20. I would like to ask a further question about faith and works.

    My understanding of the Bible is that our salvation is granted to us only by God's grace. The only way to access this grace is by faith.

    So faith alone!

    But James says "faith without works is dead" (2:26). There is no salvation without good works because good works are the mark of a true living faith.

    So works are necessary!

    I hope I have expressed this clearly and accurately. How close is this understanding to the teaching of the Catholic church?

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